Title: Carl Smart
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Title: Carl Smart
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Interview with Carl Smart

F: Where are you from, Carl? /7I / T7

C: Quincey

F: You are a Freshman?

C: Right

F: What kind of high school did you go to?

C: It was predominately black but half equipped facilities and stuff like that.

F: It was predominately black but was there any white students there?

C: It is totally blAcl ut there are two white students going there for the first time

this year.

F: Is it by choice?

C: Yes, I guess so.

E: So, they still have a black and a white school in Quincey?

C: Yes

F: Where else had you thought of going when you decided to go to college?

C: Well, Florida State, West Point, the University of Miami, FLorida A. and M, and

Tuskegee Institute mainly were my choices.

F: I see. HOw did you decide to come here?

C: I do not know. I was determined nn West Point but I decided to come here at the

last moment because for one reason they have got the best engineering department

in the state. I decided that I wanted to be in the state and that also I wanted

to be an engineer so I narrowed the chbices down to Florida and Miami. Florida

was closer-then Miami. The University of FLorida had a racist reputation but I

still wanted to come.

F: WHat things M d you heard about the University of FLorida?

C: I heard that it was hard for black students to get into here. THe first black stuqgct

was turned down several times and that he had to go through courtasystem, had to

go through the Circuit Court to even get here. I heard that the President of the

University, President O'Connell was the most racist of any contemporary president.

C: I heard that the Engineering Department was particularly conservative.

F: All of this you heard before you even came here?

C: Before I even came here. I knew that the football team was all white and the basket-

ball team was all white and the baseball team and all major sports all athletics

was all white. To me this was telling you that you were going to a racist school

and that you probably will not be able to participate in much. THis was really all

that I had heard about Florida besides I knew that it was a good school. I had

read about it/ver since junior high school and I had heard people talk about it.

You seldom see a black person from Florida that is a member of Florida alumni

and that person will tell you how great the school is academically but not socially

for a black student. This is all that I had heard about the school.

F: What kind of people did you hear this from?

C: I heard a lot through the medium. My main source of information was a teacher

that had graduated from Florida in Mathmatics, I mean.

F: Blact teacher?

C: Right, she went to FLorida A&M and got her Master's here in Mathmatics and she told

me a lot about this school. She was not a member of our generation or the proceeding

generation she was about in her late fifties. She was one of those priviliged

people. SHe told her whole class about the school and I just got interested and I

started reading the catalogues and the papers. Every major Florida paper has a lot

about Florida in it if you look in the state section you will see a lot about it.

Whenever I read about the sports or watched them on television you would never hear

anything about a black student and they were so scarce here on campus' I came by

a couple of times but I did not stJ6 long because I did not know anyone here.

F: You visited here while you were still in high school?

C: I did not really visit I just came by when I was coming through Gainesville and

would stop by the campus. All that I saw was white students and foreign students

but no black students. If you get in it going to be more then just an academic

challenge, it is going to be a psychological challenge.


F: Why did you come if you had so-many apprehensions about coming?

C: I do not know. I get the feeling that I made it through junior and senior high

school and the last year of high school. I said to myself all right you have made

it this far you want to finish the last year and go on to college you are great.

The more that I thought about it I could see that I was not so great because I

had not done anything in that town Quincey, I had not done anything for my

people and the people that stayed there and if I go through college without doing

anything I still would not be anything myself. I still would not have that feeling

of identity because through high school if I thought even in a black high school

I was trying to assimilate myself into a white bougeois society and go to school

dressed up every day and you know that you come from a home or neighborhood that is

in a poverty area or something like this. You sort of eliminate a predominately

black college because you have been going to a predominately black educational

institution all of your life. I thought that maybe a change would bring me back to

reality and show me some things that I could do for my people.

F: By going to a white school?

C: By going to a white school.

F: How do you figure that?

C: I see it because if you go to a all white school, predominatley white school, you

are in a minority and you can see the oppression you can se+it. I mean by the

maintenance or janitorial staff here you can see the oppression and it is no big

deal. If you see it and analyze it in a white institution you might be able to

figure out something that you can do. At a white institution there is always some

thing to do like helping to bring in more black students to that school and to

bring in more black faculty addiadministration. You can always do that and that

would be something positive something that needs to be done and something that you

want to see done and you can be a part of it. THe way that I see itff the best

black students go to predominately black colleges and you get them there in one


institution and you do do have them where you might need them because Florida

A & M does not have as much pull in the Florida Senate or Legislature as the

University of Florida. Now a lot of things get pulled right over the heads of

Florida A & M and they have hardly anything to do with it. A person at FLorida could

see it happening, he could see it going on although he may not be a member of

Florida A & M he would still be able to voice his opinion. At Florida A & M

I could walk up on that campus and tell the administration what I feel mainly

because I am black and they respect the opinions of a black student where here.

I would have to go through a lot of channels. Another reason I think for a

predominately black college is that a lot of people go there to take the easy

way out and they go there where they will not have any other challenges besides

academic challenges and they do not have that many. Even if they graduate the

chances of them getting a job are becoming much better. My coming here just to

get a better job was not that at~ll becausejhere is sort of a need for black

students and they are picking them. THey have got to have them in order to improve

their racial image. So, a predominately black college would be taking the easy

way out a lot of the times.

F: Have you visited any of them? How do you see that campus different from this one?

C: I see it different as a black student. Well, what type of difference do you mean?

F: People have told me that the A & M campus is actually a lot more restictive as far

as the freedoms that the students have. DO you find that to be true?

C: Yes, I mean, this is a pretty liberal campus as far as student rights go. As for

student rights it is a lot more lenient.

F: In what way?

C: THe way that I see it is like the dormitory restrictions, like open house the

curfew and all of that is much more enforced in a black school then it is here.

Academically, I think that it is a lot more strict in that there are only three e

fraternities and not many people belong to fraternities. The fraternity systemhas

a lot of pull I found this out this quarter. THe students that are members of the

fraternity system he is probably going to make it because the officers of the

fraternity are seniors. THey can get into a certain position that they can help

him or pledgees or their younger brothers. THey get into a position where they

cna help them.

F: What kind of things?

C: Would you believe academically? They can help them like if a student has got a

test that he is going to fail and knows that he is going to fail and he knows

that if he fails that he is out the fraternity system could help to keep him in.

If he is a brother in good standing of if he is a pledgee in real good standing

they will get him back.

F: How do they do that?

C: Well, I do not know exactly. ONe way to do it is by if you have a brother who is

a graduate or a person who checks papers who checks the test papers for the

instructor or a brother who is an instructor's best friend you see it every day

because a brother is liable to his position so that he can help his 'fraternity in

some way. It will improve his image and improve the fraternity's image. If he

can get into a good administration position, it could be checking papers or any-

thing they will help them out. The fraternity system means a lot here.

F: Why do you think:that Florida A & M is stricter on those kind of things then they

are here?

C: I do not know.

F: You think that it is obvious that it is?

C: It is obvious.

F: People have told me that dress restrictions are much enforced. People hanging

around campus that they get a lot of heat from the administration that they can

not hang around campus like at the plaza or something. You have never thought

about why that might be?

C: No. I do not know. In high school, I know, the restrictions were like that and

I saw the whole school trying to assimilate itself into the white bourgeois

society. THey were real strict on the dress code and what you say and how you

talk back to the instructors and certain things that you could say and things

that you could not say and you had to take it. It was a lot stricter where you

could not speak back to the administration.

F: At A & M?

C: I was talking about my high school. It would be about the same mainly because it

was predominately black. It is changing though. I would give it four or five more

years to make the complete change if they are doing that. It will take it a little

while to change.

F: You always had apprehensions before you came. How has it been since you came here?

C: All of them have been intensified somewhat because I see the situation worse

then it was when I was in high school.

F: How?

C: I do not know. Maybe just because I am part of the student body now and I look at

the rights that a white student has and the rights that I have.

F: Do you say that they areiifferent'the rights of a white student and the rights of

black student?

C: The rights of the whites are carried out more it seems like. If I have a right,

then it is probably not going to be enforced. It will probably be looked over.

I only have 5/10 of a per cent of the student body backing me. If a white student

comes out with his rights like a striker if a person comes out and he wants free

meals or something like that just by being a white student he is going to get it.

If I can get a portion of a 170 people, how can I expect my right-s to be supported?

F: Can you think of any specific examples?

C: Yes, I guess I could. Well, take for instance, the situation last week when they

talked to O'Connell about the KA's plantation day. As my right as a student, I

think that I have a right not to be publicly intimidated and insulted by white


students dressing up in COnfederate uniforms, riding around on horses with guns

and Confederate flags assimilating the days of slavery. THat is what it means to

me. I think that I have a right as a part of the student body not to be insulted

like this. So, I would like to voice my right and I talk to the black students.

I am only going to get a percentage, I do not know how many, of the black students

that really will publicly support me. All of them will probably support me

morally or spiritually or whatever, they wil ot come out in public and do it

mainly because they have certain interests that they would like to protect. So,

only a certain number of students would take the courage or whatever it takes to

dare the administration to stop it or else. My rights are less likely to be

enforced unless I take some type of action.

F: What did O'Connell say?

C: Unless they break the law that there is nothing that he can do about it.

F: What do you think about his answer?

C: I think that he is bull-shitting. BEcause a country ran strictly by the law

will turn into one heck of a country. It will either turn into a communist

state or it will turn into a nation that is falling apart the way that I see it.

If everyone was to go strictly by the Constitution, you realize what kind of a

country that we would have. It has been changing all of the time and if you can

not change with it change the laws with the people you should abolish that law and

form another one. That is the way that I see it. When he is overlooking my rights-

F: What rights of yours are being infringed upon?

C: My right as a student. I think that every student has a right not to have his race

besides himself if I overlook myself not to have my race publicly intimidated. How

would you like it if we were to go around dressed up as part of the Nat Turner Raid

or something or if the Germans were to put on a show for the Jews. If the Jews were

to get together and protest to the administration they would stop it.

F: What about are there things printed inthe M-16 that arebot acceptable to a lot of

white students?

C: That is not too debatable.

F: You know that is true.

C: Right

F: There are a lot of things in there that are pretty strong. Whether they are or not

people feel that they are and that is the important thing. NOw if a large number

of white students went to O'Connell and said that we do not like that newspaper

that it insults whites so stop the newspaper. Do you think that would be right?

C: Well, right or not the newspaper would be stopped the next day. It dild be stopped

I do believe that it would and we would probably have to take it off campus.

F: But you know that there are a lot of white students that feel that way?

C: Yes

F: Especially about the M-16. DO you think that ought to be printed?

C: Do I think if that ought to be printed?

F: Yes

C: Yes, I do.

F: Even if it insults the students.

C: Even if it insults students, I do not know. They would have to voice their opinion

to me.

F: Obviously, you are a bright guy and you know that it does.

C: I know that it bothers some people. I do not know what percentage of the student

body this involves. I do not know. The way that I see it it would be hard for me

to intimidate the white race. Maybe they see it the same way that I see it but

I have never taken them through years of slavery or years of racism. I do not

believe in black racism. I think that it is a figment on the white imagination.

F: You do not think that it exists at all?

C: No, I think that it is just a form of rebelling the white society and everything

that is done to the blacks.

F: You say that it is a reaction to that?


C: Yes, it is a reaction because the black race has not put the whites through a

whole lot of civil rights and all of that. We are the oppressed people. It is

hard to say that. It is hard to suppress it because you know that you can stop

it if you want to. If this minority group is oppressing you then you can rise up

and stop it right then if you wanted to. Like we are the oppressed people and

nothing you have done has changed it so far and it is still up to the white

society to change that. As long as we are oppressed, I do not think that we

will be racist mainly because we do not control anything powerful. We do not

control the government.

F: I think that there is a difference in being able to and wanting to be able to.

ANy individual can be a racist but he by himself can not do anything. Using that

example again the M-16, why is it allowed to exist?

C: The M-16?

F: Yes, because obviously it bothers people.

C: I do not see it as a racist paper. I guess it is though. The M-16 was meant to

circulate among the black portion of the student body and go to whites that are

interested in it. Everything that we do though is watched and if they want to

stop it they can do it. It was really meant to just be for the black students.

It is a paper from the Black Student Union meant for the Black Student Union.

That was the purpose of our creating the M-16. We had a small committee meeting

the information cadre we had this meeting and we decided that the communication

of black students in all of these different departmentsfas not good at all. So,we

wanted to figure out some sort of media that would bring them together and let them

know when they are meeting, when a certain department is doing something that type

of thing.

F: How often was that supposed to come out?

C: I think every two weeks.

F: Has it been coming out every two weeks?

C: No, it is behind schedule all ready.

F: How many issues have been printed?

C: One

F: Just that one?

C: The second issue is coming out next week.

F: It has been about five weeks?

C: I do not know. I am on the committee but I am not the chairman or the assistant

manager either one.

F: Who is the editor of that?

C: James Teate who is a student in Medical Technology. He has been doing some and we

are going to get together one last issue and this is mainly for the incoming

black students, the incoming freshman this summer. Really when we first talked

about it I did not want it even to circulate throughout the whole student body

and that is why we did'not make that many copies. We did not even want it to

circulate that far. If it was particular insulting, I think that it is the

obligation of the white student to come tothe BSU or either come to a member of

the committee and tell them what bothers them and we will consider it in putting

out our next paper. We will put out the = ut we will consider their feelings.

F: Do you think that if someone said that is a racist article. Do you think that they

would say well we do not want to insult anyone like that and would withdraw all

of those kinds of articles?

C: We would consider it. I did not say that we would take any kind of action. If

you say that out article is racist and I do not like it and that it is publicly

intimidating and insulting me we would say all right sit down and we will read the

article and then find out what part of this article is particularly insulting you.

If I see that he is sincere about the thing he has got to be really sincere for

us to decide that we will not print these type of articles any more.

F: Let me ask you something. I would be willing to bet that President O'Connell

will say well he talked to them and he would of liked to have done something and

he considered it but he could not and the only way that you would believe him is

if he stopped it rather then him considering it. I think that there is a parallel

between those two. Let us look at something specific. We talked about your

apprehensions and you said that things up here had been worse then actually you

thought that they might be. What about your relationship with students here how

has that been?

C: I do not know. THose that I have gotten to know are mostly fairly okay but when

I first came here I was like lost. I walked into my area office= aid there was

nothing but white students and white parents. I was still feeling good and no one

was going to take that away. I got on my floor and I found out immediately that

I was the only black student on my floor.

F: Where do you live?

C: Southhall second floor. THey say that students are picked at random for the

floors but it is just coincidence that you have one black student on the ground,

first, second, and third floor. It is just coincidence that is all and they have

us in the middle of the floor. My roommate before he came the rest of the day he

was not there and I walked around glad to be there after my parents left. All

right here I come walking down the sidewalk and here is a white student coming

facing me and he is smiling and he seems to

I will speak and then he suddenly holds his

I looked back to see what I had done and it

I do not know maybe a lot of Wthe students

they first get here. After this happened a

to white students.

F: People that you did not know but met on the

talk back?

C: Right. I was happy to be at this place but

be looking at me and as we get closer

head down. THat kind of hit me and

happened about two or three times.

act this way toward black students when

few times, I would just quit speaking

walk and said hello to and they do not

it just did not turn out that way.

My roommate here I am sitting in the room and he comes in and looks and says

you live here just like that he was so startled and I do not even know what to

say. I looked at the man and I started to tell him no this is your cousin or

something like that to make him think but he slammed the door and left just like

that. I said okay because I had been getting myself ready for this shock and so

he went back downstairs and in about 15 minutes his mother came back up and I

guess that she did not believe him. He told her there was a nigger up in the

room and she probably did not believe him and she came into the room and she

looked around and she spoke.

F: What did she say?

C: She spoke casually said)i how do you do, and said"are you Craig's roommate. I

said Yes mam and she left. In about thirty minutes they came back and everybody

was so friendly and all and putting up the stuff and he was moving into the room.

I did not find out until the next day that in those thirty minutes that they were

trying like hell to get him out of that room and get him into another room.

F: How did you find that out?

C: Through, bhe RA. The only reason that they put him in is that they found out

that he had to stay there a week before he could be moved at all. At the end of

the week, he did not want to leave and I did not care whether he left or not but

really hh did not want to leave and he did not want to stay with anyone else on

the floor and he did not know where to go.

F: Why did he leave if he did not want to leave? Why was that still an option? If

he did not want to leave then why was he still considering it?

C: Why was he considering leaving? I do not know? We found that we got along okay.

F: Did he continue to be your roommate?

C: He is my roommate now.

F: He is still your roommate?

C: Yes, he dicvot want to leave. That brought me to an understanding that a lot of

things are new during this period and there are a lot of things to analysing white

students and their feelings about black students. I feel that they come from a


or generation or whatever people that are use to living in a society in which

they are superior and the blacks are known for their inferiority and they are just

particularly ignorant and that everythingabout the black is inferior. THe hair

is inferior and the shape of the nose and the mouth and everything is inferior

to the whites. WHite students have been taught this all of their life and it

takes a heck of a lot for them to change. I feel sorry for them because it takes

so long for them to change. A black student he gets sort of the same treatment

he gets that inferiority all through his life and we are changing at a much more

rapid pace then the white students. I just feel sorry for them. I do not see it

as their fault. THe only thing that I see as their fault is the inability to

change and get with it because contmeporary society has no place for inferior

races none at all. It is past time for them tk{ealize that we as a particular race

are just as equal on equal terms as they are. Anytime that we see a racist practise

we do our best to abolish it.

F: Both ways?

C: Both ways, I do not know :Can you think of any other incidents with students

general relationships?

C: Yes, I got caught up in a fraternity nce.

F: What happened with that?

C: Well, Kappa Sigma is now on suspension and they will probably lose their charter.

I was one of two black students that tried to pledge.

F: What happened in that incident as you see it?

C: I went over there out of curiosity.

F: Why did you pick Kappa SIgma?

C: It really did not make that much of a difference because I wanted to see when the

fraternity gets together what they would be doing out of curiosity. I might

be able to relate it to the feelings of a white student. I went over with my

roommate and some guys down the hall came also right after rush and I was only

pledging there at that time. THis other black student came at a different time


really we did not ever meet. I do not know why maybe he got invited at different

times. THe brothers seemed willing the majority there was about five dissenters

the rest of them seemed willing to take in a black student as a pledgee not as a

brother take him in as a pledgee whether he would get to be a brother or not just

to show that they are changing from that racist attitude and that is the way that

I saw it. They kept asking me to come back after I had found out what I wanted

to find out they kept asking me to come back. So, I kept going back every now

and the4nd I found out that they were going through quite a hassle in order to

get me a bid. I said that it was not worth it and let me move out of the picture

right now because I feel that any time that you go through something like this

then you are still going through that inferiority bit. You are one black student

and we have got to go through this trouble to get you in here. So, I left and

I told the guys coming back that obviously the alumni did not leave it at that.

They tried to change I will give them credit for that. Like I said, just like

a lot of students come from a type of racist families there are prejudiced or

racist alumni and the alumni is not going to allow a change easily so whites

fall right back in the bag. THey are going to fall right back in the bag of just

whites and they probably will not attempt to get a black student for some time

now until the alumni ease off. That is the way that you do it. I do not know

a lot of these students have got these materialistic values and they say if we

do not stop trying to pledge this black person then we are going to lose our

house. That is a material thing. IF they have really got that feeling of

brotherhood then they will forget about the house but that is the thing that they

are hung up on material values. That is what a predominately black college is

hung up on is material values and anytime that you are in a minority you are

probably thinking more about your race. If you are not then you are in bad shape

because you should be and that is why I am not here particularly for a degree

and not just for the opportunity of getting a job. I am here to try to do some-

thing to help my race like helping to get more black students here.

F: How have our classes been?

C: I had chemistry the first quarter and I was the only black student there out of

300 students. It makes you think what is wrong with us people out of 300 I am

the nnly black student here and 30% of the state's population is black.

F: 30%?

C: Right

F: Where did you hear that?

C: It is in the statistics somewhere.

F: I think that you have go the wrong statistics it is more like 20%. I see your


C: I have read 30% in about four or five different places and that is the one that

I will settle on intil I find different. 30% of the state's population is

black and 30% of the people pay taxes and 30% are black and 30% pay taxes then

30% of the black population is paying for this school and paying the way for

students to go here why is only 5/10 of 1% go here and you makes you think that

something is wrong. Your people are getting held back somewhere and it has got

to be somewhere in this bureaucracy and it is taking effect more here then in

other places. One place is right here in Florida because the Board of Regents

listen to FLorida. THe Board of Regents usually come from Florida and I think

that we are getting exploited as a people.

F: Why do not more black students come here now?

C: There is still that admissions requirement and that is going to hold black students

back until this is removed. To get 300 on the Florida Placement is a bitch for

a black student; who had gone to a black high school and who had not had the chance

to have the same facilities as at another. For instance, take my high school there

were 223 black students who graduated and ten black students made over 300 and

1 made over 400.

F: What did you make?

C: It was over 400.

F: What did you make do you remember?

C: It was over 400. Only eight people can make between 300 and 400 out of a class

of 226. I know that a lot of these students are capable of making it here.

They study to their best ability and they do everything they can to their best

ability but they do not have everything that a white student-has. A lot of white

high school and I have learned this since I got here they are prepared for the

tests and some of them take it more then onee just to get the three hundred mark

which the black student can not do.

F: You have heard that students have taken the test more then onee?

C: One that did it he took it more then once.

F: How did he manage to do that?

C: He came here and took it. A lot of students come right here and take it.

F: What did he make?

C: He made 265 or something like that.

F: The first time?

C: Yes

F: What were his grades in high school?

C: He had a B average and he came here and he got the 300 mark. I think that a lot

of black students could make it here if that admission requirement of 300 was

not there.

E: Do you think that they ought to have any admission requirement?

C: I think that it oughtto be a progressive thing.

F: Keep lowering it?

C: Yes until they just abolish that requirement or wither figure out on little tests

that are made up down here. THis one is made up in the New England states in a

bourgeois society and if you do not want blacks to fail it then you are out of

your mind.

F: How did you do so well?

C: I do not know it was luck.

F: You do not believe that do you really think that it was luck?

C: Yes, I did a lot of reading and I went to a summer reading course and for six

weeks at least I read and read up to a college level as much as I could and I

stayed in the library a lot. We have one public library in the city and in this

one you can not check out books unless you have a membership card and you get a

membership card through the Women's Club which is all white. THe only way that

a black person can come in is through the back door.

F: You can not walk in the public library of Quincey?

C: If you have got the card, you can not use the books in the facility

F: Without the card.

C: Without the card.

F: This is the same with whites also?

C: What do you mean with whites?

F: Do not the whites have to have a card also?

C: Yes, but it is easier to get.

F: Do you have a card.

C: No

F: Why not?

C: My mother could not ge ne. She couldnot get one.

F: Did she try?

C: I did not want to pay the fee?

F: How much was it?

C: About five dollars.

F: For how long?

C: Probably for a lifetime but I did not want to pay the fee. I did not think that

I should have to pay the fee.

F: Why not?

C: Because this is a public library.

F: It is not funded by public funds so all people who are members have to pay.


C: Yes, I guess so but you know five dollars to them means nothing. I would not do


F: If they lowered that requirement, even taking your figure of thirty per cent that

would still make seventy per cent of the population white so would there not be

that many more white students coming?

C: Probably so.

F: There are only a limited number of slots for Freshmen.

C: I was thinking particularly about black students. I think that they should

discriminate for the black race to get more black students here. THey should bring

the percentage up at least to 20% of the university's population should be

black. That is something that the University should go all out of its way to

do even if they get criticism from the white society they should do it. THey

owe the black students that much and they owe them much more then that but we

would settle for 20% df the student population.

F: Why do you think that the students that do not make 300 would do well here?

C: Because they have the ability to study and most of them have this will to make

it because they are black. They have been in this inferior complex all of their

life and most of them have got this will to come out and do something for their

people and get an education. THey should do that. They should just lower the

admission requirement plus give them financial-aid.

F: Are you on financial aid?

C: Yes

F: An academic scholarship?

C: Yes

F: From whom

C: General MOtors.

F: Really, for engineering?

C: Right.

F: Do you have any other aid besides that? How much it that?


C: $1700 a year for five years.

F: What about how are most black students doing here? I realize that this is perception

and you do not really know. DO you have a feeling about that?

C: How

F: Academically.

C: Academically they are getting by. I would say that about 30% aee A-B students

and the rest of us are C students.

F: Right now the University does not have different policy so for the most part the

average black student has the same load that the average white students has.

Do you think that the average black student is doing as well as the average white

or a little better or a little worse or what do you think?

C: It could be either way according to the individual student. In general the black

student is behind no matter what his score is. He is still behind mainly because

F: So, he is not doing as well as the average white student even though he has

scores about the same.

C: I am not saying that. I am saying that it might be but whether it is oo not

he came here behind. Once he got in here he might do as well or better according

to the time that he put into his academic studies.

F: Do most people put in a lot of time and are doing well?

C: I would dare to say so. I think that they have to put in more time then the

white student especially the first year because they have not been exposed

to things that the white student has.

F: I understd that and I understand it very well but getting back to a point that

you made a few minutes ago. If I were to say that the average black student is

not doing as well as the average white student even though they have the same

scores and before you said that you thought that the people wit/even lower scores

would be able to do well because they wanted to succeed now that seems to be a

contradiction does it not? Even the outst4ing black students are not doing


particularly well then why would the people with the 175.

C: I said that they could and they could.

F: I think that they could too. I think that a lot of students could do better

then they do but they do not.

C: I think this calls for the need of a tutorial service in order to bring them up.

F: Yes, I think so too. What do you think ought to exist here to help the situation?

C: To help the black students situation?

F: Yes.

C: A tutorial service in every department.

F: Available to white students also?

C: Yes, I am not discriminating on that basis. I think that they should be especially

equipped for disadvantage students and almost limited to disadvantage students.

This is the purpose of it to bring them up from their disadvantage level.

Counseling like black students should have efficient counseling and they should

have several black counselors that they would be able to counsel black students

without being over-crowded.

F: Do you think that they should have a black counselor for the black students?

C: I think that they should have more then one.

F: I did not mean only one but that each black student should have a black counselor.

C: Yes

F: Why do you think that?

C: Because a black counselor when you first go in you would not have to tell the man

your needs. He knows what you have been through and he knows your needs and if

you have go/one particular thing that you want to talk about then he will be more

able to come down to your level and understand what you are saying. A white

counselor would have to go through lot of changes. FIrst, he would have to read

up on minority affairs and read up in some book on black students or something

like this. A black counselor has all ready been through it add he would not have

to go through any more changes. He would not have to put on a hypocritical


attitude to talk to you and stuff like that.

F: That makes sense. What about professors do you have a point to make about

professors too?

C: I say that we ought to have some black professors and black administrators

with some type of authority. I mean Roy Mitchell does not have that much authority.

I know because I go to his office a lot. He does not have that much authority.

IF a black student comes in with a complaint, he has to first go to Hennessey and

then to Hale and Hale will take it from there add send it right up throughthe

bureaucratic system to O'Connell. His bureaucratic system will then send it to

different committees so a black student has to go through a lot.

F: What kind of things are you talking about that would go through that kind of a


C: We had this black English class and a black student may come to him and say

we have two white instructors and the white instructor told us that we people

should not have come here.

F: Why?

C: Why did he say that?

F: Yes

C: Why would he say it?

F: What was the context that he said than?

C: He did not say it she said it. She asked why did you people come here or something

like that why did you people come here in the first place. It was the tone of the


F: What was the context that she said it in. It must have been involved in something.

C: Yes, it was sort of an argument over the relevance of the class mainly because she

kept avoiding the real issuesLhat black students would like to discuss about their

own race. We all questioned her ability to even assimilate to take black literature

and explain it to black students. THere were black students in there -that were

really teaching the class and telling what this literatuEe meant. We can not see


it on the white level and that is how she wanted us to see it. She wanted to see

it from a white point of view and we did not think that was relevant at the time.

F: What was the context that she made that remark in?

C: I do not remember. I do not know what was said before. A girl said that we are

tired about learning about the white people we have been taught about white people

all of out lives and we want to learn about black people some times. She said then

why did you people come here in the first place come to this white university.

That is bull man.

F: Learn about e people or learn about the white way of doing things?

C: Both

F: She meant both. So, people went to Roy Mitchell about that?

C: Yes, they went to him and it took a round about way of getting to him. Really

nothing has been done about it.

F: Are you in that class?

E';: Yes, we took it on our own to start another debate and then to boycott the class.

We walked out and then we set up a meeting with the chairman of the English

department Dr. Hodges. SOmething came out of that because right away he went to

Roy Mitchell himself and then he ran over to DEan office right after the

meeting to see what he could do about getting a black professor in there.

F: Have they gotten one?

C: They got one but she turned down the job so they are trying to get another one.

She turned it down because she stays in Ocala and they only offered her a couple

of hundred dollarsmore then she is getting in Ocala and it would be too much

commuting for her. That was about the only way that we got anything positive

done. We almost restructered the class where it would be more relevant to black

people where we could talk about the black race in a lenient sort of way.

She was trying to say that it was the same as any other English class which is

impossible. I mean that a whole class 6g black students could not be the same

End of tape

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