|
i INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
F: With Wesley Avery. Wesley is married, and is presently a student at the
University of Florida.
F: O.K. now...so...uh, what was the last job you had ?
W: Teaching.
F: Where ?
W: At William Lanes, in Jacksonville.
F: Are you from Jacksonville ?
W: No...Birmingham Alabama.
F: How long were you in Jacksonville ?
W: Ten years.
F: I'm from Jacksonville too...originally. How did you wind up in Jacksonville ?
W: That's another long story in a way. Well...well, I met my wife in college...
F: Um huh.
W: And when we got married, I didn't want to live in Birmingham...and Jacksonville,
e MFeaa atstr...i eI felt, so I moved there.
F: I see. Where were you a policeman ?
W: In Jacksonville.
F: You were ?
W: Um huh.
F: You were a policeman first...before you were a teacher ?
W: Yeah...um huh.
F: I see. After you had graduated from college.
W: No, see I worked in a mental hospital first...in recreational therapy...
F: Um huh.
W: Then after working there a few years, I left there, and became a policeman
in Jacksonville.
6SUBkJEUT: WESLEY AVERY BLACK 15A
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
F: With Wesley Avery. Wesley is married, and is presently a student at the
University of Florida.
F: O.K. now...so...uh, what was the last job you had ?
W: Teaching.
F: Where ?
W: At William Lanes, in Jacksonville.
F: Are you from Jacksonville ?
W: No... Birmingham Alabama.
F: How long were you in Jacksonville ?
W: Ten years.
F: I'm from Jacksonville too...originally. How did you wind up in Jacksonville ?
W: That's another long story in a way. Well...well, I met my wife in college...
F: Um huh.
W: And when we got married, I didn't want to live in Birmingham...and Jacksonville,
St .r.I felt, so I moved there.
F: I see. Where were you a policeman ?
W: In Jacksonville.
F: You were ?
W: Um huh.
F: You were a policeman first...before you were a teacher ?
W: Yeah...um huh.
F: I see. After you had graduated from college.
W: No, see I worked in a mental hospital first...in recreational therapy...
F: Um huh.
W. Then after working there a few years, I left there, and became a policeman
in Jacksonville.
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
F: But you already had your four year degree ?
W: Oh yeah...um huh.
F: That's what I wanted to know. I see. How was that ? Did you start...like
a patrolman with a college degree ?
W: Yeah...that's right. If you know anything about Jacksonville man, I don't
care what you had, you know, getting on the police force, you started down
at the bottom...
F: Um huh.
W: As a patrolman, and if you stayed there long enough, you moved up.
F: Is that if you're black, oris that if you're white or black ?
W: Either...it doesn't matter.
F: Education means nothing to them ?
W: No, no it appeared that it didn't...that's one reason I left. You know,
you get into a situation where...if you're a thinking individual, and
you're more or less told all the time what to do, you know, you can't hardly
take that very long.
F: How long were you a police officer ?
W: Two years.
F: Didn't seem like ou took very long.
W: Un uh...I didn't enjoy it. This is why I left.
F: Um huh.
W: You know, I have to do...you know, when you have to make decisions, and then
you always have somebody breathing over you, saying, "Well you shouldn't have
done that, you shouldhl have done it this way," or...eventually they wind
up telling you everything to do, and then they tell you, you have to make
your own decisions...so I just couldn't cut it. I just didn't want...
SUBJECT: Fi tAN W&t&&&fg
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
-7 /a c/&^
F: When you graduated from atP-td what was your original purpose ?
What were you going to do ?
W: Enter medical school. I was going to medical school.
F: I see. What happened with that ?
W: Well, my parents didn't have the money for me to go...
F: Um huh0'
W: And uh...the next thing that happened...my father go sick shortly after I
finished, and then I had to work, aNd help take care of the family...so
that just put medical school out of the question.
F: I see. Were you a good student at ~ftE aid ?
W: I say about average.
F: What did you think when you got the questionnaire ?
W: Well, let me see...how did I really feel about it ? My initial reaction
to that questionnaire, was I wondered if anybody was really trying to do
something about, you know, what...the situation here, at the university.
I decided maybe they were, and I would try andhelp them. And another
fd.
reaction I had, well, I'm in hvaa, research, you see, and I know the problem
of getting people to answer questionnaires, and getting them back to you.
And so, you know, this kind of made me want to go on and do it so I could help
you with whatever research you were doing.
F: Um huh. Yeah, that definitely has been a problems
W: Um huh.
F: What department are you in ?
W: Well, I'm in CNIo
F: Um huh.
W: But...I have a Fellowship that's uh, in Ed. research.
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
F: I see. Is that in the foundations department ?
W: Yeah.
F: Yeah, that's the department where I got my degree...with Hal Owens.
W: Oh yeah.
F: Have you met Hal Owens ?
W: Yeah.
F: What did you think about the questionnaire ?
W: Well, you mean...how did I...uh...let me see, how can I answer that...uh...
I'm trying to think of what to...I thought that some...some issues...I don't
know whether...I'm interpreting my feelings right. That you might of been
forcing the issue, or forcing me to make a choice in some areas, and uh, I
...a choice I was sometimes reluctant to make.
F: You mean because the finite number of answers jt to a particular question...
W: Yeah.
F: In other words, you had to put down an answer which you didn't feel any of
the answers were really the answer that you would have given,
W: Yeah, um huh.
F: All right, now that's one of the reasons that I'm conducting interviews.
W: Um huh.
F: To give students a chance to be able to talk about the kinds of things...
and in a manner...which because of the nature of a questionnaire they can't
do. Do you remember anything in particular, that, you know, you would like
to have expounded upon ?
W: Well one area I would have liked to say more on was that area of uh, you
know, of...well, I think you listed some...you had a chance to list some
reasons why people you know didn't come here...
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
F: Um huh.
W: And uh...well, I put three sentences on there, and they pretty much said
what I wanted to say, but, you know, I could have...
F: Well, why don't you do that now.
W: I don't know if I'm going to have that much time this afternoon or not.
F: Do...are you pressed for time ?
W: Yeah, I am...I have to go.
F: What time do you have to go ?
W: I have about 6:15...I, it's...
F: Well..well...
W: If that's not putting you too close.
F: Well, I mean, I was kind of hoping that it would be closer to about 45
minutes or an hour, but we'll do what we can...o.k. ?
W: Well, I'll tell you what I can do, if you...if it's o.k. with you. On
Friday I have a whole day...
F: Um huh.
W: And I can come in anytime then, and could talk to you at length, and...
F: O.k., well then let's talk some, and I'll save the tape, and we can begin
Friday.
W: O.k.
F: Why don't we talk about that then...about why, you know, why students
don't come here...at least people you know.
A
W: O.k., if I go back to...uh...last year. When I was talking with some of the
teachers about coming down here, they still had a lot of misconceptions
about what, you know, really goes on at this school...
F: Um huh.
bUiSJtUTW: IV1 I HVI I
( INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
W: They still believe...some of them do...they still believe, you know,
still a part of that...kind of segregationist attitude. They don't
want you...don't want us here, so therefore, in the classes and so forth,
you know, there would possibly be some prejudice in grading, and so rather
than come and fight an issue like that, they would rather go somewhere
else. Where they believe they are wanted, and uh, they would be given
an equal chance. And I had one other idea on...thought on it...can't...
F: Are these mainly teachers at Raines, that you came in contact with, that
were thinking of going back to graduate school ?
W: Well, some of them were teachers at Raines, and some of them are my
friends, you know.
F: Um huh.
W: And...well, I'm an individual like this...I saw a chance for me to get
ahead by coming here, you know, due to the fellowship that I got, and I
was trying to encourage more individuals, that were in the school, because
of the, you know, this...uh...decission, this turn over they had in
Jacksonville...
F: Um huh.
W: ...by the courts. I was trying to get them to come back to school, you
know, to get a little bit better prepared...at least to get a Master's
Degree, but, you know, each person I approached had some nagging feeling
about how they would be received at the school.
F: Why did you want them to come here ?
W: Well, the main reason...was that, I know that...most of the people who I
knew...if they went to school, they would need some help. And this university,
after I got involved in it, a lot of the professors I came in contact with,
SUBJECT: WESLEYVJERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
W: ...were constantly asking me, did I know of anyone else...any other black
person that would want to go7 Because they had some Fellowship money,
and they could go. And I listened to that, and I thought about the chance,
that you know, some of them would never have, was now existing, and so they
could possibly come on down here while they did have the money, and take
advantage of it, and they would have...could get their Master's Degrees?
and they would have a little bit more security. And I was hoping they
could see it as that, and take advantage of it, and come on down.
F: Um huh.
W: And so this is why I approached them in the beginning.
F: Do you remember wha---when you were in Jacksonville...there's this feeling,
sort of an abstract kind of general feeling, about the university, do you
remember hearing any particular events, to, you know, describe what would
make people apprehensive about coming ?
W: Well, you...it's nothing you could put your finger on...if you just think
about...say...ten years ago...this struggle that some of us were having...
some of the people living in Jacksonville, or anywhere...black people in
Jacksonville, or anywhere in Florida were having just getting in here
...period. And uh...no one has made any particular effort to uh...to -lie
people there in Jacksonville...say...to show them that the university's
policy is not like it was. They know that uh, some few blacks have come
here...and well, some of them were successful. And then they know of
in--- uh, I know of one individual, I think that came down here, a black
girl, and eventually she left, and no one knows exactly why she did leave.
Well, that was just one instance of it, but they mayfp know of other times,
when other blacks came here...
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
F: Um huh.
W: And...
F: That...I'm sorry go ahead.
W: No...and, and, you know, some of the things happened to them and so it's
sort of like, uh...you know, once a myth...rumor gets started, you don't
know where the origin is, but a lot of the people react to that particular
thing.
F: Um huh. About how many people came from Jacksonville the same time you
did ?
W: Well, three...you have three girls that are enrolled in the uh...under-
college, whatever they call it here. And myself...well, my wife was here
the year before, and she's teaching here in the city...in uh...
F: She's teaching where ?
Wt Here, in the city.
F: Oh, I see...in the public schools.
W: Um huh. Yeah.
F: Oh, I see.
W: And that's all I know of that came here from Jacksonville.
F: Did you know Roy Mitchell in Jacksonville ?
W: No, I don't know him...I didn't...I really didn't. He was there, but I...
F: Where did he teach ?
W: I think he was over at Butler.
F: Um huh.
W: And that's in another section of town, and I just never ran across him.
F: Right. What was he, a count lor ?
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
W: I think so.
F: What is your field ?
W: Uh...Biology.
F: Oh yeah, because you were going to Medical School.
W: Um huh.
F: I think there W a lot of Biology teachers...
W: Oh yeah.
F: ...going to Medical School at one time.
W: Um huh.
F: Since you've got here...do you think the feeling, or the myth, or whatever
it is...is justified...that exists, let's say in Jacksonville...which
probably exists most elsewhere.
W: Yeah. Well...I don't know, I think one thing that the...uh...president
could do...should do awa---if he would make a stand, or take a particular
...a stand, uh, in the direction, you know, that the school is...you know,
willing, and ready, and is accepting, you know Negros. And uh...if he did
this, if he took a stand, I believe more people would be willing to come
here. But...any time, I don't know, you may not look at the situation
...in the same way I look at it, but any time a person...or a leader, you
know, makes no particular stand...I tend to look at it kind of suspiciously.
You know, I just don't know what he's for, but if he makes a stand one way,
or the other, I know what I have to do.
F: Um huh.
W: You know, to get along with him. And...so far, I haven't heard of any stand
that he took, you know, except a lot of words. And I haven't seen anything
meaningful...that he's really done.
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
W: And then another thing that I think too...that I know we discussed this a
lot in...with uh...a lot of faculty members. One statement that Ray
Graves made...about he will not recruit---cruitingMany blacks, say for
Atheletics here, and uh, you know, he was saying they couldn't stand up under
the academic pressure. And uh, connected with that...I've also heard about
the university talking about grades. You know, they're saying that the uh
black students don't...ar et academically ready for going here, and they
continue to mention grades. When to a large extent it's not grades that
they are basing their decision on. It's their performance on their
Twelfth-Grade Test, say in the case of undergraduates, and on graduates it's
their performance on the GRE...to a large extent. Almost any kind,of, you
know, record you have...wouldn't do you any good, as far as getting, you
know, gaining admission here, unless you did well on either one of those
tests. And if...if they would say...well every---well, allof...I can't
say all...most of us feel that, you know, we...most of us know that the
GRE is the thing, say for graduate school, or that Twelfth Grade Test
is the thing fo Undergraduate School. But ...the university continues to
say grades...if they were relying soley on grades, then this population
of this university...as far as black students were concerned...would have
quite a few more black students here...I believe.
F: Yeah...I think lhat I have heard...there is...if you talk about academic
ability as students...and I think that they...sort of lump them together,
but I think you're a 100% right...that it is the Senior Placement Test,
that keeps people out of here.
W: Yeso
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
F: But why...why do they have the Senior Placement Test, as you see it ?
W: Well, I haven't the faintest idea...really. I really never even thought
about it...why have it period ?
F: Well, I think...that if you were to talk to the powers that be, they would
say something like...it's difficult to judge, you know, the quality of
high schools...
W: Um huh.
F: In other words, some high schools are alot better than others. So, a 'B'
at one high school is not the same as a 'B' at another high school. So,
they say, to try to have some kind of standard kind of way, of figuring
out, you know, who the better students are. The same would apply to
4-
Graduate School, in other words, a 3.0 4erage at the University of Florida
is not a 3.0 average at Harvard.
W: Um huh.
F: And if your applying to this school, and the best students have a 3.0, or
something, I mean, I think that's the point...to try to get some kind of
standard, you know, to make some kind of common denominator.
W: Um huh. But then if you start looking at tests, per say...instead of
looking at whether they are valid or not, you know...
F: Um huh.
W: Or the reliability of a particular test...uh, that Twelfth Grade Placement
Test...does not really mean, if a student makes a bad score, or a low
score, not a bad score, but a low score...this does not really mean that he
couldn't function well in college...nor does the GRE...nor does a low score
on the GRE mean he can't function well in college.
bwuDiUTT.: WLhJLhjI AVbrxI
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
F: What do you think the test does show ? Let's have that one at a time.
What about the Senior Placement Test ?
W: Umh...about...I mean I'm just...against, using that as a...really...a
criterion for admission.
F: What would you use ?
W: Uh...I just...I don't know what I would use.
F: How would you change admission policies ?
W: One thing I maybe would do, and this is not being fair to most of the
...most students who apply here, you know, keeping in mind that there
are a tremendous amount of students in the state of Florida, white and black,
that would like to go on fo higher education. And I would sort of set up
a probationary period, you know, in admitting students...say, if you did
have students, uh, say showed...as far as grades are concerned...whatever
grades they got in school...they show that by grades they may have had
some promise, and then if you looked at the Twelfth Grade Test eand I
wouldn't want to put a number down as to what score they should make, but
if they showed some promise on the test, I would put them on a probationary
period, and give them a chance to go..o
F: Um huh.
W: ...to school, and then, you know, see how they performed...and then, you
know, admitt"them to full status...once they showed they could perform well
in the school.
F: Similar to the way they do...like 6ED ?
W: Yeah. Yeah. But, I know some schools have, uh, set up programs that they
call Guided Studies Programs, and uh, in this way students who...uh...
you know, not say---who are not the higher ability students... But, the
lower ability students...who a...through some criteria...are judged that
12
bUBJLUT: WtbLbY AVti;x
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN.
W: ...they possibly would have success in college. They give them a chance,
and take them through this particular Guided Studies Program, and then
once they're beyond that, you know, they give them regular status, then they
go on. And this may mean the student to spend five years...instead
of the normal four, but he would get a chance, you know, to see if he
would have some success at going to school.
F: Would you include whites and blacks in this program ?
W: All students.
F: Um huh.
W: This is...
F: Uh...the problem...being, I think blacks make what...20% of the state. I've
heard that figure.
W: Yeah, I've heard it. I don't...
F: I don't know...well, the point is...it's a lot smaller percentage than whites.
And so...allowing, say students, and we would set up some arbitrary number,
Let's say 200 or 250...whatever it happens to be on the Senior Placement
Test. You would have some kind of minimum wouldn't you...you wouldn't
just have anybody ?
W: No. I, I say I wouldn't...to get around putting, you know, any particular
figure there. I didn't...just wouldn't suggest a-kig1r,...but if...
F: But there would be a number wouldn't there ?
W: Yeah.
F: Right, right. So I'm saying, there would be a whole lot more whites...
in that category, than there would be blacks...right ?
W: Yeah.
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
F: Because just because there're so many more whites in this state. And...I
teach American Institutions, and most of our courses have about 40 students,
and you know...
W: Um huh.
F: ...now, and things don't look much better for the future...as far as money
for the university and so forth. Now...an influx of all these, you know,
new students, in addition to those we've been getting upward to 2800 a
year...
W: Um huh.
F: ...Uh, I think there's a problem there, because, you know, we just don't
have the money...so there has to be a choice made...I think.
W: Um huh.
F: Because, you know, in other words, you're saying..."We let all those
students who want to come...with a 250, and a 2.0"..we might have...we now
have 8000 applicants, we might have, you know, 16,000 applicants.
W: Yeah...I mean, that's a problem we run into with how we're still operating
schools in the state...in the name of public education.
F: Um huh.
W: And uh...and I look at this as denying some student a chance to gain, you
know, get a...
F: Well put. Yeah.
W: You know, what he wants.
F: I'm sort of being a Devil's Advocate, to find out, you know, you know,
what you feel about some of these things. What about people that say,
"Well, they can go to junior college." ?
SUBJECT: WEbSLEY A7VERTY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
W: Well, some of them uh...the students that I know, have run into problems
in a junior college, and in that, you know, well, almost any student can,
I don't know what criteria they use for admitting students to a junior
college, but I..,
F: Almost every junior college has a completely open door policy...anybody
that graduates can goo
W: But, then I have heard of...and this...I mean, what I'm saying here...
won't be used in any way...I mean, you know,..
F: You mean as far as...?
W: Yeaho
F: Oh, no...
W: No, what I'm saying is...I have nothing to back up what I'm going to say,
but I'm going to say it anyway.
F: Oh, I see.
W: But, I've heard of some students...say, that went to...I think that's
North Florida, in Jacksonville,whatever...Florida Junior College...
F: Florida Junior College. J.C.
W: ...in Jacksonville. Umh...I've heard them continuously, you know, students
I've talked, continuously come back to me, and tell me about how prejudiced
some of the teachers are there. And they're not only passing this word on,
you know, to me...they're passing it on to other students leaving the
school. So, a lot of students are looking at...uh, a lot of students that
I taught are looking at the junior colleges not a way to go. You know,
they're just...they just don't want to get in the...the students, before
they ever told them that, that the junior college teachers...some of the
junior college teachers.;.,are prejudiced...and they grade with prejudice,
and so they don't want to go there.
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FRE RICK SHENKMAN
W: And so, this may not be the answer, unless the ju...I mean, sending the
students to the junior college...unless that particular policy is changed.
And uh...I believe that some must exist, because, you know, I've had too
many different students come back, and tell me,the same thing. They
haven't named any teachers, but they've told me this particular
situation existed there.
F: And you think that...there's less of a chance for prejudice to come to
the four...at the university, than at a junior college ?
W: I believe...I just believe it is. Yeah, I mean, it has...say take your
class, you have...if you have...in your class, you have forty students,
and you are seeing them on a quarterly basis...
F: Um huh.
W: There's less chance, you can't really get a chance to know all of your
students, you know, on a quarter. By the time you learn half of them,
you know, the quarter is half over, or all the way over.
F: Um huh.
W: And uh...you more or less, if you gave test, you would more or less just
grade tests, and not wonder about the individual that took the test.
And to a large extent, I just don't believe...say at this place...that
some of the professors would have time to en, you know, say engage in
that particular art...prejudice.
F: Well, except for the fact that...uh...most sociologists are aware of the
fact that disability has a whole lot to do with prejudice...
W: Right.
F: And, you'd be right, if the variable we were talking about were, let's
say rural people Some people just don't like rural people and colored
16
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
F: ...people, and the argument would say, well, maybe I better find out who
they really are...and so, you know, it might never come to the fore, because
they wouldn't ever find out. Now I don't think there are too many professors
on this campus that don't know who there black students are...
W: Yeah, well I agree with that. But...well, I think...use myself for an
example...in all the classes I take, I'm the only one in there, and most of
the time, say someone, you know, some of them want to know our names...and
so I don't worry about giving him my name but one time, because I know he'll
remember me. I'm the odd man, you see...
F: Yeah.
W: You know, going back to disability. And uh...well, one...this is going
back to my first...uh...statement...one of my statements. If there were
more of us here...then there'd be less of thatoo.you know.
F: Um huh. It seemed that like you were talking about at the junior college...
the variable was not, you know, large school-small school, it seemed to be
the quarter system as opposed to the semester system, as far as the time
someone got to know the children.
W: Yeaho This is...this is true in that particular case...yeah. But, I only
know one thing we're going to have to do period...in the next...uh...what
we need to be doing right now, is putting pressure on that legislature.
You know, for more monies for schools...period.
F: Um huh.
W: Because...even if they keep the same standards that they have now, they're
either going to have to give more money to public education, or they're
going to have to raise the standards, the existing standards that they have,
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
W: ...now, which will deny even more people the opportunity to go, you know,
on for higher learning. And that may be one of the problems we're going to
have to face, and really get on the legislature to help us out. You...
well, if you look at the classes you teach, you know, forty students,
what can you do...really...with forty students. I mean, how much
interaction can you have ? You can have a lot, but I mean, how many
students, you know, are not really in...in it in your class ? You know,
you just don't have any kind of...hardly any kind of interaction with
forty students. And...I know this is a different level of teaching
than the one in which I taught...35 students...see...in high school.
Well, that was quite a few students, 1i .-e- 'really,
you know, interact with. And...the legislature is just going to have to
do something, because money is going to have to come in from somewhere.
More building is going to have to go on, or the standards are going to
have to be raised.
F: Um huh. I know you've got to go. Let me just ask you one more question,
before you do. At the same time a lot of black teachers went back to
school, this is when the transition was made in Jacksonville (Is that
what you referred to...with white teachers and black teachers switching
schools ?)...
W: Yeah.
F: Did any go to Florida A.&M. ?
W: You mean...
F: Instead of coming here.
W: You mean...to uh...
F: To go back to school.
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
W: Oh. Oh, almost every year they do go...and then, say...some of those who
I was trying to encourage to come on down here...
F: Um huh.
W: You know, and...you know, try...and see what went on. They uh...they, even,
even though there was money here...say, for fellowships, and they had to pay
their way through A.&M., they went on to A.&M.
F: Because the reasons you talked about ?
W: Yeah.
F: Because of the fear of coming here ?
W: Yeah.
F: Have you spoke to any of those people since they've been at A.&M., and
you've been here ?
W: No. No, I haven't really had a chance to talk to them...because I've been
down here most of the time...
F: Um huh.
-7o` dow P
W: You know...well, I moved onii-Jacksonville here.
F: How long are you going to be here ?
W: Now...hopefully...two more years...hopefully.
F: Are you working on a Master's, or a Doctorate ?
W: Well, eventually a Doctorate.
F: Um huh.
W: Once I get straight, but I'm going to get the Master's first. And...
F: Is it going to take you two years to get a Master's ?
W: No. I'll be...I should be through with that this June.
F: Then what are you going to do for the next year ?
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN
W: Well, I'll still be in school here.
F: Working towards a Doctorate ?
W: Yeah...taking all the course work.
F: I see.
W: You know...yeah.
F: How've you been doing in school so far ?
W: Pretty good. I haven't...I haven't pressed down since I've been here, you
know, I've just...I really don't have anything to motivate me here.
F: What do you mean ?
W: I just don't...have anything. I know that. I was comparing this
school with Birmingham Southern, I spent a summer there, and...
F: Is that a predominantly black school ?
W: No, no, no...that's a white
F: I see.
W: It just recently desegregated...and uh...well, there was a lot more
pressure there...on me, as far as, you know, staying with the classes and
so forth...and it's just that...I was motivated there...and I'm not here.
F: Well, do you have any idea what the difference is ?
W: I've been here almost a year, and I can't figure it out yet...just why I
was...basically, I don't even have any...I read what I'm supposed to read,
you know, and uh...other than that I don't even have any desire to, you
know, get any more. I've been trying to stimulate myself...you know, by
telling myself...telling me what I needed to do to prepare myself for when
I left here
F: Um huh.
W: But I still can't generate anything
SUBJECT: WESLEY AVERY
INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHEN1 KAN
How long ago did you go to Birmingham Southern ?
It was in the summer of..let me see...'68 summer.
Oh, so it wasn't that really long ago ?
Un uh.
I see.
END OF INTERVIEW
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