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On this tape two names are written; James Lee and ducius Vaughn. In the first

interview the person is not identified. Therfore, I will use the initial

I for the person being interviewed.


F; Are you an United States citizen?

I: Yes

F: How is it that you are living there?phC7Ae (e0tN dNInmn)

1: My father was born there and my mother's parents were born there, but they

were living in Miami at the time that she was born. So, I guess that she is

a citizen of the United States. My father is a Bahamian but he is naturalized.

My brother and myself we were naturalized.

F: What about you? (This is directed to the second person. Both people are being

interviewed at the same time. This person will be designated by the initial

V assuming that he is Mr. Vaughn.)

V: I was born in Birmingham, Alabama. I do not remember living there. We lived

about 54 miles southwest of Tuskaloosa, Alabama for twelve years. We moved

to Jacksonville, Florida in 1961.

F: Why do you not remember living there then?

V: I do not remember living in BIrmingham--where I was born.

F: I see outside of Tuskaloosa is what you remember. Do your parents live in

Jacksonville now?

V: Yes, it is just my mother.

F: Did you come here straight from high-school?

V: RIght.

F: What school ?

V: Stanton High.

F: New Stanton?

V: Yes 1










THe persons have been identified now and the first one being interviewed is

James Lee. Therefore, I will use the initial L to designate him. Also,

I will put additional spaces between the answers of the two individuals for

the aid of the reader.

F: What about you, James?

L: I was in service. I went to the Navy for two years. Two years after I

finished high-school I just read and worked and bummed around. I came here

after the Navy. I came from Mays HIgh.

F: You came here from Mays High and that is where?

L: Golds, FLorida outside of Miami.

F: Did you come here straight from the service?

L: Yes

F: As a Freshamn?

L: Yes

F: You have been here ever since?

h: Right

F: Where else had you considered going to school?



V: It is ironic but no where. THe school almost pressured me into going to

Florida A & M because I got a scholarship there. THe kids that passed the

Florida State entrance exams Wh* they automatically got scholarships to

Florida A & M. I did not want to go there. So, early in the winter of my

senior year I applied here. I was waiting my whole term to be accepted.

It was like in the middle of the spring before I was accepted.

F: What did you make on your senior placement tests?

V: About 319.



F; What is your major?

Y: Jounalism and broadcasting









F: What year are you in?

E: I am a junior.

F: Did you get a scholarship to come here?

E: No

F: You gave up a scholarship at A & M?

V: Yes

F: WHy is that?

V: I just had this preconcieved notion that I wanted to come here. SOme of my

closest friends were considering going to Florida State and Florida Atlantic.

It was sort of like you were in this little clique and nobody wanted to go

to FLorida A & M. THere was a small college right up the street from where

I lived, Edward Waters. My uncle thought that I should go there. THat was

just out of the question.

F: Did you want to go to a white school?

V: Not necessarily a white school.

F: Well, seeing the ones that you named.

V: I wanted to go to school close to home. When I was in the tenth and eleventh

grade, I had heard a lot of talk about Howard University. It was just in my

mind that they were good schools, good black schools. IN my senior year I

just made up my mind. I did not want to go to school in Tallahassee. If I had

gone to Tallahassee, it was like going to Florida A & M. I just decided to come

here. I did not know where the money was going to come from or anything. It

just happened that I got here.



F: What about you, James, how did you decide to come here?

L: It is really sort of funny. This black guy that I went to high-school with and

we never did get along too well. He came here and I decided to come hereto

irritate him.

F: That is really a well concieved reason for coming here.

3










L: That is the reason. I had thought about Howard University in Washington, D.C.

That was too expensive. Those were the only, two that I applied to, Howard

and Florida.

F: Did you get accepted at Howard?

L: No, I never did because there was one thing. I was still in the service when

I sent out my application. THey had all of the forms but they wanted my

commanding officer's recommendation and I thought that this was irrelevant

so I dropped it. When I was in high-school, I thought that the best bet was

black schools. Being as poor as we were I could not go to school. My parents

w~ted to send me to Miami-Dade like most of my friends. We had this thing

like we were so good and we had to have the best. LIke they were going to

place like HOward, Tuskegee and things like that. I did not want to go any-

way.

F: What did you hear about the University of Florida?



V: I hadot heard one thing. The first time that I came to Gainesville was in

the spring of my senior year. My business classto something that the

Agriculture Department was giving. It was my first look at the campus.

It just reaffirmed my desire to come. Even that late, I had not been accepted.

I had recieved letters from the University saying that they had been requesting

my transcript but the school would not send it.

F: WHy was this?

V: I just thought of some of my own reasons like. My French teacher had been

counseling me not to come here because the social life would be dull and what

would I do on Friday and Saturday nights. I would be extremely depressed by

Sunday evening and things like that. I guess that nobody thought it really

possible. I do not know how many black students from New Stanton were here.

Also, it was this thing that I had been given this scholarship and I ought to










have accepted it. It took my mother to go out to the school to really raise

cane.

F: Did they actually put pressure on you to accept the scholarship from A & M?

V: Yes

F: How much of a scholarship was it?

V: I am not sure. I think that it was a $1,000 to start off with and after that

I do not know if you get anything after your freshman year or not.



F: What about you James, what had you heard about the University of Florida?

L: The only thing that I had heard it was not really about the University of

Florida. NObody knew that much about it. I talked to some friends who had

been up around the Gainesville area. THey just said that central Florida

was bad racially wise and things like that.

F: You actually had not heard much about the University?

L: Well, I was not afraid of the racial bit because I had been in the service.

Regardless of what you hear about how well relations are there still are some

things that you come in contact with. I had experienced this and it did not

bother me.

F: Are you getting any kind of financial aid here?

V: Yes, I have a Federal guaranteed bank loan.

F: That is all?

V: Yes

F: How much is that ?

V: In all I have gotten about two thousand dollars.

F: You do not have any of the other kinds of things?

V: No

F: Have you applied?

V: In my FreshaEn year, I did not know anything. THere was not any information

4









that I could get from my family. THe counseling service at my school was like

nil. Only the ones that were the favorites were counseled. I just did not know

anything about applying for financial aid or anything like that. It was not

until the fall of this year that I got some type of aid.

F: You were here two years without getting anything?

V: Right

F: How did you get along?

V: Well, I have not ever lived with my father but he assisted me. I worked my

whole senior year and I had $800.00 saved up. I had not thought about using

it for school, I had just saved it. I had that to start off with. I was

constantly in communication with him up until the fall of this year. I had

been getting enough to pay room and board and my books and my registration

fee and that was it. My mother was working sort of regularly those pass two

years and she was sending my money.

F: What does she do?

V: She works in private homes.



F: Are you getting any kind of aid, James?

L: The G.I. Bill and recently I got on National Defense.

F: Loan?

L: Yes

F: How much?

L: So far, I have only used $500 because my G.I. Bill has been enough.

F: How much do you get on that?

L: With the increase $230 a month.

F: That is good, I did not realize it was that much. Do you have any children?

L: No, I am married but we are separated.

F: Is that why you are getting more?

L: Yes, because I am married.










F: What is social life like for black students on this campus?

V: It is completely opposite from what this particular teacher in high-school

had told me. I have not had a dull moment since I have been here. THere

is always something going on whether you want to get in on it or not. It is

there for you to get in on. When you are talking about the established social

life like fraternities and things like that, I just did not have that in mind

from the beginning. I do not consider that. As for parties and going places,

I am always going. I am always doing something.

F: Do you agree with that, Jim?

L: Yes. I guess that every black student goes through this phase. You know, he

comes here. The black students that I have associated with it starts off by

goint over to the Union and playing cards and things like that. THen as the

black student population increased, they had a lot of house parties. NOw, they

have progressed to dorm parties, and parties with people from out of the

community and things'like this. As you get into upper division, you level off

to parties with a few people that you really like. I guess that this is

because as you go higher up in college as black students you find that you

can not really be yourself with black students because there are so many

different myths and modes of behavior that they expect of yop. I find that

it is easier to be myself with white students because they're more open-

minded then blacks are.

F: What issues are you talking about?

L: Social behavior and the types of clothes: that you wear. The way that you say

things and the way that you act and the way that you look and things like that.

F: Can you identify with what he is talking about?



V: Right.

F: What do you mean?










V: Well, you have seen us in ANthony's and you see very few blacks in there.

Like somebody asked us where did you go Friday night and we had gone to

ANthony's and had a few beers and listened to the music and just talked.

TALK, you know, and stuff like that. THe thing about just having a general

conversation about school, life in general. THe thing is that I find is

discussing ideas. THe majority of the blacks that I have come in contact with

have trouble discussing ideas. You are always going to run into conflict when

you are looking for somebody to talk to about things that you are interested

in. It is always leveled down to say no more then three people.



L: It is being an individual. Blacks are not like that. If you are not part of

the group then you are labeled something and the current term now is like

an "Oreo". Any black person or individual that does not adhere to the black

group's philosophy then he is an "Oreo."



V: It is not a conscious thing. It is sort of sub-conscious. Like you are not

with your own kind and your kind does not do it this way. I do not see it

this way. When I go some place I am with my own kind because I am doing what

I like to do. I am with the kind of people that do what I do. THen I am with

my own kind. I do not see it as race. I see it as a state of mind.

F: Are you saying then for the most part that there are certain expectations of

black students that we have always ot to be black? Black students have to

always talking about black problems rather then just being a regular student

and doing the things that students do?

V: Right. Now, we discuss issues pertaining to black people and black students.

But it is not all the time and we find time to do other things. It is like

some of hhe kids it is a constant thing of black this and black that. I do

not see any need for talking about it all of the time.

7








J
L: To give you an example of how ridiculous it is. One night we went to the

movie last week some time and we were coming back and we met this guy who

goes to Santa Fe who is a fairly gb friend. He asked us where we were

coming from and we told him the movies and he said that you know that black

people do not do things like that.

F: Was he white?

L: No, he is black. It is ridiculous. THe same guy told Lucius one night that

black people do not wear clothes like he wears or something like that.

F: What did he say?



V: I sort of made? a big joke out of it. I would rather make them'feel

ridiculous then to fly off and get angry. I said something like what do you

mean that black people do not wear it. I am wearing it and I am black.

I said, "Are you trying to sterotype blacks?" I said, "I am trying to get

away from sterotyping. YOu gethad when whites sterotype you. So, why do you

try to sterotype me?"

F: What did he do?

V: Luckily, another guy there was dressed similar. Well, not really similar but

he had on things that blacks do not dress that way either. So, he came in and

took over the argument and before it was over theee was about four or five

of us on to him for saying something like that. I say that a few of the blacks

will not take an attack upon their individuality. When they see the opportunity

to chasutse somebody for attacking someone else about it then they will.

F: Do you feel that very many blacks feel this way. THat thpy have been

classified by the blacks for not being conformed?

V: A majority do but yet a majority will not come out and say it.

F: Do you mean/hat the majority is pressured by some small minority?

L: It is these super-militants who are the most vocal. I guess that the others

8









are afraid to counter any arguments with them, ever thought their arguments

are illogical and things like this.

F: Well, have you been attacked? Do people tell you that you are an "Oreo?"

L: They have never said it to me. THey do not say anything to us because it

does not do them any good. THey know that I am going to be an individual.

I am going to stay just like I am. I ignore them for the most part.



V: It seems like some of them see us as being different and I feel different.

It is like we have a different attitude.



L: If they say anything, it is when they get into their little group or some-

thing like that.

V: I have been around where blacks have been singled out and called this and

called that. One specific case, we were talking in frontof the graduate

library one day, and one black guy told another one that he was going to

come over to his dorm, he and his boys and give it to him for being so

apathetic. The said apathetic about what? The other one said apathetic

about everything. He could not pinpoint any particular thing. He was just

going to beat him up for being apathetic.

F: Who said that?"

V: Are you asking me for names?

F: Yes

V: This guy named David Freeman. He is a fairly good friend but there is only

so far that you can go, you know.

F: Do you associate with blacks at all? In other words, when you are doing the

things that blacks are supposed to be doing?

V: I can adjust to any situation.

F: Do you party with them?

V: Yes










L: I cna not stand any lack of open-mindedness. It sort of depresses me. So, I

find myself like going to ANthony's more and staying in my room and listening

to records. THe black person that I am the most friendly with is Lucius.



V: You know that ou go to these parties and dances and speaking for myself like

you know, like a few people. I would say me, James, two girls, Delores and

Marsha and a few others who are the so-called life of the party. Always keeping

everything up ad dancing and having a general good time. You are looked onas

being that way and that is the purpose that you serve when you go to a party.



F: That is the way that you use to be?

V: Yes, now when I go to a party I just look around and say to myself what am I

doing here. I do not know. I just feel depressed. All that I do is just

stand there and watch the people dancing and look at the things going on around

me. So now, I go to very few parties. It was the thing that when there was a

party black students just automatically went. Now, I select the ones that I

go to.

F: What about dating here? Are you satisfied with thedating situation?

V: I do not desire to date that much. I like to go out with some girl but I do

not like to pick any particular person. YOu know, to have steady dates with.

Like there a few girls that do different things that you might choose to go

to a certain place with. I can not find any particular black girl on campus

that I would like to go steady with. THere were maybe two but now there are

not any.

F: Have they left?

V: No, I have just changed. I have changed my opinion of them. One girl we were

sort of like going together in high-school and we knew each other from the

ninth grade. She is here now. I do not know how to describe it but I just do

10









not know her.

F: How has she changed?

V: Well matures to a certain degree. I saw her as the quiet, submissive, type

person. SOmeone like me who I can get along with. No one who is going to

tell me what to do or overpower me or something like that. That is how I

saw her, but as of now, it is like anytime that I am around her. I do not

know whether this is conscious or not. There are things that she does and says

that I see as being insulting. She just has this attitude. THis other girl

the girl thatI was talking about formerly, Marsha Westbrook and another girl,

Delores Hillsman. James said that I had chosen her out of all of the other

black girls and said that this was the one girl and placed her above all of

the others. It just happened that she and I would always be out togehter.

I do not like to call it dating because I do not knoyhy. Anyway, we would

always sort of be out together and anywhere that you go if you saw me then you

would see Delores or something like that. Everything now has sort of gotten

all jumbled up. I see it as her making the change. If there is any change

with me it is not overt because I will keep it within me. Sometimes people

might see it if I want them to see it hut if I do not want anyone to see the

change then they will not know it. THese changed overtly.



F: In what kinds of ways are you not getting along with these same people, James?

L: It is like black people have this thing. IF a black is intelligent, or

fairly intelligent, you know, this sort of puts him above the other blacks.

It is similar to a class thing. Delores, she feels like she is the girl.

Like she is untouchable to the other girls and she is above the other girls.

She is the top girl to all of the boys, and that she can not be touched.

Since, Marsha moved in with her, Marsha has changed. THey think that they are

the best girls and like everyone else is under them.












V: Marsha had a white roommate when she first moved here from Junior College.

Every night, I would say, from September up until the first of January,

if I did not call her she would call me. If I was not in her room, then she

would be over to my place. On week-ends if I did not go get her, she would

come get me to go out somewhere. Like now,-I am over here in my room. I

have too much to offer anybody and when your chance comes around then I will

let you know. I feel likewise that I have too much to dffer and I do not

wait for anybody. Because when I am here to give what I feel that I have to

give and people just do not accept it as it is then to bad for them and I go

on.

F: What kinds of ways do you guys see that you have changed from most of the

black students here? What kinds of points of contention do you have?



V: Most of us have changed like the kind of change that you are talking about

some of them have gone to worse. When I look at the purpose of a University

education, it is not reading what you previously know. It is not to adapt old

values to new values it is a complete change. I can pick out any particular

black ma9nd say that he would not get both sides of any issueor any question

unless it is something that is realkimportant. If it is in the middle, some-

thing that you can not tell whether it is real important to him or not. From

there on he will not compromise, he will not think it over, he will just do

things on the spur of the moment, and then look for the consequanses afterwards.



L: For the most part, they could know that they are wrong and that what they say

does not make any sense at all. It is all illogical and full of fallacies and

things but not even for the sake of argument. It is that they just will not

accept anything from anybody and they will not hear any other side.


I










V: The best way to keep conflicts down is not necessarily avoid them, but you

get an attitude to where when you meet them you are still friends and you can

still talk to them. You can interact with them but there is still your way

from them. You can still go your own way. You will be missed. I am missed

from the group when I am notthere. I still find a need to get away.

F: Obviously, you guys are presenting your side. What are people saying about

you? THey say that you have changed and what do they say is wrong with you?



L: The people that talk about us like to mention David Freeman. He said that

of all the blacks here on campus he liked me and Lucius more because we are

always ourselves and we do not have to go through any changes for anybody.

We tell them what we want them to know and it is coming straight from within.

There is no phoniness or anything like that. We are honest.



V: The thing is that they do not dislike us. I do not dislike any of them. I

just do not care be bothered with some of them.

F: You do not take any crap from any of the militants?

V: No, none.

L: You know most of them when they first come here and you see the changes that

they have gone through. It is not really them. I do not know what it is like.

There is only one militant that I have any respect for and that is Mitchell

Dasher. He respects your opinion as a human being. He respects you for

being an individual. His cadres or followers they are just following him

because militancy is the current thing for blacks.

F: Who else is considered a leader?

L: Ntiy/0 y



V: Well, like James said he is the only person that we will listen to at any









particular time. Some of his so called followers and protegees just turn

me off. Another student, Sam Taylor, I respect him more them I do Mitch

Dasher. When you speak of militancy, you have to think of what way you are

talking about. If you are speaking about ranting and raving about what is

going on, it is the type person who's mind is what it should be. If his mind

is right with him and he knows what he is going to do and thinks right. I

can respect a person like that. When I tell a person that my mind is right,

I do not have to always demonstrate to you that I think black and that I

believe black. I say tha can you net accept the fact that I act the way that

I am. I do not take any stuff from the black side no more so then I do from

the white side. I can not stand an attack upon me from whites no more so then

I would from blacks. They accept the part where I will not take it from

whites but when it comes to not taking any stuff from blacks then you run

into trouble.

F: What were you going to say Jim?





L: I was going to say thatsmost of the blacks that considered themselves militant

on this campus, the/do not believe that. You can not call yourself militant

unless you are like them and rant and rave. When this strike thing was on,

we marched with it. Lucius and I were the only blacks that we saw in the whole

march. Later, two of the guys that consider themselves real militant came by

and sort of jeered and laughed at us but we ignored them. We had not said

anything to them. Some of the kids were leaving to go to O'Connell. One of

the guys said to burn the mother's house down. I said,"Here is my candle, you

light the fire." I am not going to be a fool and the first fool that does it

I am going to laugh at. He is suppose to advocate these things and yet he

isnot militant enough to do them. He wants someone else to do it. Then he

could glorify himself that such things have happened. He realized what could

14









happen to him as a result of committing such an unlawful act or something

like that. HE does not want to be the one to do it. He feels safe within

this group.



V: In other words, after the fool has lit the fire, he is going to come back and

tell everyone who asks him look what we did.

F: WHy do you think that this thing about becoming a militant has become so much

in vogue? I mean, I have heard things said that people should wear combat

boots.

V: I was going to get to that. We were at a BSU meeting. This guy said the the

Defense Minister was going to do something so put on your combat boots, your
-7
dungarees, your fatigue shirt and your ppium ou know these wide brim hats.

That is the dress for the militants.

F: That is the sort of thing that Mitch wears and Don Dixon.

V: Yes. In other words, when you dress this way then youare ready. It does not

matter what you think inside or what is in your mind or anything like that.

You are militant because you look like one. So, somebody said why should I
7
buy an (a pum) and get a fatigue shirt from the ROTC Building and get combat

boots to go on this thing? They said that was what militants wore.

F: Did you say anything about that?

V: I very seldom do. It is futile. Somebody makes a statement and you offer some

suggestion that is not necessarily opposite his view. You might just suggest

a revision or discussion of it. You are just setting yourself up to be shot

down. Somebody may say that they believe that we ought to go over and over-

take Tigert Hall and overrun it and burn it down. THen somebody might say

well what would it get you.and after you take it over what are you going to

do wit4t? There is not an answer to your question. THere is an attack upon

your person. You get something about someone is going to attack you because

they do not like you for saying what you said. YOur question is never

15










answered.

F: Do you think that your views are that atypical or that more black students feel

like you do and cover it up?

V: That is my feeling. I would not say that a majority. I say that more then

half would like to be individuals and see themselves as individuals. Less then

half would accept individuality in anyone else. It is like I am over here and

I do what I want to do. I am going to act the way that I want to act.

The other person is on the other side and he is acting the way that he feels

he should act and this other individual is going to see something wrong with

the way that he is acting, and is going to cut him down for it.

F: Do you know any black students that got the questionnaire?

V: Yes.

F: They have not filled it out?

V: Yes

F: Why have they not filled it out?

V: For the same reason that t did not fill mine out. I am doing a survey for my

Arts and Science class and for American Status 454 Senior Seminar. I gave

50 black students questionnaires. Unlike you, I did not mail them I took them

to them personally and I told them that I would pick them up. So, that had

been about three and a half weeks ago and out of fifty I have nine back now.

I expect to get maybe nine more and that is it. I told Sam about this and that

I was not getting too much co-operation from the black students which I had

expected. I had thought this to myself and often I do not verbalize what

I feel inside. He told me that out of those fifty that I could expect about

25 back. So, I went over to one of the dorms and I ask the guy if he had not

filled the questionnaire out for me. He said no., He said that do you not

remember that Sam said that out of fifty questionnaries you could only expect

to get twenty-five back. I said yes. He said that he was going to be among

16










those twenty-five that did not turn them back. He actually told me this. He

did not have any respect for my feelings. I was so mad that I just stood up

there and looked at him.

F: Why are most people not filling it out?

V: I see it as primarily laziness.

F: Yes, but they.. would give better reasons then that. What are these reasons?

V: One said that it was too personal. In other words, if I tell you all of this

stuff somebody might find out all of this. If I put down my true feelings,

somebody might find out that I said it and that would leave me open to

attack. So, I skid that if it was your true feelings why should you care

who knows about them? He said that he could not do that. THat was David

Freeman. He is a militant in his words and he prides himself in being an

individual. He likes to go his own way. He likes to be around James and I

when he wants some diversionary conversation or something like that. SO,

I just expected him to go through the thing and just tear it up. But, not

so because somebody might find out what I said.

F: Sometimes people seem to be very militant and very brave when they are in

crowds and they come on about being so tough and not taking any stuff, and

then they say that they are not going to fill that out because they might

get into trouble.

V: Well, you can see this with Mitch Dasher and his group. Mitch can go his own

way but his four followers have to have at least one of the others there. If

one is not there then he is always looking for him. He can not talk about

anything to any person unless he has this back-up to confirm it and to make

it right.

F: Do you go to the BSU meetings?

V: No

F: Do you James?

L: I have classes on Thursday nights and that is when they are scheduled.

17










F: Can you think af any changes that they ought to have at this school that

maybe would make it better for blacks?

V: The first thing there should be more black students.

F: James, do you agree?

L: Yes

F: Why do more black students not come here?



L: A lot of the black kids here say that they told them the black kids in their

communities not to come here. THey get opinion from the black students that

are here of the school. --

F: Do you mean that black students that are here tell black students not to

come?

L: Some of them.



V: I might tell somebody that like man-



L: The stories in the press about the University of Florida being racist that

has had a lot to do with it.



V: Like this kid in my neighborhood, is hung up on fraternities and he wants to

come to the University of Florida. I say to him that is one thing that is going

to have to change. I say that you might be accepted into one or two but you

will not have much of a choice. I see that as a little thing. But if he

really wants to come here for the purpose that he should come here for to get

a degree, then it would not matter.

F: Why is it that almost every black student that I have talked to has said that

the major change should be more black students and almost all black students

are discouraging other black students from coming here?

L: For the sake of numbers so that they could feel safe.










F: How are they going to get them here^if they discourage them from coming.

V: I think that it is the University's responsibility. They had this thing

that we were legally kept out or to say that we were actively kept out.

The laws were passed then against discrimination and acceptance was

guaranteed by federal law. Then you have this thing about equal chance of

admission with white students. How can we have an equal chance at admission

when they have a hundred year jump on us? So, why can not the University say

go out actively and get black students the same way that they actively kept

them out?

F: They say also that most black students are not qualified to come. What do you

think about that?

E: I do not accept that.



V: There is this guy who is a good friend on mine, Vincent Norman. He graduated

in 1966 and he would have liked to come to the University of Florida. He

was a good football player. The coaches at the high-school and even from all

over the city came to the University and tried to get him an athletic scholar-

ship but it was out of the question. So, he got one to another university.

So, what choice it that.

F: Did he make a high score on the senior placement test.

V: Yes, he did. He was real smart.

F: He did not get an offer here at all? When was that.

V: It was in 1966. It was surprising because his main interests were athletics.

He could play basketball. HE was quarterback on the New Stanton football team

in his senior year. Yet, still he was one of the brightest black kids that I

have known. He just ate up the tests. The test that Indiana sent to him he

just went right through that. He was going to go into denistry. I guess that

it was kind of stiff graduating from New Stanton and the science background

19











that he got there was not up to par. So, he had to changed and I think that

he is in Marketing now. He will graduate this June.

F: Do you think that they ought to have different admission standards for black

students?

L: I think that they should



V: From the beginning, I think that there should a limited open admissions

F: Do you agree with that, James?

L: Yes and this thing about the tests too. I think that should be abolished

completely. I think that it is a fallacy because it is biased to a certain

extent. I know a lot of black kids that have not done well on the test

but they are every bit as qualified as I am and in ways are more qualified.

F: You say that but do you actually mean open admissions to anybody?

V: Well, take this thing that James is talking about, the test. This thing is

not biased about blacks in general it is also biased against lower class

whites. Because there are some things on the test that only upper and middle

class kids would learn anything about. Like eating arrangements and stuff

like that and the way that you act at dinner.

F:, Do they ask questions like that?

V: I remember one question?

F: What was it?

V: I think that it read that during a formal meal when you have all of this

stuff set off for you which spoon do you use first or which dish do you use

first, you know. Do you start with the one closest to the plate or do you

start with the one fartherest from the plate.

F: Are you sure?

V: I can remember that.










L: The Princeton Testing Service use in their study of the high-school testing

service was that something like association you are quiet and reserve in

church something like that. For most black kids, most of them attend the

Baptist Church where hardly anything is quiet. THere is a lot of loud singing.



V: There was a question like that on the test about etiquette in church and is it

better to just sit and listen to the pastor then to get up and walk around.

I can not find any black kid who can answer that correctly. There is this

preacher-congregation response. He says something and the congregation

responds. Somebody might jump up and be whooping and hollering and there is

always this constant commotion. The ushers helping someone off the floor

who fainted and stuff like this.



L: I think that there are so many things that make the test invalid, as a judge

as to whehe.:you are accepted or not. In Miami, they give this award the

Silver Knight. It is given to the student who is tops in a certain area.

Like science and math they are the best ones, he made it and he came here

and he could not make it. I do not think that he was not qualified. A lot

of black students have this thing like I was brought up in a black race and

no matter how qualified or how adept you are as a bl&ck student or anything

like that you are engraved with this feeling that you really can not succeed

in a white man's world. Eventually whatever you acquire the black man does

not have the ability or the power to take it from you.

F: What about more bjzbk professors? Do you think that is important?

V: Yes, second to b ck students.

F: How do you get them?

V: I think that we should have somebody in the administration to identify with

besides Roy Mitchell. I can say that in my own words my own feelings why some










of the black kids act the way that they do out of etreme frustration and a

feeling of being lost. Like when you walk on campus there was a time when you

would not see a single black student all day. Like right now there are 157

and you can look and see one or two passing you by. You look to your pro-

fessors and you just expect to see a black guy standing up at the desk and

you would be in shock because you would not know what was going on. In the

administration you know that, you can go there because Roy Mitchell is in his

office and talk to him.

F: Do you think that it is important to have more black administrators?



L: Yes, because there would somebody to go to if you had a problem.

F: How do you think it would help to have blacks in the classroom, black professors?

V: I think that it would best serve students first and blacks second, I think

that white students would get more out of having more black students on campus

then the black students would.

F: Why?

V: There is this thing about prejudice. No what a so-called liberal white student

might say as far as his being non-prejudice. I might have believed it once

but I can not believe it now. Because how could he not be ]prejudice because

he has always associated with prejudice in the home and in the schools and with

other students. Like the white students that I know and that I can generally

call friends, I tell them something contrary to what they believe and they

that they did not know that. It is not this thing that I can not accept that

because I have always been taught differently. They have been taught one thing

and they do not know the other side and you tell them that and they say well

I did not know that. 157 black students can not associate with 20,000 white

students and say that they have ceased prejudice or changed attitudes or some-

thing like that. The only way that I feel that whites will get any type of









geniune change in their prejudice feelings is to associate with more blacks.

No matter how much you read in papers like the Alligator or books or any-

thing like that, it is not the same as the actual experience.

F: Do you agreee with that, James?

L: Yes




End of tape.




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