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Interview with Winfred Dearing who is a Freshman

F: Where are you from?

W: I am from Tampa.

F: Where did you go to school?

W: I went to high-school for two years at Hillsborough.

F: That s'~lk white school. Where did you go before that?

W: I went to a school in Alabama and Mississippi.

F: I see. As soon as you moved to Tampa you went to Hillsborough. Did you have a

choice to go anywhere else?

W: Yes, there was a black school close by.

F: Which one was that?

W: IT was Blake high-school.

F: Why did you choose to go to Hillsbourough?

W: I figured that I might learn more.

F: What kinds of schools did you go to in Alabama and Mississippi?

W: I went to black schools.

F: How far did you have to go to go to Hillsbourough?

W: It was about a mile from home.

F: How close was the black school?

W: About am-q 944z- mile

F: You were actually centrally located where it was n6t that hard to get to either

one?

W: Yes

F: What did you think when you got the questionnaire?

W: I thought that you took a random sample and choose my name.

F: Have you gotten any before?

W: No, I have not. It was sort of a different kind of questionnaire.

F: Like what?

W: Like a guy was doing a project for a certain class and wanted to know what kind









of a car A I liked.

F: Are you a Freshman?

W: __T /l/, -^ a
F: Where else did you think of going before you came to the University of Florida?

W: Florida State.

F: Is this your second year here?

W: This is my second year here r4^5

F: You were interested in Florida State, here and whereflse?

W: Tusk ehee and that is about all.

F: Why did you decide to come here?

W: I figured that I might have to study more here and learn here. If I went to FLorida

A & M then I could take it easy I would not learn as much.

F: What made you thing that?
6.-
W: Well, it is probably the sterotype of all white schools like when I went to black

schools I was in the top of my class but when I took the national examinations

I was just about averageA SO, I thought about what was wrong so I guess that I
A A

just naturally blamed it on tb schools.

F: How have you been doing since you have been here?

W: Well, I have a 3.2 so I guess that I am doing all right.

F: That is being very modest. When you considered between here and Florida State

how did youhhoose Florida?

W: Well, I Was thinking about pre-vet and my guidance counselor at Hillsbourough

told me that the place for me to go would be the University of Florida and then

to go to Auburn.

F: That seems to be a pretty common pattern of pre-vets going to-Flo44a and then

going to Auburn. You had two years experience at a predominately white school.

Did you we any trouble adjusting at Hillsbourough?

W: What kind of trouble are you talking about?

,~~. Did you find any differences?









W: I found that I had to study more and I found also that when I studied more that

I made better grades. Also, when I went to Hillsbourough there was a big change

like at the black schools I was sort of top of the class while at Hillsbourough

I was sort of just an average student.

F: Were you also an average student-as far as grades in addition to the national

examination?

W: No, I made better grades at Hisbourough thqn I did at the black school, hen

I took the national examinations there was not much difference because it was

sort of based on background and the two years at Hillsbourough did not make that

much difference.

F: What kind of an average did you have at Hillsbourough?

W: About a 3.8.

F: That is great. Before you came did you have any apprehensions about coming here?

W: ""t.-Noj-^.

F: You had not heard anything except that it was the best pre-vet program arond?

W: Sort of

F: What about since you have been here?

W: Like what?

F: Most of my questions are going to beopen-ended and not specific as possible

because I want to hear what you have to say rather then do you see what I am

saying because in some kind of interviews they can get the kind-of answer 4Lt

they want by asking certain questions. I want to hear what you want to say more

thqn what I want you to say. How has it been since you have been here? Have you

been pretty satisfied?

W: Well, the dormitories were kind of usual you know couple of guys said hello. The

thing that I noticed is that whites when you pass one another they kind of look

down and they do not speak and do not speak to one another. Most of us black

students just like if I see an African student I say hello and he says hello too

although that is my first time at seeing him. I noticed that the whites were


I


III








kind of cold or restricted.

F: That is whites to whites and blacks to blacks but what about whites to blacks?

W: Well, I guess it is if a white notices you sometimes he speaks and sometimes he

does-.not. Sometimes I can know a guy)and he will turn his head and look the other

way. I guess that it is just the way that they act I do not know.

F: You say that they do that pretty much to each other.

W: Right

F: It may not be the racial variable but just the way that people react. Do you have

a roommate in the dorm?

W: No, I do not have a roommate. I had a roommate last year. He was sort of he

was from Fort Pierce and he was sort of prejudice. He met one good black and he

sortiof changed 1 st ereotype e f lM t

) te W I y 5e and his parents were sort of wondering about him staying with a

black student. HIs parents would ask him silly questions like how I was treating

him or if I was stealing his stuff from him. I was supposed to get a room with

him this year but he played his radio when I studied and I did not like that so

I decided to get a room by myself.

F: There are singles I did not know that. Where do you live.

W: The Murphee area.

F: T .hey have singles there?

W: That is right. 0 /

F: He was your roommate all of last year? You did not know him before you got there.

How do you get along with the rest of the people in your dorm?

W: It is just like a dormitory like some people you speak to and some people that

you do not. THat is sort of bad I guess like I am use to speaking to people when

I see them ~Dit makes me feel alienated and that is why I guess that I go to the
LC
Student Union. e Black Student Union where the black students get together

a sort of social, political organization and it sort of makes up for all of that

cold attitude in the dormitory.









F: What about social life on campus? g a//

W: Well, we have parties mostly black people fti there and sometimes I go to the Village

Gate and movies and stuff like that.

F: What about dating?

W: It is all right. I date black girls because I find it hard to get serious with

the white girls. It is like white girls do not even count. It is just like

living somewhere all of your life and then being put in ea situation. It is just

like you see white people on television but it is hard to identify with white

people because you live with black people all of your lives and when you suddenly

get put into this white society it is just like a new toy. It is just something

that you just do not care about so that is how I feel basically about white girls.

They are just there and I am here and so what.

F: What do you mean that it is hard to get serious with white girls.

W: You know just like I talk to white girls but I dnot take them into consideration

when I start looking for a girl to date. It is just that way.

F: Do you date mainly black girls on campus?

W: Right, campus, off-campus.

F: Which ones do you date more?

W: 0n- campus

F: It seems like a lot of people have taken to dating people off-campus. Have you

noticed that?

W: Right because sometimes the black girls think that just because they are going to

the University of Florida that they are sdbig and it goes to their

heads sometimes.

F: How do they act?

W: We p~ve a word for it but it is kind of --just sort of special

F: What is the word?,

W: We call it highcidity.

F: Is that a made-up word?


I









W: Yes a sort of a black word. They act like they are on the top. It is just like
ifbodq 7 SOr-- v,^
being in the upper class and someae else is in a lower class. we

et^e ele sey isY in a wce

F: The black girls on campus.

W: Right some girls are all right.

F: Can you spell that. Some words are just strictly oral language and not written.

W: I guess that you could spell it h-i-g-h- for the high and put a(-)in and s-i-d-t

something I do not knew.

F: Is that a pretty ac word do most people know.

W: Blacks do.

F: I mean blacks. You do not have any idea of the origin? That is the first time

that I have heard that. I have heard just about everything once but that is a new

one on me. What is interesting is to hear the same phenomenon of dating as

described by black girls and lack guys. Well, black girls say that they would

really like to go out with the black guys on this campus and the black guys
EVt have anything to do with them and the black guys talk about the girls that

they are snobs and they are that way because they are at the University of

Florida. They still talk about the same thing but they completely twist it

around.

V: The black girls seem to have the same attitude that I have.

F: Yes, but they seem to think that it is the boys fault.

W: Well, it could be. How many blAck AwA& do we have here.

F: Counting graduate students about ninety to sixty ei-.

W: Well, I guess that we have a communication block just like some girls like I take

them out and they are all right but you would not consider dating them for a long

time. It is just their personality and the way that they act they are just dis-

agreeable.

F: Can you be more specific?

W: Well, most of the girls on the campus are sort of one night affairs you am take

5










them out and find out everything that you want to know in one night. You do not

take the girls into consideration too-much they are just there.

F; What kind of girls do you prefer?

W: I do not know girls that are it is sort of hard to put into words.

F: You probably can and pbably have but you will not tell them to me. I am sure

that you have talked about these things.
A
W: Yes, I probably have.

F: Girls off campus are different though?

W: Well, like girls off campus most of the time they are high school girls that probably

admire us more thqn the/irls on campus and that sort of does something for ou ego.

So that is probably the reason.

F: I see. Also, getting to more specifics, possibly one of the s for resentment

among the black girls here is that the black guys date white girls. What do you

think about that?

W: I have not dated any white girls. If a guy dates a white girl well there are black

girls dating white guys too.

F: As often.

W: p think there is more black guys and white girls. THe thing that it is that if a

guy wants to date white girls then it is his business and if the black girls just

feel left out well tough luck. The thing is like se- black girls straighten their

hair and straightening their hair is just like to me you see a black girl with a

flat nose and thick lips and straight hair that is like a bad imitation of a white

girl. Who wants an imitation if I can get thekeal thing why should I accept an

imitation. So, that is why I like hlck girls with Afros and that is sort of hard

for black girls on this campus to understand. Although my view maybe a minority

opinion, but it is just the way that I feel about it. I look at black girls with

straight hair and look at bvdek girls withoem straight hair and if you try to

judge a black girl by a white beauty standard then she just does not make it. It









is sort of hard to tell a girl that like certain girls on this campus wear Afros

but they sort of alternate between straight hair and Afros. You can tell that they

truely do not believe in wearing Afros that they believe that it is ugly. I believe

in a black girl being natural in wearing her kinky hair just like it is supposed

to be. So, that I can judge black girls by black beauty standards and just because

I think it is the way that it should be.

F: Why do you think that they straighten their hair?

W: Well, they probably straightne their hair because'their parents straighten their

hair. My parents straighten my sister's hair now and she is about four or ifve

years old. I guess that it is sort of hard to change all of a sudden what has

gone on all of your life. My parents like my hair short but I like it long. My

parents think that this is long but it is nothing. I guess it is just a question

that is going on all of our lives and it is hard to form their own values.

F: Why do your parents like your hair short?

W: Because it resembles a white person's hair more like when it is short it lays

down and like yours lays down on your head. THey think that it looks better that

way.

F: Do you think that there is more involved then the way that things look?

W: What do you mean more involved?

F: Well, let me explain it this way. We know that people talk about people's hair

and more often than not it is more involved thqn justfhe way that it looks. It

means certain things to people. It may also mean something to people who dislike

it more then justqesthetically that it looks better in other words it would have

some political you know long hair whites people dqot like. It is more then it

just does not look good people read other things into it.

W: That is why I like Afros it means something. It means that the girl is proud about

the way that she looks and she has a higher self-esteem and it sort of means

something to take out a girl like that. If a girl thinks that she is ugly how can

I turn her around and tell her that I like her the way that she is when she keeps

7










trying to change herself/ en you work hard to try to straighten your hair it

is just senseless to me. The majority of the girls on campus have straight hair and

they are all right but they still look like bad imitations.

F: Do the girls that you go out with mainly high-school girls?

W: No, they are mainly freshmen.

F: I thought that you dated mainly girls off campus?

W: Well, not necessarily I have only dated one girl off campus to four girls on campus

F: I see.

W: I would put it that way.

F: So, most of the girls that you go out with have the natural look?

W: Yes, but it looks like sometimes that I do not have much of a choice. 7~ ~A6 t4d< wy

F: What about things to do? Are there many things for black students to do on campus?
1-.
W: Jike what.

F: Socially.

W: Well, we can go to the Union and shoot pool. I have a television in my room so I

can whtch television.

F: Do you have a car?

W: I had a car and I got to go to the movies downtown and stuff like that.

F: What happened to your car?
L
W: I had an accident FPBRDL.

F: Did it total the car?

W: Yes, it totaled the car. I am supposed to get another car.

F: Was it your fault?

W: No, I was driving to Miamitl#*e I had an appointment at about twelve so I left here
*fi-';ay lhi- ^,'cV/ /A
at about three in the morning and I was driving on the turnpike and this lady cut

over the center line and I blew my horn and she came over more and just about forced

me off of the road completely. I had one wheel on the road and one wheel off of

the road. My initial reaction was to get back on the road and when I turned back









on to the road at seventy miles an hour I almost ran into her and therefore I turned

to the outside again and my car started rolling. It rolled over five times and when

it stopped rolling I just unhooked my seatbelt and crawled out of the window. THe

car was .o- 6-4o p wiAk b4h-whe4e) up in tle air. The other lady my car hit hers

and she jumped the guard rail and went into the other side in the ditch and one

ambulance came and took the lady to the hospital. I got charged with failure to

have my vehicle under control so I have to go to court during finals week.

F: You were charged with the accident?

W: Yes .22 / ClAd .W &v ^ i'".

F: How is the lady?

W: She just hurt her arm.

F: You both are extremely lucky by just surviving that accident.

W: When the car was rolling it was just like being at the e~i and being in one

of th6se rides so it was nothing real special except that it was the real thing.

THe windshield was completely gone.

F: What kind of a car did you have?

W: -A 1961 Cnet.

F: Why were you charged with the accident?

W: When the highway patrol came, my car was upside down in the street and this is the

way that I saw it, the man did not even look at me, he got the wi dnesses statement

and gave the lady first aid. I had a couple of cuts too but he did not do anything.

So, I didiot say anything. My money was scattered along the road because my bill-

fold came out and I had to go and pick up my money, and my papers and stuff like
2 A
that. After I did all of that, he got the peoples statements and he said that I

was passing the cars and that I was passing this lady when she came over. He asked

me how fast was I going and I said about seventy miles an hour. He said that the

people that I was passing said that they were going seventy miles an hour. So, I

said so what. He walked around and looked at the evidence on the street like the
a o I -f-A, 74X' /' /(t 7q?/,',-
skid marks and he went to a service station I guess and showed me the other car.
A 9
9








_r Xe I0 1r-_ 'r- i 1 71;,-/
He hhd this attitude from the beginning. He said look what you did jpt like that.

He kept asking me questions like trying to get me to give conflicting stories you

know. The only thing that I told him was that I knew what the lady did and that

was all that I could say. He just charged me with the accident like it was nothing

to do. The attitude that I had was like this white cop and this white lady over

here and this nigger in this car did not know what he was doing so I am going to

fix him up. THis was the attitude that I got.

F: You were by yourself?

W: Right, I was alone and like what could I do except just to play it cool. When I

go to court I am just going to tell it like it was because if I get fined fifty

dollars so what because the way that I feel I do not have to prove anything to

anybody. I know w bt I did and I know what she did and that is just the way that

it is because whether it was my fault or not I will get another car because I had

all kind of insurance.

F: How is it in class here with students? Do you find that it is different being
-!bf '/ Y^yow we-re tW;/ e7
black I know that is a hard thing to remind you of.

W: Well, I guess that I find that some white students put up a front like if they

have a black friend that he iLmmm 0 special or something different. I guess

that is all right to be but I guess that ihSy would be better if they would just

be natural. I guess that they have the same attitude that I have like I am just

there. I guess (Cb it could be that they have not met very many black students

before and I guess when they meet one that they have stereotypes and they think

that he should be one way. Since I am not a certain way they I am something different

and this is mainly the feeling that I get. They are either real friendly or they

just do not know the people at all. No casual friends
no-friends at all and most of the teachers are like that too. I know most of my

teachers personally because most of the time I am the only black student in the

class. Most female teachers seem to have a problem because they seem to be

afraid of me or something. I guess that they have the attitude like sometimes










when female teachers talk to me they do not look me directly in the eye and that

sort of makes me think that something is wrong. So, what do you think about it?

F: I do not know.

W: If somebody talks to you and they do not look ou in the eye.

F: Yes, I think that B is g feeling i tOey gios- ss

a little supicious,_but do they look other people in the eye? -'en Q r co/

W: Exactly, I have had this experience about two times. One lady was from Mississippi

and like the first part of the yearad "



F: What do you mean get use to you?

W: Like at first she would-c1B look me in the eye. I stayed in her class hekisle-
A A
// /A quarter and then she would talk to me just like any other student but before that

she just would other lady she would do the same all year like if students

are out here in a class she would turn her head from side to side but when she got

over here to where I was she would suddenly stop and golthe other way. It is a

little hard to explain unless you are there I guess.

F: Did you read Ellision's Invisible Man?

W: No, I have not. / s / f

F: He talks about that. That iis a sort of symbol described by a lot of black writers

in a lot of different ways.

W: They seem to act like I am not there.

F: That is the whole idea about being invisible. Baldwin talks about noeei knows my

name, kina ofthing. It is an odd feeling. I know when I first came to college we

have certain ideas and feelings about things and you read famous people. I felt
7f1.41 ^ // (f &/i'J /'r/ e.4 4 a7 / o ci7
these things myself Have you had any contact with administrators?
'?I' >'& ^^''sM^'^7 1' 77e:-J /l 0o7-111e. DZ>vs.
W: Not necessarily,like Dean Hale I think that I pledged his fraternity Delta Upsilon

but I never saw him before.










F: Are you a DU?

W: No, I am not a DU. I e out, s& l pledge/about two weeks before initiation.

F: Why is that?

W: It was just abanbwbd- to identify with white guys. It is just like being on ,-^c.

guard all of the time.

F: Why did you pledge initially?

W: Because a guy came and talked to me and I guess that he thought that it would be

a good idea so I thought that I would try it.

F: How long did you pledge?

W: Well, the first pledge period started at the of the quarter but I think that

I was about one week late. I stayed in that whole quarter except for that first

week that I missed until two weeks before initiation. The initiation was the next

quarter so must have been about ten weeks. I still know some of the guys now.
,b' taclA Che,,r 4*,he thck &t/e fhIN<
We speak when we pass. &cfB acvkg was just me because I find it hard to trust

white people. I guess that it is just that I am prejudice too.

F: Do you think that it would be a good idea to have black fraternities here?

W: It might be a good idea but it would probably be black fraternities. I do not

believe in fraternities in general. It is just a thing for socially maladjusted

people.

F: Socially maladjusted?

W: Exactly to get together to have parties somebody to get drunk with. That is the

only thing that I see it as. A fraternity what it there except that you have some

close friends you pay dues, you have meetings, you help write some junk in a book

about the history of the fraternity. What does all of this stuff mean? When I gst

~Q college I am going As 2 a DU or

something, I though about it and plus I was not feeling exactly there,like I was

in a fraternity for initiation but I just did not feel part of the fraternity.

If it had been a black fraternity I would have probably stayed there. I was sort









doing bad academically that quarter too.

F: Because of the fraternity?

W: Right, it takes a lot of time like we had to clean up the house on Saturday, clean

up after parties and I just did not like it.

F: Are you a member of BSU?

W: Yes.

F: Are ygu active? / T,.s"

W: What d you mean active? that is the only thing that I could do is to

be a member of the ministry.

F: Are you?

W: No.

F: Why not?

W: Because I do not basically believe in this leadership that they have. The guy that

is supposed to be the President or the Premier or the Dictator or whatever he is

supposed to be. He is like on top and he gets up in front of white people and he

giwee-s~ a lot of bullshit about how bad y4-mae been treating us and iMteheve

ei-t been doinf us right. The man turns right around and he walks around with

white girls and that is sort of basically contradictory on his part. If he likes

white people and that is his bag then why does he not just forget about the whole

Black Student Union and stop talking bullshit. It is sort of two-faced to me the

way that he does. It is sort of bad the way that he can talk about stuff like

discrimination in America and stuff like that. It is all well and he can talk about
it and it sound5 F odc
it and it sound g e can be talking to his white friends, I guess, and
A A
a white girl will have her arm around this W ack guy and I walk by and this man

does not even notice me. He is suppose to be the big black man in the v3 'ad

ied that is why I basically disagree with him although I am still a member and I pay

my duese owt/ s /fe V rc,

F: Does anyone er refute him?

W: No, it is just like this everyoszeknows he does it and it is just his business.
z)









F: Yes, but let us look at it this way. I guess that we are talking about Mitch Dashi-

W: Tbate-io__ him-4 hfli.

F: He speaks fo lack people and he speaks for the ,B0. Now, if you are a member of

the BSU and even if you are not most people see the BSU as representing the black

students on this campus. If someone like Dashin does that acts in a manner that

you disagree with then he is representing you whether you like it or not.'

W:c1 exactly

F: So, if you dislike what he does it would seem like it is like the silent majority

in this country. People says that NIxon does what he wants because everybody

agrees with him because no 6 says anythign against him. If you do not say anything

against the chairman then obviously people think that you agree with him. You are

not the first person that said that.

W: About Mitch Dash ?

F: Yes but noft~P ia.emsays anything. So, most people think that what he does is

cool.

W: Yes, like he is supposed to be married but everybody knows that he gets around a

lot and there is no big thing about it. I guess that people take the attitude

that it would be interfering n his personal affairs. /1

F: Yes, I agree if that is all that is involved,but when he speaks as the chairman

of BSU.

W: There is nothing basically wrong with Midth dating white girls. It is just that

he is supposed to be real militant. He walks around with his goatee and his funny

looking hat os. To say one thing and really believe another thing it is sort of

hard to follow a guy like that. I do rot follow people like that anyway. Just

like in a big crowd when we are having a demonstration and it is hard to jump

when the guy up front says jump. It is not being into the BSU that much down into

it because the meeting when he was voted to be President or whatever he is I was '

bty there and like we have not had another election since then. He is a pretty










good leader like he, I guess, that people like him basically because he talks big.

We might consider doing something about him but for now I guess that he is all

right.

F: WIen are the elections coming up?
=4r
W: I dorWapt know.

F: Who are the black leaders on campus?

W: You mean the BSU?

F: Well.

W: Weil, Mitch Dashkn is the only one. We have ministries, like the ministry 9f
/,A 4 I/I/ //- e'l a
education, the ministry of defense, the ministry of culture ut they are not

really leaders they are just people that have a little responsibility. The whole

BSU is st yctured after the Communist Party, you know, we have the ministries

and it is suppose to be a revolutionary organization vhef people are not cf/

els revloutionary and as militant and as violent as they would like to be.

F: 4; ey would like to be?

W: Right, you sit around and you talk about what O'Connell innt doinejust like

Black Week. I think that O'Connell promised to give us some money or something

for Black Week and at the last minute he came up with some stuff like there was

no money. Dash was real upset but it is just like being upset with a m and

, 1' 1-Gsja g that you-vid burn down his house but you are not going to do it. So, that

is the main attitude of the BSU. They want to be politically active but it is just

like they are going to a University and they know that they have to stay at this

University and they know that you would probably get arrested if you were too unlawful

or violent or whatever it was. It is just like the people that go to thisdniversity

or almost black bourgeois like upper class blacks and doing something revolutionary

like doing something to get major attention would be like what I am trying to say

is that theypeaTl have something to lose. eyey have to stay at this University.

When the students got arrested for making the guys clean up over

at Talbert, they ended up defending themselves like they sort of regretted having
15









to do that because they ss~a-f- set around and talked about, :kfSLa-s1et-.e Ee

S and when you get arrested that is sort of just like talking about one thing and

when the time comes to do it some but it. So, that is how the people

are at the BSU. THey want things to be right all of a sudden'but it is just like

they artaking a sort of slow and moderate approach to it. They talk militant.

F: Would you say that basically they do not fYa "p positions-tE

ofpr students?

W: Right.

F: What do your parents do?

W: Well, my father was te school principal in Mississippi and he taught at a junior

college in Alabama and now he is a Baptist preacher and my mother is a school/

teacher in Tampa.

F: Why did you laugh when I asked you.
Ic
W: BecauseX couple d6 people have asked me that question and when I say something

one time then I think that I am just saying it over and over again.

F: It seems like a reasonably iehr question and I was just wondering.

W: Yes, you know being Baptist black people are supposed to be real religious anyway

and in religion if things are bad in this world there is another world where

things will be better. That is why black people are sort of religious. THey
-, &Gd) 6-0o&1 *I
talk about God, help us and being iBaptist like most blacks are Baptist anyway.

My father is a Baptist preacher.

F: From the National Baptist Convention?

W: National Baptisand Southern CeitibnSy He works for the Southern Baptist.

F: He does. THey are integrated?

W: I go to First Baptist downtown and I am a member and suppose to be the first

black member in 100 yearsAl being integrated is sort of contradictory of the

whole idea of a church aysyaltogether like a church is not like a social

organization. A church is all people and saying that is integrated.

F: I see it that way too in terms of pat having to worry if a church is integrated

16












Nevertheless, when we talk about theory and *gctise that we know that southern

Baptists churches are just about 100% segregated. .
W: Ygu Wi w t + -[-Alk tfhey'' 'i H- e/ 4, /, ; r /a r17
W: I guess tat-hy had a guilt complex and they ~s rt-Xa*e*=gat some blacks. My

father was a black missionary, home mission in Tampa he teaches black ministers.

He is head of a school that teaches black ministers, and it is financed by the

southern Baptists.

F: I think that is one of the greatest hyprocracies in the United States.

W: What?

F: Separation in churches.

W: THere is a church around here some Baptist churchethat do not believe in

integration, like First Baptist when I joined it was like something special.

The people were not expecting it and to me it was nothing v joif'the church.

THey had to call a meeting of the Deacons and stuff like that and they just

made a big thing. THe whole thing just showed t me that the people were just

talking a lot of bullshit. Their preacher was talking about he was preaching

these sermons about racial harmony and all people are'al in GOd's eyes. When

I joined he said that he was glad that I joined and I guess that he knew how

white people felt basically and that could be the reasonA% t he considered it to

be a big thing.

F: If you were able to start college over again would you come here again?

W: I probably wouldW t start college. I would probably just go into the Air Force

or something and then come to college.

F: Join what?

W: Air Force, Navy or something.

F: Why is that?

W: I am number 38 in the draft and when I finish college I know that I am going to

get drafted. It is just like going to school here and then all of a sudden finish -









just have to break. It is just like learning h to be a doctor and when you get

out you are not a doctor you are a soldier or something. This is the way t4t I

see it and this is why I would just try to get this military business over with.

F: Let 6 say, hypothetically, that was not a problem and we are just trying to

isolate the educational bit.

W: I think that I would come to the University of Florida. -.ud.h ~ifnoireason

not to.

F: FOr the most part you have pretty satisfied.

W: Like what?

F: Well, in your overall experience.

W: Well, yes, I have to study here and I know that I am learning something. At black

schools I would just take it easy and sit back and make A's and B's without very

much effort.

F: Why are you so sure that is true?

W: Because I did it.

F: In a black high school?
w R A 4-0 E,41/y,
Fr Do you think that it would have been the same if you had gone to a black college?

W: Not necessarily, I would have to study a little bit more. It is just like

competitionlike being on top btegpl H h-g fOth much effort. Being average it
A e / /-+ dr A
is just like I have to study andaasathe competition.

F: What is your major?

W: re-vet.

F: It is usually a major like in chemistry or biology.

W: Yes, but I am thinking about changing my major.

F: To' what?

W: SOcial science or something like that. I was taking physics an this quarter I

dropped physics. I can do physics easy but it was a big problem doing those

problems. It took too much time. I can do physics and chemistry and math and

stuff. I do not really like chemistry, I mean I like chemistry but I do not like

18









math and physics. I guess in Social Science you sit down and you read and you think

about stuff and that is the way that I see it. It is sort of easy and is something

that I like more. 7/r

F: Obvouisly, you will have to changethe rest of your life.

W: RIght, exactly.

F: Have you got any thing else in mind?

W: Well, I thought about psychology because I like the way I like trying to figure

out people. Like how does a person think and when I see a white person and he

looks at me or he does not look at me, I try to figure out his background, what

were his parents like. THat is why I thought about psychology.

F: Would you change anything here? If you had the power, what would you make different

at this school?

W: The first thing that I would do I would get rid of O'Connell. I think that basically

O'Connell is a racist. His racist beliefs are sort of /ca and I would get

more black professors. I do not know of any black professors, n TigerS kftke Roy

MItchell he is not a professorhe is just a guy we BW-maade O'Connell put there 9'

So, HEW could see that we would have some blacks here.
A.
F: Do you have any relationship with Roy Mitchell?

W: He comes to the Black Student Union meetings. I think that he knows me.

F: What do you think about the job that he is doing?

W: His job is all right I guess. What do you mean what job is he doing?

F: Do you think that he is pretty successful?
60- hv 7
W: What is --that he is suppose to dot

F: Well, that is a matter of otg@ .
Cad
W: As I see it, he is just a man who O'Connell *~,p< talk to the black students on

this campus and if that is his job then he is doing a good job.

F: What would you like to be seeing him doing?

W: Exactly what he is doing I guess.

F: Do$sL think that it is important to have more black professors?

19









W: Like why not. When they had this strike here on campus ad they voted on whether

they wanted black professors on campus or not. It is just like they &id not vote
4/A /4b /e/l&
for Jewish professors or white professors so why did they have t vote for black

professors.

F: You mean it ought to be more natural.

W: RIght. It is still like something special.

F: Do you distinguish much between white and Jewish?

W: I just used that for an example.

F: A lot of black students do and I was just wondering.

W: If you have dark hair, like you have dark hair, I can identify with you more because

you have dark hair. If you had dark skin sort of like Puerto Rican or something

like that I could identify with you more. IF you want to use it that way like

saying is there a difference between Jewish and white, it is not that way,l-ike

I figure that Jewish people are a lot more liberal then the typical white people

would be. Jewish people are white people anyway so there is basically no

difference.

F: What about more bp3ck students?

W: More b ck students definitely so because I think that blacks have been,.. I get

tired of talking about racial stuff. Black people have been deprived and I know

it. I went to black schools and like I said I was a top student. If it takes a

top black to get into the University of Florida where average whites come in.

A black making 300 is something special but a white student making 300 so what.

Since blacks have been deprived in there schools, I think that there should be

a special effort made to get ie~e-students. I do not believe in lowering the

300 mark just to let in black students but I believe that black students should

be given some type of special consideration.

F: Well, they do not turn down the bA1ck students who do not have the 300.

W: No, but it is just like me, like I made more then 300 on m senior placement.

If my parents could not afford to send me I would not be here. THis is the basic

20









problem with blacks. My parents are well-to-do blacks and most black people

are not well-to-do blacks they are poor people. So, that is why I believe that

they should have some special consideration.

F: I am not arguing with you but I am trying to figure out what you are saying. You

said would not lower the but what do you mean special consideration?

W: I mean money wise and going out to get these students.

F: The ones yho do have the qualifications.

W: Right, exactly.

F: Would you encourage blacks to come here?

W: Yes, I would. I would tell them dd' t come here and expect to think that every-

thing is all right because I think tha whites on campus t considerctha

' black student as A nigger. That is basically the way that I think that it is.

F: From your talk it does not seem that you feel that so much as far as relating

specifically and then you end up saying that.

W: You say that I am basically contradictory.

F: Well, I was just wondering.

W: You say that I am basically well adjusted.

F: h reporting things, you seem to think that things are not that bad and then you

finish up by saying that.
I tl PI 1
W: Well, I S.eJit this way. It is just like I am here at this university and I

know how basically white people feel. This is my fourth year in going to white

schools. It does not bother me if a guy is a racist.

F: Not at All?

W: Not at all. Like if a guy calls me a nigger so what. If I know that I am a nigger)

and he knows it then what difference does it make. When I first started to go to

white schools, it was something special to see a guy like the word you people use

1'5 a redneck. I never met a guy like that before. I did not truely believe that

people could be like that. Since I(Gve met a couple of people like that, I can

see how a guy could have these racial theories and truely believe all of this stuff.

21









It is just like that. The reason that I say that it is all right to go to this

school I was talking about educationally, I believe that this is basically a

racist country and I am going to have to compete against white people so why not

get he white man's education. So, if I say that things are all right educationally

like I still feel that this diversityy is racist and th5country is racist but it

does not bother me that much because I have like other things to think about.

What could I do now except drop out of school and burn Mp a couple of buildings.

The only thing that you get by biur.ng up a couple of buildings and shooting a

few people is to get people to listen to you. THere are other ways. I guess

that being sort of black bourgeois could sort of remove me from directly from the
50 +-,
problem of being discriminated against g'3soat speak. I still know that

it exists and just like being aaid black people more sort of removes me from

this white oppression. You say that I say things are all right, but I guess that

I should qualify in what way things are right. Racially, I still feel that t0ey

are the same. It is sort of hard for a person to change his whole wag~d thinking.

F: Did you say that racially we are all the same?

W: Yes, I sit here and talk to you. If I do not know anything about your background,

I aid just look at you and think you are like everybody else.

F: Like whites or like people?

W: Like redneck like everybody else. I would sort of alienate you from the problem.

You say bA*cks are racists too and P/ think that I am racist.

F: THere is that problem aEd racism i$ reverse.

W: RIght but I think that black racism is basically defensive,-' r
F: Reaction.

W: RIght THat is the way that I think it is different.

F: Have you ever been accused of not being 0yal enough of not being black enough?

W: No, I have not been accused of not being militant enough. It is just that there

are not very militant people on campus.

F: A lot of people talk a lot of militancy.

22








W: Right, it is like I said we-mee hypocritical.

F: Db' people talk at you say you are an Uncle Tom.
,660,b'y /i<,f r / M ^-t .-.<',d ,...
W: Noj the people on campus know me and they know how I feel basically. When I

pledged this white fraternity, I think about one or two guys thought that I was

going too far that time. It did not bother me because I knew exactly what I was

doing. When I know how I feel, why do I have to prove something to somebody else.






PAGE: ONE SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON BLACK 16B

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: The following is a taperecorded interview, of the University of Florida

Student, Lenora Wimby. Lenora is from Gainesville, and is presently a

freshman.

(DISREGARD THIS INTRODUCTION. THE SUBJECT IS DAVID JACKSON)



F: Where are you from ?

D: Noma...Florida.

F: Noma, Florida ?

D: Right.

F: Where is that ?

D: West of Tallahassee... a hundred miles. Not very big.

F: I see.

D: Um huh.

F: What year are you in ?

D: Uh...5th year...Engineering.

F: Right, right. Have you been here the whole time ?

D: No, I transferred in from...uh...Florida A.&M.

F: When ?

D: In '67...September. Uh...

F: Why did you want to come here ?

D: Well uh...I went through a Pre-Engineering course at Florida A.&M. and uh,

I needed an Engineering School.

F: Um huh.

D: So...uh...it was a...I thought about FSU, to be closer to home was my
on1
basic criteria, and uh, they,: offered Engineering Science at FSU, so I

...this is the closest school.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: Had you considered going anywhere else ?

D: Not really...no. Uh, money was one problem.

F: Why umh...why did you go to A.&M. first ?

D: Well, I don't know...uh...I didn't really know what I wanted to do, or I

didn't know what I was going into when I went up to A.&M. And uh...a

couple days before registration, I decide on Pre-Engineering...and jMb I)1 'y

lbMA___ I didn't know what I wanted to do in high school.

F: Oh, you decided that quickly, and you've stuck with it all this time ?

D: Yeah, I have.

F: That's really...a lot of people are sure what they want to do, and then

even change their minds.

D: Yeah. I uh... J-M-- people around my hometown in school...went to A.&M.

and...well, they told me it was about the best school. One of the better

schools for blacks, you know...

F: Um huh.

D: ...And that sort of thing, and it was close to home, and do what you want

to do with a degree from A.&M. Teach, and that sort of stuff. And so...I

guess that's why I went.

F: Yeah. Out of high school had you considered going anywhere else ?

D: Umh...not really...no. Like I said, any out...out of state school

would have been a much more expensive, and money was one problem, and uh,

E:U. was pretty close...fairly close to my home, 100 miles

away, and...FAMU was the only school I applied to out of high school.

F: I see. Did you go to an integrated high school ?

D: No. The uh...the school I went to was uh...phased out the year after I

graduated. Holmes County had one black school there, and uh, it's a...






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: ...small county. Uh...three or four white schools, and uh...the year after

I graduated the uh...there was the uh...was it the law passed by Congress

or court something...said that uh...schools had to integrate, and uh,this

sort of thing. And uh, the school was phased out, there were only about

100...125...130 students out there.

F: K through twelve ?

D: Yeah. No, one through twelve.

F: Oh, yeah. No kindergarten. So up to the point when you came here, you'd

only been to predominantly black schools ?

D: Right.
014-
F: And that's sort of Whemistic, you know, predominantly black schools...

Did you have any apprehensions about coming here ?

D: Well uh...in regards to what ? Uh...

F: Well now...just the idea that uh...for the first time you're going to a school

which is overwhelmingly white.

D: Well yeah, I did...uh but FAMU, compared to my high school actually was

about the same basis. 3000 students at FAMU, and my high school was real
?d
small... ebi compared to other universities and colleges, FAMU is a small

school...and uh the size was one thing. Nineteen or twenty thousand

students, and uh...white school...

F: Um huh.

D: Uh...and too, some of the little people had told me that uh...academics

were.auh...you know, a place where I could only stand a year, you know, I

maybe couldn't make it, and that sort of thing. I...I had some doubts.

I had to give it a try anyway.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: In general, what sort of the uh...perception of the FAMU students, of the

University of Florida ?

D: Perceptions...so far as...?

F: Well, let me just say this, a lot of questions I'll ask you, I'm going to

make as open-enddd as possible, because sometimes in talking to people, you

can get the kind of response, you won't get by...kind of questioning, So,

you know, when I ask you a sort of vague question...of course what I want

to hear is what you think is most important...

D: Um huh.

F: Rather than my getting...

D: Waht are you...what are you doing here ? Are you doing a survey, or...

or something on black students ?

Well, umh...I'm doing a study about black students on this campus...in general

...and hopefully to get the feelings, and well put---well, the questionnaire

touched on the various areas I want to touch upon. And uh...

D: For a thesis, or what ?

F: Well, that's part of it, but, you know, this will eventually be part of

my Doctorial Dis rtation...but more than that, I spent the first two

quarters talking to black students...finding the kind of things that they

thought ought to be found out...and talking to Roy Mitchell also. The

kinds of things, that they don't have somebody to work on...and, you know,

that needs to be found out. And I think there's a lot of changes that

need to take place here, and a lot of people feel that they heard just a

few black voices...which I think is true. I think there's a misconception,

that the only blacks on this campus that ever say anything...are like, you

know, maybe Mitch Dasher, or Larry Jordan, people like that...and people

feel what they say is pretty much...consentual opinion, but I don't know






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: ...if that's true...as a matter of fact, it's turning out not to be true.

My hypothesis is pretty well, you know, umh...supported. And so, we're

trying to find out, you know, the way blacks feel about being here...the

changes that they'd like to see that are here. And for the most part, it

was very important to get a very large base...of black opinions, and of black

attitudes...rather than just one or two people who's...you know, can just

be pigeon holed...say, "Well, those people always complain." But that's

often done, and what I wanted this to do is reach as many blacks e af-~g a-'

$S possible, and get their feeling of, you know, of things that have happened

here, things that ought-to beedifferent, things that they'd like to see
LC
racist experiences and so forth.

D: O.K.

F: O.K. ? So, I was thinking...academics...is the University of Florida

pretty much looked up to as a really tough place ?

D: Uh...yeah, I think so. I think it's basically because...you have so few

blacks coming out of here, you know, nobody's been through it, or go

back and tell you what it's really like.

F: Um huh, right.

D: You...you have a second hand opinion, more or less, of some professors

who...who view the school in one light, but can't really tell you what

it's really like to go down here, and to take courses, and to get a degree

from this school.

F: Um huh.

D: Uh...I think the basic problem there is a lack of feedback. You have so

few blacks...uh, very few blacks tfat graduate from here, and are able to

go back to the black students, and tell you what it's all about.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: When you got the questionaire...what did you think ?

D: Well, I didn't know...uh...just another questionnaire, I guess.

F: Have you gotten many ?

D: No, not very many. Perhaps uh...one, or two, or three, that I've gotten

since I've been here.

F: Um huh. Why did you fill it out ?

D: Well...I knew it couldn't hurt...I didn't think it could hurt, and uh...why

not ? If you're interested in uh...finding reasons for some injustices

that might exist on campus...and can do any good, as far as...

F: Do you know anybody else that got the questionnaire ?

D: Uh...yeah.

F: Did they fillt out ?

D: I think so.

F: So regardless...the majority of people haven't filled it out, and I wish

more people had your attitude. People say, "Well, we're sick and tired of
-o-
(the phrase has been) being put under a micrJcope." You know. And if

I were to attempt to write something about the way blacks feel, blacks

would say, "You don't know. How in the Hell do you know? You know.

But when you talk about people, they say, "We don't want to be under a

microscope." So that's a dilemma there, that if you want to find out

about black people, aen you have to talk to black people, and on the

other hand, blacks don't want to have anything to do with you. What are you

going to do...?

D: Oh, there's a N S& arg too...amoung blacks right now, that you know, the

whites are so concerned with wanting surveys, and uh...giving out
questionnaires, and th sort of thing...that it's really useless, you know.
questionnaires, and th5& sort of thing...that it's really useless, you know.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: We're tired of being surveyed and put under the microscope, that sort of :

thing. And it's more...it would be more beneficial if you would study

your own groups, you know, and uh...see what their problem is. Because we

know what our problem is, and it won't aid us any by telling us what it is.

And you know what the problem...the inner problem is between whites and

blacks...and uh...it seems to be the opinion of most blacks...that you're

concerned with our side mostly, and that you're aasr the opinion that you

don't have any problems, or any...

F: Uh...I don't know...I think there's a problem both ways certainly. I

think uh...there's a difference between whites that say they know the

problems that exist, and those wha are really willing to accept that the

problem exists. In other words, talking to president O'connell...he acts,

you know, his statement is that there's no racism at this school.

D: Yeah. The thing I was getting to though is...that you find most surveys

and questionnaires are sent to blacks...you don't find any surveys connected

on the white students... Why do you feel the way you do, and why don't you

want more blacks here, more black administrators, and black athletes, and

this sort of thing...and nobody ever connects these things in that direction.

F: I think you're right probably recently, but in the past that hasn't been

true. In other words, in the past there've been inumerable studies...

talking about open-closed mind, prejudice, and so forth..iconducted at:--

large universities among white students...because there weren't black students.

And so now, a matter of perspective has taken place, because it is new, and

it's the first chance that people have gotten a chance to talk to blacks in

a white environment like this, you know. So it seems like those are the only

things that have been done, but there're just reams, and reams, and reams,






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: ...of studies about the nature of prejudice, you know, among whites. And...

but it is a new thing...and that's why...I think people have short memories,

and they forget about those that...that's all people ever do, is study the

black people. But...there are black problems, you know, I mean the

attitudes of blacks towards...let's say their classes, at this school,

whether or not discrimination actually does take place. It's not a myth...

there are a lot of things that are in the Alligator but what we're trying

to do...is find out what's, you know, what's the wheat, and what's the

chaff, and what things really exist, and what things people talked about,

you know, just because they heard other people talk about them. And so

like...in my talk to the students...invariably certain things always come

up. 1P ch I'm becoming very assured that those are the things that really

exist. In other words, people mention a certain course...unsollicited.

Not, "How did you feel about your treatment in that course?" But when

something comes up over and over that there's a couple of courses on this

campus that seem to be rather, you know, biased in their approach as seen

by almost every black student that I've talked to. So those are things,

that if I can get enough people...those are real things that we can present,

not hearsay, but we have 90% of the black students that feel that way, then

there must be something to it. Not just Balljourn making a speech in the

Alligator and there's, you know, there's a lot of difference. What about

since you've been here...how's it been...as a black student ?

D: Well, it's uh...it's...I guess it's overall it's been a little better than

I expected. What I uh...from FAMU uh...so far as academics, I haven't had

any academic problems. Uh, when I first got up here...the only incident

that I can count...so far as living conditions in the dorm, some of the

things were...I...when I first came down, I had a white roommate, who...

7






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: ...uh...who moved out. We had an argument or two the first couple of

weeks, and he moved out. Then I moved...that's the only incident, the only

major incident that I can remember having. I moved out after that...with

a black roommate. Uh...then I got a single room, and I'm off-campus now,

so no problems there. So far as course work, and that sort of thing...well,

all the...the only drawback I could see that I've had, would be uh...when

you first start the courses...when I first started three years ago...uh, I

didn't know anybody. I was the only black over in Industrial Engineering,

and uh...uh...groups of whites, say three or four groups of whites would

get together, and do homework, you know, this sort of thing. And uh...I,

I have to get all mine on my own, you know, and so far as academics, that's

I guess, the only drawback that I have. But after...you more or less establish

yourself, you know, and some of the whites recognize that you can do some

things, and they willingly come and more or less want you to tutor them

or something like that, but before you establish yourself they uh...they

kind of draw back, and don't really want you to get with them.

F: What kind of problems did you have with your roommate ?

D: Well, he uh...he said he told me his parents didn't...didn't want him

living with a black, you know, and he was there before I was. I was late

applying for a room. Uh...I lived in one of the lounges over here in 41n,, 1I/

(QMBMs for four or five days before I was assigned a room, you know, and

I was assigned to his room. And uh...after two or three days uh...when I

first went in, he was relatively out going, you know, I expected it, really.

Then after a couple of days, he said he had written home and told his

parents, he told me had written home and told his parents that he had a

black roommate, and uh...they didn't go for the idea.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: They had nothing against blacks, you know, they had black friends, and he

has black friends in Miami, but uh, they just didn't want him living with

a black roommate.

F: Um huh.

D: So I said, well if you've got to move, you've got to move, you know, that's

your problem. Get a room.

F: But you said that you had had some arguments with him ?

D: Yeah. The thing about it, he...like I said, he'd been up there before I had,

and uh...he had...he had uh...some of his friends...he had made friends

with some of the guys across the hall, in the next couple of rooms, and

they were coming over, you know, and going out and playing handball, and

that sort of thing...and uh...he felt that I should move, you know, so I

said no, I'm not goi---I'm not moving, uh if you don't want to be in here,

fine with me..leave. I do betterby myself anyway, you know.

F: Um huh.

D: So...he uh...he got a little...I guess uptight about that, and he said

that he could really make it hard for me, you know, he could come in and

play his taperecorder and record player at all times of night, and I

couldn't do any studying. I was studying pretty hard...pretty often then,

more than he was anyway. And Uh...when we were together we didn't have

anything else to do. He started pledging his first quarter up here...

F: What fraternity ?

D: E O But he didn't really do anything, and I was studying mostly...and he

said he could really make it hard for me, you know, and that made me angry,

and we had a few words, and I told him he could try it if he wanted to,

and we'd go to blows, or something like that. So he...after a couple of

days he uh...eventually moved out. He moved somewhere, I don't know where.

9






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: Do you see him anymore ?

D: I've seen him once or twice.

F: Do you get along now ?

D: Well, I just see him...I don't talk to him.

F: What about in your classes ?

D: Well, like I said...uh...the...so far as the classes are concerned, my only

problem was at the begining...my first...this is my third year here. I'll

graduate in June, And uh...my only problem was...during the first year,

I wasn't able to get in study groups, and this sort of thing, and it really

took me a long long time to do homework, because you have so much homework

over in engineering, you know, if you don't...if you can talk about it

with somebody, and get different views, you can do it a lot faster, you know,

and my problem was that I didn't have anybody to talk about it with. And

uh...I had to do it all on my own, and it took a lot lot more time. I don't

know if my grade...I...it probably helped me a lot. My grades didn't fall

because of it, but I felt that I was uh...that was one of my drawbacks.

F: Yeah. How are yo doing in school ?

D: Well, I got a...I've got a three uh...3.34 right now..

ave agge And I uh...I'm a member of uh...three honor societies over in

engineering...ho societies. I'm the president of one of them...

Industrial Engineering Honor Society.

F: Um huh.

D: So...

F: How do you get along with professors ?

D: Well, uh...so far as the contact I've had with the professors, you know,

I haven't really had that much contact with the entire faculty...just

going to a course, and uh...taking a course, and then never seeing the

10






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






D: ...guy again, you know, except over in the department...say hi, and that sort

of thing. Uh...but I say overall, I...no problems. They've been pretty

fair I think.

F: You know some black students said...and they resent that...they felt that

professors go overboard...the other way.

D: Oh...well...

F: Have you ever had any feelings about that ?

D: No, I...I think that the faculty over here has been...fair.

F: Um huh.

D: Right down the line. I believe so.

F: What about social life on campus ?

D: Terrible.

F: O.k....why ?

D: Well, because uh...I don't know, I was...I guess it's worse for me...or it

was worse three years ago...than it would be for anybody just coming in,

because...I had been to FAMU two years, and social life up there is great.

Uh, I came down here, and I don't know, it had very few blacks, three years

ago, 50 or 60 maybe, and uh...some of those were off campus, and commuting,

and that sort of thing, and no girls...there was really nothing to do. NO

uh...no parties to go to, nobody to date, and uh there was really nothing

to do on weekends but study. It was really bad in that respect. And then

of course, the places around here are mostly...I think...geared towards

whites. They don't have any entertainment that, you know, interests the

average black.

F: Are you talking about on campus ?

D: No, off campus around campus...

F: Um huh.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: Oh, or on campus too. And so far as fraternities, and this sort of thing,

you know, I don't know if there's really...really any need for any black

fraternities or that sort of thing, but if you compare social life to

whites, then you have to consider black fraternities, you know. They have

an outlet, and they party every wehkend...drink on the beach, and beer parties,

and this sort of thing. And we just don't have that outlet for black

students.

F: Has it gotten better since you've been here ?

D: Oh yeah...we're getting more black students, It gets better with more

black students.

F: Do you date people mainly on campus or off campus ?

D: Uh...on campus.

F: It seems there's a trend...that more and more people are dating people in

the community. Have you seen that ?

D: I don't...I've seen it. Yeah. I don't know if it's uh...actually enough

to call it a trend, but uh...I've seen it.

F: Um huh.

D: I don't know, I've seen...I'd say so far as dating on campus and off campus,

it's about equal...so far as students on campus dating off campus people.

F: Yeah, well...why I say it's a trend...just to say that it is possibly

equal makes it a trend, because originally it almost didn't exist at all.

D: Um huh.

F: You know, people...were...somehow afraid to go out in the community, and

people worried about this. And now it seems to be a little bit e--s

going, as far as people going out and dating.

D: Yeah, I think that might be because...the blacks are getting more community

conscious, you know, they have to intermingle with te community, and they

12






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: ...have a responsibility out there; whereas, this idea didn't exist before.

You didn't feel obligated to anything in anyway.

F: What about...do you find it uh...easy to date girls on campus ?

D: Well, the only girl I've dated has been on campus. Uh...I guess in my

first year, I didn't date at all, because uh...I knew only two or three girls,

and they had guys, and those guys were friends of mine.

F: Um huh.

D: I didn't...I didn't go out in the community that much...so I didn't date.

Uh...then after one or two quarters, my second year, I met a girl, and I've

been dating her since. Linda, she's a...she was on campus then, she's

graduated since.

F: I see. So were...we're going to be talking about things you've seen

other people experience.

D: Yeah.

F: You're tied down all ready.

D: Um huh.

F: I've heard...let me just...a lot of black guys say that girls on this

campus, black girls, uh...do you know what high-s'ditty means ?

D: What ?

F: High-s'ditty.

D: No.

F: That's a new term that I've picked up...but the girls are snobs...that they

make it very tough to go out with. You know, that they play really hard to

get, and sort of all those kinds of things that go into making a girl like

that. Do you find that at all ? I mean, have you heard that ? You know,

this isn't your personal experience.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: No, I...I don't believe it's true. Uh...the guys that I know uh...date
-e-
black girls on campus, and they don't seem uh...what...high-s'ditty ?

F: Yeah.

D: Snobbish or anything.

F: You never heard that term ?

D: No.

F: I just recently heard it, and I was surprised. I hadn't heard it before.

What about uh...do many people date white girls ?

D: Oh well...it's not as prevalent as you might...of course I don't know

what you might think, but I...it's isolated cases. Uh...here and there.

It's not very prevalent.

F: That's black guys dating white girls ?

D: Right.

F: ~404 in the few cases you know about...do you think that black girls

resent that ?

D: I think so...yeah. Uh...I think black guys resent black girls dating

white guys. It's just...I don't know why it is, but...yeah, they resent

it...I think so.

F: If you know, why don't you tell why it is ?

D: Well...I personally resent it. Resent black girls dating white guys,

because I don't feel that uh...that a white guy can really be sincere

I a black girl. Uh, maybe he can. It's maybe just a prejudice that I

have. I feel that our blacks...our black women...have been exploited so

much in the past, and it just brings it back to me when I see a white guy

with a black girl. I just...

F: Do you see it very often ?

D: Not very often...here and there.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: What about the reverse ?

D: Uh...black guys dating white girls ? Well, my resentment there isn't as

strong as it was in the other direction. But I...I don't feel that...I

feelif you're going to be black...then you have to...you have to give

our black women priority. It seems to me...that if you're a black guy

wanting to be black, you know, everyone-wnts to be super black now,

these days. Blacks do anyway. And if you're going to be black, you

can't..you can't...you can't play one role, then all of a sudden jump

over and start playing another role, you know, it seems to me that you're

saying that, "Well, I want to be black, but the black girls are ugly.
A
I can get more prestige...and it's more for me if I date a white girl.

Who is supposed to be, you know, uh...all the qualities for being pretty

and acceptable...this sort of thing."

F: Yeah...some black girls told me that when they first came here this

fall, more and more black students here are young, because they keep

letting more and more black students come...but black guys told them that

uh...if they went out with, you know, white guys...that they were going to

be in trouble...in no uncertain terms. And the girls thought it was a
iN-
reasonable kind of thing, and Aternalized it and believed it. So they're

here about two quarters, and they realized that quite a few black guys

...especially the ones that were most vehement about telling them...were

the very ones that were dating white girls. And they resent it for two

reasons: First they resent it because of the case, I mean they resent it

because of the idea that the black guys think that they're stupid enough

to believe the kind of things that, you know, were told them...






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: I...I...I'm uh...really...so far as inter-racial dating and that sort of

thing...I'm really not for it.

F: Um huh.

D: Maybe 200 years from now or three hundred years from now...fine. I mean,

if you...if...when people are people, but right now, people aren't people.

You've got blacks ans you've got whites.

F: Why do you feel that way ?

D: Well, I mean, it's just the nature of the system. It's the way things are.

I mean...it's a known fact...I can't do what you can do. Uh...I'm black,

and you're white.

F: What about certain black guys...and I won't preface it, I'll just tell you

what's been said, and you can interpret it. Certain black guys say that

the reason they date white girls...is to exploit them. And that they really

don't dig them...the white chics, you know, they're just doing...this is

what they tell the black girl...that, well, we're just doing this to get

even, and we don't really dig them, we're just, you know, taking them for

a ride, and taking their money, and sex, whatever, you know, but we really

don't dig them. What do you think about that ?

D: What do you mean, so far as it being right, or whether I...

F: Well, first of all, do you think it's true ? First of all, have you

heard something like that...that's been said ?

D: Yeah, I've heard it.

F: Now, do you believe it ?

D: Well...any time, you always have people that fit...who fit one particular

...in one particular category, and people who don't. Uh...for some cases

I think it's probably true, and then other cases when people get...give

you a statement like that it's probably all lies.
16






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: Um huh.

D: Because uh...I personally know one guy...who's dated your white girls

for the past two years...since I've been here in fact. And he's...that's

all he's dated.

F: Um huh.

D: And he tells you...he tells you all he's concerned with is taking advantage

of the white girls...white girls. And uh...I mean, I personally can't see

his wanting to take advantage of a white girl for three whole years, you

know.

F: Yeah...he didn't seem to think about himself too much.

D: He, you know, really had some other motives...I don't care what he says,

but uh...deep down in he's got some other motive.

F: Um huh. Yeah, as a matter of fact, it really does seem very apparent

that uh...some of the...that's a premise, bad term...the most *rep

black guys are some of the ones who are most guilty, that's the term, of

this kind of beha~ybr. And that's something the black girls are...resent

like Hell. They're telling us...Saturday night to be the super-militant,

and Sunday they see them walking the campus, you know, with their arm around

a white girl. And not only that, but completely ignoring the black girl.

D: Yeah, that's true. In my book, you can't...like I said, if you're going to

play two roles, and you can't be black...you can't profess to be super

black...

F: Um huh.

D: I mean, there's nothing says you can't help blacks by dating a white

girl, you know, but so far as trying to give people one impression when

you're exactly an opposite...is really in my book out. I don't agree with

it at all. If you're going to be super black, be super black, but you can't

play two roles, I don't believe. 17






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: What kind of things would you do to improve the social situation on

this campus ?

D: On-campus ? Well uh...more black students. Like I said, when I first

came here there were very few black students, and very little social life.

But now...you get more blacks in, the blacks start to mingle with blacks,

and it just improves the social life all around. That's number one. Uh,

get more black students. If you get more black students, then they're

going to make their own social life. I don't know if uh...so far as white

fraternities and that sort of thing...I don't know if you have to open

those up. They're supposedly open now, but I don't think they are really.

I don't even think you have to open those up for black. I don't know if,

I don't know...I don't really know if fraternities are relevant right now.

Because uh...any time you got people in a group like that, you've got a lot

of potential...

F: Um huh.

D: But...they don't use the potential. They use it just...just for social...

social events, not...not to help people. And that's true too for black

fraternities and black sororities. I don't if...I'm not...I don't think

black sororities and black fraternities are relevant right now. I was in

a, well I still am, in a black social fraternity, and uh...ideals of the

thing need changing. You know, it's strict---anyttime you 've got that

many blacks together, you can do a lot for black people...

F: Um huh.

D: But, the uh...black fraternities, and sororities, basically don't realize

that fact. They're concerned with one thing only...that's partying, get

recognized as the...as a standout organization on campus...and student

government, and that sort of thing, but they're not concerned about blacks.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN







D: The poor, or underprivileged blacks on campus, or blacks in the community.

That's...I don't think that's...it goes at this time.

F: Um huh. Are you a member of BSU ?

D: Yeah.

F: Are you active ?

D: Well yeah...I'm as active as anybody else is I guess. I go to meetings,

and uh...I go to meetings...

F: Oh, do you go to most of the meetings ?

D: Yeah. Yeah. And uh...any uh...protest, or anything that...I think are

relevant and going to aid the black cause...then I participate.

F: Um huh.

D: I think most of them do right now. And I...

F: Most...what ?
,Wc(
D: Most uh...most uh...movements and protests, this sort of thing, sponsored
A
or uh...recognized by the BSU.

F: Um huh. About how many students attend the meetings ?

D: Uh...you want an average ?

F: Yeah.

D: Well, I'd say uh...25 or thirty.

F: Out of how many members ?

D: We must have uh...now when you say members, uh...uh...it's usually

recognized that there's been a fee...to uh...recognition as being a member,

but it's not mandatory or anything like that. Uh...just by being black,

and attending meetings, means...automatically means your a member.

F: Um huh.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: By uh...student of U. F. means you're a member. Uh, if you use that as a

criteria...I guess...uh...65 or 70.

F: So even at the outside...it's about half...

D: Yeah.

F: Of the black students...

D: About half...about half of them attend meetings.

F: Well, why...half of half actually...in other words...like about a quarter

of the black students on this campus attend meetings. If you say, in other

words, if you say membership is 75, and there are about 150 blacks, and

about half of those go to the meetings. Why do you think there's so

little attendance ?

D: I don't know. Uh...well...some are reasons I guess. First of all, if

you uh...if one person goes to the meeting, and he sees another black,

and he tells you what went on. Now it's...and if uh...there's any...any

pressing business...

F: Um huh.

D: Anything that's going to be discussed...then uh...that's good enough...just

telling you what went on, so that he can keep up with it.' And too...uh...

you've got different people attending different nights. You might have

Attending this week (ttt didn't attend last week, and that sort of thing.

F: Um huh.

D: And then...uh...the meetings are usually held during...during the week,

and some people have classes, and other things they have to do...a variety

of reasons.

F: Were you involved umh...what was it, about two weeks ago...that play ?

You know anything about that ?






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: The play ? Oh yeah, I've heard&i,

F: What about it ?

D: Uh...where was it ?

F: Norman.

D: Norman hall. Well, uh...I don't...I don't know...really...what happened.

Uh...

F: Were you there ?

D: No, I wasn't there. I heard about it though.

F: What did you hear ?

D: I heard that uh...was it the School of Education...was giving a play on

uh...is to uh...trying to justify, or...the white attitude toward lacks.

Maybe not really justify, but uh...display the white attitude towards blacks...

F: Um huh.

D: And uh...it was supposed to have been uh...repulsive to blacks, or degrading
1 f-
to blacks, and uh...that %bt was made known to uh...members of the BSU,

who were meeting that night, and uh...they walked on stage.jUN

F: Um huh.

D: Stopped the play.

F: Did you think that was right ?

D: Well...I didn't see the play. I don't know what the play was about

Uhh... if it was degrading to blacks...oad I would think it was right.

F: Were there blacks in the play ?

D: I think so, yeah.

F: Well, were there rights infringed upon ?

D: Well, yeah, I guess...if whites...you got whites putting on a play, and you

got blacks in it. Those are people right ? If you infringe on those whites

21






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: ...rights, they want to put on the play, and you tell them they can't

put on a play, and they have a right to put on a play...then you're

infringing upon there rights. The same goes for the blacks that were in

the play. When you talk about rights...

F: Um huh.

D: I mean, you have to consider the blacks too.

F: Um huh.

D: You just can't say, "Well, you have a right to put on a play, so we're

going to let you."

F: Well what...excuse me...what if the Black Student Union put on a play. The

whites didn't like it, and there's sure as Hell enough whites on this campus

that might not, and by force of number could easily stop any black play...

would that be right ?

D: Well, you have to realize one thing...one thing that explains the actions

there, the actions in both cases, is that blacks are down right now, and

we're trying to get up where you are...

F: Um huh.

D: ...you see, and things that we are...we do aren't going to hurt you,

because you're on the top all ready. They're not going to hurt you as

much as it would hurt us, and that's our basic...that's the blacks basic

premise right now. You...you've got to give a little bit. You've been

on top all these years, and you've got to make some amends, you know.

You...you...there's no way that we're going to get where you are...you

know...be an equal race here in the U.S....unless you give some.

F: Um huh.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: You see...there's no way that we can do what you do, and you do what

we do on an equal footing.

F: Then you would never get out.

D: We've got to be more equal than you right now. You've got to give us

more than you get...

F: Right,

D: ...if we're going to move up.

F: Who would you say are the black leaders on campus ?

D: I have to consider those who are most outspoken as black leaders. Uh...

they seem to express uh...most of them, the opinions of the majority of

the blacks on campus. Uh..*I guess Larry Jordan, Mitch Dasher, would be

the two most...

F: Anybody else ?

D: Maybe uh...no, I think that's about it.

F: There's something I just want to ask you, and I can't remember what the

Hell it was...

D: Moderate blacks and radical blacks want basically the same thing...they

want to be free, they want to be equal, they want what you have...

basically the same things. The only way they differ...in the means for

attaining that end.

F: Um huh.

D: That's the only difference. Now my...my means might be just as good as

yours...who knows. There's no way of telling...only 200 years from now

you can tell maybe, but right now, you can't, So, who's to say you're

right and I'm wrong ? Just because you're militant dt supposed to be

super black, doesn't mean that I'm not black...I don't want to be equal

too...I want to be subjugated all my life. That doesn't mean...
23






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: Um huh.

D: So, I think it's really uh...uh...I mean, anybody who tells you that,

__B________ LI think.

F: Hnm...

D: So uh...

F: Do they accept what you say ?

D: No...not really, but that doesn't really matter.

F: Hmmm...

D: Because I feel tite-wy I feel...

F: I was just wondering...because I think you're right, but everybody at one

time has been accused of that, you know.

D: Well, even the guys you call 'Toms', you know, deep down in they won't

wait...they want what the next guy wants, and uh...they might be a little

more uh...in other words, economic-minded...

F: Um huh.

D: ...than some of the more militant blacks, but uh,..they basically want

the same thing. I don't think you can ask one of the guys who's considered

an 'Uncle Tom', who's a.....well, they're...they're...if he were given a

choice to uh...continue in his present state, or uh...do some little act

that would elevate the blacks from uh...their subjugation...

F: Um huh.

D: I think he would do it...because he wants what you want. And right now,

he's just playing that role because...I don't know why...but he's playing

it anyway. Now, ~t -A. want what you've got.

All blacks do, because of...well, they do, and they're getting it.

F: What does your family do ?






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





D: What does my family do ? Well uh...my father's disabled, he used to uh...

four or five years ago...he ran a junk yard, scrap cars, and sell parts of

them, and that sort of thing. He uh...he had an operation...it was a brain

tumor...he had an operation a while back, and he can't work right now. So...

F: What does your mama do ?

D: Nothing.

F: Just a housewife ?

D: Yeah.

F: Have you always been from Florida ?

D: Yeah.

F: What's the town again ?

D: Noma.

F: I so...I've never...you know, some ti4gs you've heard of it...don't know

much about it, but I swear, I've never heard of that place.

D: Yeah, have you ever heard of B1itbw Florida ?

F: Uh...

D: No idea where it is ?

F: I'm whipped man.

D: Yeah.

F: Yeah.

D: It's up in that area. It's about 25 miles from Mariana.

F: Um huh.

D: I went to school in B -e, because Noma is nothing more than a little

community.

F: I see.

D: They don't even have a school there. I went to school in fBmte 4Mbls

about 14 miles away.






SUBJECT: DAVID JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: Um huh. Have your parents always been from around there ?

D: Yeah...all pa lives.








END OF INTERVIEW




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