Title: Lee Anderson
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Title: Lee Anderson
Series Title: Lee Anderson
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F: But I use the taperecorder instead of taking notes, because uh, I can

listen better, and it's less distracting, and also, obviously, it's

much more comprehensive when you have a taperecorder.

F: How long have you been here ?

A: Oh, since September.

F: Where did you come from ?

A: Uh, down at Florida A. & I..

F: You were there how long ?

A: Two years.

F: So you're a junior here ?

A: No, I'm on Academic Veteran Program.

F: What is that ?

A: Uh, thi----

F: Could you move closer by any chance ?

A: This is a new program with uh, Agriculture---

F: Oh, right, right, right.

A: And A hl Pc Foundation, with Dean Brookeman.

F: Um huh.

A: Uh, I came up on.

F: So you're a 6-AG ?

A: Right.

F: Well, how've you been doing since you got here ?

A: Oh, pretty good. I can't brag on it, but...

F: You were at A.&M. for four years ?

A: No, I went there for two years. I went to junior college first.

F: Where did you go ?

A: Uh, Gibbs Junior College, St. Petersburg.

F: Right, right.

A: St. Petersburg Junior College now.



F: So, there's a Gibbs High School too isn't there ?

A: Yeah, there's a Gibbs High School .

F: Why did you come to the University of Florida ?

A: Well, really, it was because of the financial assistance here.

F: Go on.

A: And uh, well, when I graduated from A.&M., I really wasn't expecting to

graduate that quarter, August; and I hadn't made any plans, you know, to

do anything, or to run around, and I was planning.on graduating-- I

anticipated to graduate in uh, December.

F: Um huh.

A: And I hadn't had any interviews, I hadn't really, you know, tried to

get a job or anything---

F: How did you graduate ahead of time like that ?

A: Well, I really don't know, but from the uh, from my curriculum I rec-

eived from the department I was in, I needed some more courses.

F: Um huh.

A: And, uh, these courses, well they weren't being4so offered, that quarter.

I was, I was going to have to wait until September before I could take

the courses. So, what happened, was my adviser, and the /ean of my

department he had other courses substituted for those that I ---

F: Oh, I see.

A: So, I took those this summer---

F: Um huh.

A: Insted of waiting for September to take the uh, original courses.

F: Right. You hadn't applied anywhere else then ?

A: Uh, yeah.

F: Where had you thought about going ?

A: Uh, Purdue, Michigan State, Ohio State.




F: Had you applied there ?

A: Yeah, I applied.

F: Had you been accepted ?

A: Well, I was accepted at Purdue for uh, the School of Agriculture, but I really

didn't want to go into the School of Agriculture at the time. I wanted to

go into uh, the School of Veterinary Medicine.

F: Um huh.

A: And so, what happened then, was that, well I filled out my application

wrong really, and I sent it to the School of Agriculture, instid of the

School of Veterinary Medicine.

F: So you got accepted in Agriculture.

A: Yeah.

F: Um huh.

A: And by the time, you know, I really found out what was happening, and I

sent a application for the School of Veterinary Medicine, but it was too

late, and deadlines had passed. Really, everything was too late really.

Because the deadlines for all the Veterinary Medicine Schools had passed,

and the ,sistanceships were gone, and everything, you know, so--- There I was

caught in the midst of what to do,where to go---

F: What kind of student were you at A.&M. ?

A: Oh, average- --- student. I'd say about a 'B'. I graduated with 2.99.

F: Oh that's, that's a good average. The reason I asked, when people say,"Oh,

I'm doing o.k. "
I'm doing o.k. sometimes they don't mean they're doing o.k. at all.

What's satisfactory for certain students is when they're really pretty

good, and what's, people tell me they're doing o.k. and it's not really

very good at all. I've seen this commented about all the time. What

did you think about when you got the questionnaire ?



A: Uh, wha--- nothing really, you know.

F: Had you gotten any before ?

A: Umh--- not since I've been here.

F: Did you fill it out imeadiately, e-wflt-9

A: Yeah, within two or three days .

F: Um huh. When you first got it were you uh, pretty sure that you would

fill it out ?

A: Yeah.

F: Do you know other people that've got it ?

A: Yeah.

F: Did they fill it out ?

A: No.

F: Why is that ?

A: I don't know. A lot of them figured they just didn't want to be bothered,

and you know, they saw the place where,you know, if you would participate,

you know, would you come to the interview, and they said they didn't want

to come to o interview, and then they didn't want to invest the time in

it so they just----

F: What about just filling out the questionnaire though ? Do you think that

they would have filled out the questionnaire if it hadn't been, --- because

you could have done that, people sent it back, just the questionnaire ?

A: Yeah, I guess. They could have done this, but I just guess they just

didn't want do --- either one really.

F: What do you think about that; when people say they don't want to take

the time, when it would take about a half-hour ?

A: Yeah, I guess about a half-hour.

F: What's your response to that, when people say they don't want to be bothered ?

I mean, obviously, you feel some what different, because you filled it out.



F: So why do you think that they....

A: Well I, my, I, my basic feeling is that personally I feel that a lot of

people who are, fill out questionnaires of this sort feel that it's just

a waste of time, because they have seen nothing, you know, come from


F: Um huh.

A: Nothing that was accomplished from them, so they figure, you know, gener-

ally what it is, they're just helping work on their dissertation or thesis,

usually something like that, you know....

F: Well why, why did you fill it out then ?

A: Well, really I don't know, I just felt like I wanted to fill it out, you


F: Um huh.

A: I just felt... I figured that maybe, you know, if anything---could possibly

cme from it then maybe I might have some influence,or I might actually

have some influence on it.

F: Right. Right. Well see, that's how I feel, but I can understand to a

degree why people don't fill it out, but I think it's sort of short-

sighted sometimes, You know, a half-hour of ones life is not that much,

and there-s just the possibility of once in awhile something being done,

is certainly a worthwhile investment. That's the attitude I would like

most students to have taken, the way you did. Unfortunately they haven't.

Do you remember any questions on the questionnaires that uh, because the

nature of the questionnaire is just like, you know, this, this, or this,

that you would have added certain questions, or added certain answers,

that were, you know, were different from those that appeared on the

questionnaire ?



A: Umh---I really---there may have been some, you know, that I didn't answer.

F: Yeah, um huh.

A: For various reasons, but other than that...I didn't add any questions.

F: Yeah. What did you think about the questionnaire in general ? Did you

think that it talked about a lot of important things ?

A: Well, yeah, basically. I thought it talked about a lot of the things,

you know, that were, were sort of pressing at the time, and that it

seemed, you know, that, it was trying, the questionnaire itself was trying

to gain some insight as to how people felt or reacted...

F: Um huh.

A: "-o these issues, and I felt that if, you know, if anythinklwere to really

uh, stem from the questionnaire, that some of these answers may have some

bearing on, you know, the outcome in the future.

F: Um huh.

A: So I think...
F: D you remember anything that you thought was more pressing than those

things that were asked, that you would have liked been able to respond

to ?

A: Umh----no not really. I guess that, well I really didn't spend that much

time on it.

F: Um huh.

A: I just, you know,

F: Um huh.

A: got thr....

F: Lee are you married ?

A: Yeah.



F: I see, and you've been here since September. Do you come into contact

with many black students, or white students ?

A: Mostly --- I've come in contact with --- well you --- I don't know

whether you would call it contact, but I, I, I'm around, uh a lot of,

mostly white students, but...

F: Um huh. Because -----

A: As far as contact---

F: Pardon me ?

A: As far as contact goes, I've been in contact with more blacks than whites,

as far as socializing, or talking, or discussing but as far as being

around, uh, associated with, ie~ uh, mostly associated with the white.

F: Because, well the College of Agriculture maybe ?

A: Yeah, and where I live.

F: Where do you live ?

A: Live in Flavet.

F: Um huh.

A: And there's not many blacks over there. I only know one other than myself.

F: I see. When you socialize, what do you do, for the most part ?

A: Huh, huh. Go home.

F: Well where's that ?

A: Tampa.

F: You don't do much socializing on campus here ?

A: No.

F: How come ?

A: Well really I---can't find anything of interest to do on campus really,

as far as socializing, and things of this nature.



F: Um huh. Do you do anything out in the community here ?
A: Un uh. IW very seldomly in the community. I'm not---- I've been about
twice since I've been here. Well maybe three times, we went to the


F: Um huh.

A: Once or twice, and I went to uh, well a club one night, and that was about

the extent of it.

F: Why is that ? You just, can't find things you'd like to do here ?

A: Well yeah, basically, I guess that's what it is..

F: What ki---

A: I mean the town itself, you know, seems, to me seems to be limited as far

as, you know, social activities, unless you want to, you want to mingle

with, with, people who you don't want to mingle with.

F: Um huh.

A: And uh, well rather than doing things like that, you know, I just stay

home. Or if I want to go somewhere then I go home for the weekend, go

to Miami, or take various trips. Went to see-- anta last weekend, and I

went to Tallahassee uh, a couple times since I've been here to see a few

t-is, and just to see some old friends.

F: Um huh.

A: And uh---

F: How old are you ?

A: Twenty-five.

F: Were you in the service ?

A: No.

F: What did you do--- in the interim ?

A: Pardon ?



F: Well, you know, wha--- did you go straight to college from high school ?

A: Yeah.

F: Have you been at Florida A.&M. College since you graduated from high

school ?

A: No. I had to, well I got married, I got married in '63---

F: Um huh.

A: Uh, well let's see, September---I uh, graduated from junior college in

'64, and well, it was uh, well my married life hasn't really too, too

much effect on my college life at that time, and well I transferred from

there to Tuskegee. I went to Tuskegee in '64, and that's when my college

life really started effecting my --- so my wife, she stayed with my

parents, and uh, we were expecting our first child, and, well things,
you know, finances and things like that seemed to start coming quite

difficult. I started worrying a lot, you know, and so my father, he told

me just couldn't send me to school, and take on the family also, so I

dropped out of school for abiutti--- two or three years, which seemed

like a life time, and uh, I had always intended to go back, but it seemed

that I just never could get enough money to go back, and so --- I didn't

like any of the jobs I had.

F: What kind of things did you do ?

A: Well I---you mean as far as employment ?

F: Um huh.

A: Well I worked as a messenger clerk for uh, let's see what name, company
DOyI& OfdV4e
of Dor---D 'Ove (?). This was originally in, had its main office

in Bartow, but they had a sub-office in Tampa, and I uh, communicated

back and forth between the two, and uh, well I didn't like that, there

were no advancements in that. The salary was bad, and uh, well I worked

for a produce company, driving a truck. The salary was good, but the



A: hours were too long, and...

F: Was that two years of college ?

A: Yeah. It was, well, after three really, after a year at Tuskegee I was

at home, And I uh, I worked for--- Continental Can Company, that was

a, uh, well labor inspecting they say, and that was all right, but it was

sort of a temporary thing. You had to join the union in thirty days. I

made the union and everything, but, well soon afterwords uh, I was laid

off. Although I knew I was going to be rehired, it just, you know, you

worked one week, and you were off the next week, and you worked a day,

and you were off,---hthe next day. And you kept being shifted from uh,

from shift to shift, and they had three shifts,a day, night, and one

sort of in-between. And then uh, well I was, I kept on being laid-off

so much, and I really wasn't making any money, and I needed some money

really. I needed a steady salary, so I quit that one, and I went to work

for State Board of Health, that was Inspector Spregman, and I, I stayed

there until I decided to go back to school, which was about a year.

And well I, I was always wanting to go back to school, but I just

could --~yi id the money, and when I left for school I didn't have any

money, but I was just determined to go back.

F: Um huh.

A: Because I was tired of the jobs I had, and people giving me a run-around,

and saying one thing, and meaning another. I just felt like that type of

life wasn't for me, so I left, I left home to go back to school, I had

about seventy-five dollars in my pocket, and well, I had a little retire-

ment check coming from the State Board of Health. That's what I paid my

first quarter's tuition with, and from then on it was scholarships and loans.



F: Does your wife work ?

A: No, she's in school.

F: Here ?

A: ( Must have given an affirmative nod. )

F: Now that you got away from that kind of life, how's it being back at

school ? As a black person ?

A: Being back at school ?

F: Yeah.

A: Uh...

F: Well you seem to dislike, you know, working at those kinds of jobs, and

--- Do you think it was because of the kinds of jobs, or do you think

you were treated differently because you were a black person in those

kind of jobs ?

A: Well, basically it was, I don't know, I'd say it was a little bit of

both really. Well I have, you know, I have applied for jobs which people,

you know, just told me, you know, that I wouldn't like the job, you know,

because of my education, and because I still wanted to go to school, that,

you know,the just wouldn't be fun to me, and I wouldn't be satisfied. At

which I thought that some of this would help, but at times you need a job,

you know, you don't want to hear it, and so, and then, and on the jobs

that, you know, I've ha--- I have had, I feel that most of them, except

for maybe the State Board of Health, that most of the others, I was

treated the way I was because I was black.

F: How's it being here, and being black ?

A: What do you mean specifically ?

F: Well, did you have any apprehension about coming to the University of

Florida ?



A: Um huh, a great deal. People told me it was a racial city, and that,

you know, they had been here before, and that things were going to be

a whole lot different, and that I would be discriminated against, and you

know all this type thing, and so, and then, you know, the idea of coming

to school with 20,000 whites, and about 100 or 50 blacks, I meannaou

know, and then again, you know...

F: Move a little closer, I'm afraid we're not picking this up.

A: JfC/ That again in itself made me sort of apprehensive.

F: Um huh.

A: And I still feel, you know...

F: Have your apprehensions been justified ?

A: Well, I don't know. To be, to be honest, uh, I was in uh, as far as, as

far as being a student, and going to class, I would say maybe no, but as

far as social life, and things of this nature, I would have to say yeah.

F: Well--- go ahead, distinguish between those.

A: Well, I, I don't feel that, if I could, I don't feel that people want me,

want me to, you know, engaged in their social activities is what I mean,

and well, for where I stay for example, I mean, uh, some of the neighbors

they speak sometimes, and other times they don't speak, and then some,

those who speak most of the, you know, frequently--- when they get with

certain individuals they don't speak. And uh, well, I mean th--- to me

this, I mean, being black, I'm going, I observe these things, because

that's the first thing I think of, you know, I'm going to be discriminated

against. They don't want me with them--- but I look at it this way; I'm

not here to socialize with them, all I'm here, you know, get an education,

get a piece of paper, and get the hell away, and that's my major objective.



F: Work on a masters degree ?

A: Looking forward to it.

F: Pardon me ?

A: Looking forward to it.

F: Oh yeah, because you're just a post bachelor's student, a 6 ...

A: Yeah, right.

F: What's your field now ?

A: Uh, Physiology, Animal Science.

F: I see. Are you going to stop at the master's ?

A: I don't know, that's wrong question, I, I ka vague hopes of

going to uh, uh, veterinary Idicino school, and getting a degree uh, also,

but uh, I don't know, I'm getting to the point where either I have to, to

stop here and go to, to go on working on a DVM, or get the master's, and

call it quits for awhile, at least to, you know, to at least I can do

something here, where, and you know, see just where I'm going, and see

what's really best.

F: Um huh.

A: 'Cause finances, you know, are getting to be a burden, and I have two

children now, and I have to try to make some type of preparation for them,

and my daughter, she's the oldest child, she'll be starting school in

September. So, I don't know, I'm just trying to make a final decision

now just what to do.

F: What about classes, academically, do you think being a black person has

effected you in class ?

A: Umh, no, not really. I fell that I've, I've done just about the same here

as I've done anywhere else. Got about the same grades.

F: Um huh. People you think, do you get any feeling of difference, let's



F: say, compared to being in the class here, as, as opposed to being at

Florida A.&M. ?. Supposec the way professors act to you, the way

students act to you ?

A: Any different ?

F: Um huh.

A: Yeah, I mean, there's a great deal of difference.

F: Like what ?

A: I don't participate in class.

F: Here ?

A: HKe.-o, y

F: Why is that ?

A: I just don't feel--- really I just don't feel like I want to participate.
J. .'!." ra,
F: Were you the, you know,1' all different kinds of students, were you the

kind of student at A.&M., who participated quite a bit ?

A: Yeah.

F: Um huh. And here you don't ? Have you ever thought about that ? Why ?

A: I don't---no I--- well yeah, to an extent. It seems, I don't know, the

first quarter I was here, when I, I, I mean, when I struggled t-ie is,

uh, there was a lot of things that would puzzle me, and I would like, I

would want to ask questions, but it seems as, you know, every time I,

I started to ask a question, I get tense, and I get nervous, and I can

feel a change inside me.

F: Um huh.

A: I feel like my metabolic rate, you know, started increasing, and it just

would have a lot of effect, you know, which I could feel, really, inside,

and so I just conditioned myself, you know, not asking any questions or

anything that came up that I, I wasn't sure of or I had a question about.

I would go to the book and try to find the answer.




F: Did you ever think about why, you know, to really introspect, and wonder

why you felt that way ?

A: I don't, I don't know, maybe, maybe because I might of been, I might

have felt embarrassed about a question that I asked, or something of that

nature. Here, or something similar to that. Really I never thought

about why, or I don't know, I got nervous, ind tense, and so I didn't

ask questions. Every now and then now I do, you know. You see it

would depend on the class really. Maybe that's it, you know, I mean, in

some classes I don't feel as tense as I do in other classes, and maybe

it's the instructor, or maybe it's the students, or something like that,

you know. But in a class with, with, e a -ASh a class with

more blacks beside me, then I'm not as tense, and I feel like, you

know, I can participate somewhat. Maybe not as much as I would if I

was in, at A.&M. or something like that. But I do feel that I, I feel

more like participating in, you know, there are more blacks in class

than I do when I'm the only black.

F: Can you remember any specific incidents that affected you, let's say,

in a class room, either by students, or i professors that you thought

were a result of your being black ?

A: No, not really. No specific incidences.

F: Have professors ever treated you differently because you're black do

you think ?


F: Excuse me, that's our bell.

A: Well individually, personally, I would say no, not me, really; but I have

heard of uh, incidences which, with these individuals thought they were,

you know, treated bad----



F: Can you remember any, off-hand ?

A: Well, %y this is hardA peculiar situation. But, there was one guy who

was telling me that uh, he was in this class, and, and I think the, uh,

instructor wrote the curve, you know, this was final grade, and uh, well

his average was a sixty-two, and there were, there was a white girl, and

white boy, whose averages were in the sixties also, but the white girl

average f sixty-three, and the instructor cut the curve at sixty-three,

and he said from sixty-three to something was a 'C', and anything below

sixty-three was a 'D', and he felt, you know that the instructor really

cut the curve there because he was black.

F: Um huh.

A: And he had sixty-two, so you know, he go4the 'D', cause he was black, or

you know, really both of them should have got 'Ds', so I mean, you know,

that's not, not really to go on, and the instructor does have the right,

you know, to put his curve where he wants it, but I guess he felt like,

since he had the sixty-two that he was ---

F: Did he say anything to the professor ?

A: I don't know. I really don't.

F: You remember anything else ?

A: Well, there was another incidence where another guy was telling me, he

was in a lab, and the instructor was asking who all had, you know, uh,

gave injections, I think they were giving uh, trying to put a dog to

sleep, givd him Sodium Penethol to talk (?) and uh, you know, the

guy said he asked all the white kids, had they given it to them, you know,

and most of them said they hadn't given uh, given it to some animal, but

one or two hadn't ever given it to a dog, so you know, he ask him also,

but he told him straight he hadn't given it to anyone, any animals at all,

and so he said, so the instructor asked one of the white guys who--- had

given it, but hadn't given it to a dog to administer the injection to uh,



A: so he felt that he was uh, not given the uh, the uh, authority to give

give it to him because, you know, he was black.

F: Um huh.

A: So---, whereas he had never given it before, he thought that, you know,

he should of...

F: He should have been the primary one chosen.

A: Yeah.

F: I see. Have you ever, you know you've mentioned two things from the

part of instructors, what about students ? Students ever reacted a way

to you or to your friends, that's sort of, you thought was a result of

being black ?

A: Well, all the class we been in, a friend I got, and uh, he, he observed

that, I didn't even really observe it, but he mentioned it to me, and it

was uh, well about the first, first day, first two days of class I

believe, uh, it was three girls I believe, tgao eg two or three.

They:were sittingin the, in the row ahead of us, you know, we were

sitting behind them, and well, we were late to the class anyway, and uh,

you know, because we were trying to find our way around, and what not,

and had just gotten here at the time, and, and so the first day they sat

there, and the second day they sat there, but starting from the third

day on, you know, they moved over to the other part of the room, and so,

you know, he felt, he said, he told me thnt he observed that uh, he

related it to me that, told me that, and we both got the opinion that

they didn't want to sit there because we were black they--- So I mean,

that's only, that's as far as students are concerned. Students are

something I don't even worry about, I mean I can't care, I care less

how those students feel about me. As long as he stay where he is, and

we stay where we are.




F: Um huh. Ho--how, you said you were doing pretty well academically here

so far, do you think that you're education so far has equipped you for

doing well here ?

A: Um huh. Definitely.

F: Yeah, you don't feel as though that you're behind, or something like that ?

A: No.

F: That's good. You mentioned that uh, there's not really a whole lot to do

on this campus. Is that because, do you think, basically because you're

a black person, or that there's just not a whole lot to do on this campus ?

A: Well, I would say, basically, it's probably because I'm black. And I

really don't find too many black students doing anything on campus. Well

I, let me see, to sight an example, this was about the most social,

socializing event that. that has taken place on, on campus that I know.

I know, you know, for example, fraternities and sororities, well I mean,

you know, there're not that many black students in fraternities and

sororities here at school. I mean, to me, it seems that then, and I

don't know about things here because I haven't tried to find out too much

about it except for what I read in the paper, and what, you know, people

tell me, but it seems that at A,&M. if uh, you weren't involved with

fraternities, or sororities, you didn't have a clique, your peer group

to, you know, to go and find something to do, well then really you

didn't have anything to do, and you know, most fraternities sponsored

most of the activities, except for the SGA sponsored a few activities.

Well, you, if you belonged to a fraternity or if you--- in any fraternity

where you were given an invitation, you know, to every thing that happened,

for the fraternity or sorrority, well, because all the Greeks invited all

the other Greeks...

F: eV, I see.



A: And uh, so, I mean, if you...

F: Were you in a fraternity ?

A: Yeah. There's a lot of things, you know, going on that way----, but I

don't know, how fraternities are, because I've really never seen too much

about fraternities, nor sorrorities, except for the houses. I haven't

seen any activities they do, be they good or bad; socializing, or academ-

ically, or civically, or any oftLhe other way. I really haven't seen

nothing that they do. Well as far as the SGA, I don---I don't think that

the events that are sponsored here by the SGA are not...

F: Student Government ?

A: Yeah.

F: What does SGA stand for exactly ?

A: Student Government.

F: SGA ? Why, why the 'A' ? That's what I do....

A: Well we, we call it SGA, Student Government Administration...

F: Oh, I see.

A: And uh, well, the people who were uh, in SGA, we had officers and



F: Excuse me. Hello...No, I'm sorry he's not...uh, no I don't... O.K. bye,

bye. The phone never rings, except when I'm talking to somebody.

A: I can understand that.

F: Ha. Ha. Ha. What kind of things, if you had the power to do things on

this campus, that's socially, what kind of events would you have ? To

create more situations where black students would feel comfortable, and

be able to participate in them ?



A: Hum----I don't know. That's a difficult question. You're never going

to satisfy all the people. Well--- I don't know, I would say more things

centered around, like uh, participants, black preformers, like you know,

well--- singers, and uh, dancers, and things of this nature. Though--- I

mean, they have these type things here, at the University of Florida,

they may have some blacks in for--- I don't know. I don't go to any of


F: Would you like to go to them though ?

A: I don't know, no I just never--- take any interest in them. I mean, I

came here with, you know, these things in, you know, that this was a

racial city--- Red Neck Country, and uh, all I want, from this palce, is

a degree, an education, and I couldn't care less about the other activities.

Now maybe, if some big write up, or something with world publicized, you

know, something that I thought was interesting, I probably would go, but,

other than.that, I just as soon take no interest in it. Like there was

some guy here from, oh, he was a black guy, he was from some newspaper,

or something, CBS, or some big news from the---I don't know, he was

coming, he was supposed to tell, he was coming here to relate to the

blacks, one way or the other h ow they should come together, they should

be together, but the man had a white wife, so how is he going to tell me

how to get together with black people. So, I-mean, you know, when I first

saw that 'poon' I didn't even want to see that--- he can't tell me

nothing. I don't even want to hear what he got to say. Because, I feel

he can't tell me how to come together with black people. Maybe he

could tell me how to integrate, or something like that, how to socialize

with white people, but he can't tell me how to come together with black



A: people. For the main reason, he has a white wife. Now there's nothing wrong

with that as far as I see it, but he still--- for his purpose of coming here...

F: Um huh.

A: .Tf'= 1t c-ng-g., for, for his personal life, you know, it's his thing.

F: Uh, then you don't personally resent the fact that he---has dated, or has

married to, the white girl ?

A: No, no I don't resent it.

F: Um huh.

A: But I mean, you know, the issue, you know....

F: That really doesn't make sense. What about your relation with black students

here, are, are, do you feel this coemadQey that most black students feel ?

A: Do I feel what now ?

F: This feeling of closeness because you are black, with the other black students ?

A: Well, I guess, I guess mostly you feel closer to the blacks because you are

black. Excuse me. But uh, really uh, I don't, i'm not associating with them

too much. I see them, !speak to them, and...

F: Do you have anything to do with BSU ?

A: Well I go to some of the meetings every now and then. I think I went to about

three since I've been here. But not kicking anything in. I'm not saying I'm

against anything, I just don't like the way they do things, the way they hold

meetings, and that sort of thing...

F: Right, right.

A: It seems like they're not getting anything accomplished, and their meetings

are just like, you know, just like an outdoor fight or something, you know,

everybody is arguing, and the---the president, or the chairman rea+ly, he comes



A: in, and, saying one thing, and the rest of the body, the assembly, they say

other things, and then, they're just no mutal ground, and no one is working

together, you know, for the benefit of the black students really, unless

something really come up and they think is wrong, and then they come to the

meetings and find out what they're going to do about it, or something like

that. And then, it seems like some people in theuh, organization, they feel

that eone should know, you know, what's going on, on this campus, and other

campus through out the state. The only reason, if something comes up, they

feel that everybody should know. And well, I mean everybody just can't know,

what's happening Af/oughout the state, or on this campus, and other campuses

too, and a lot of people are not even concerned about it. And really what the

--- the few meetings that I went to, they were just, you know, jwt like out-

door fights. They were, you know, just like outdoor fights, everybody jumping

on everybody else, and they'd go on, and on, so they may have had a few good

meetings, but I just--- the three I went to....

F: You've missed them.

A: The three I went to were like that, and so I just felt like it was a waste of

time. I'd go out, I'd spend two hours, or three hours, likening to this person

arguing with that one, this one argue with that one, and then nothing concrete,

never stemmed from the meeting, so you know, I just went to those three, and I

didn't have anything else to do, I mean somebody said come on let's go to

the BSU meeting tonight.

F: Do you think some blacks resent you because you're not active in that ?

A: I don't know, I never really thought about it, but it could be, then I don't

know that many blacks on there, except for, you know, a few...

7: Um huh.



A: The chairman, he's a home boy, he's from Tampa.

F: Mitch Dasher ?

A: Yeah. Well he may*. I had feelings about him one time, maybe he might

resent me. Maybe he think I should do more, but I know I just never interested

me, and I didn't feel like putting the time in it. I guess I came you know,

wanting already to be, you know, the foundation already laid, so to speak,

instead of getting in and building a foundation. Maybe really that's what it

needs. To build a foundation, something to stand on.

F: Um huh.

A: A purpose for its existence, and just not a BSU because you black.

F: Would you feel better if there were more black students here ?

A: Definitely. Definitely.

F: What about more black instructors ?

A: Definitely.

F: Which do you tbiink is more important ?

M est say--- lee y both are very important, but as far as in your priorities ?

A: I don't know, I guess I would say black faculty.

F: Why is that ?

A: Well I think the black students would feel more confident, knowing that there

were some black faculty members here, and to know that if anything really came

up, that they could, turn turn to a black faculty member. I think blacks

basically want to be, uh let's see, how should I say that, have, I know trat-'s

a ve word, but they'd like the authoritative person above them to be black

too. It's kind of, you know, difficult to go in to a white man, and tell the

man how you feel about certain things. You know, because the first thing that

you're going to feel is that he's white, and he really don't care.




F: Um huh.

A: That, you know, if you relate these things to a black man, and you feel that

he's concerned, because he's black. Not saying that the white man is not

concerned, but this is just a feeling that I think most blacks get.

F: Do you think it would make a lot of difference, because your courses that you

take probably are not very philosophical, you know, the kind of area you're in,

that it would make a difference for a black instructor being, let's say

teaching a chemistry course, or teaching a physiology course ?

A: Would it more what now ?

F: Well, in other words, certain black students say that, a black, a white man

teaching, let's say. a course in black lit erature, that you know, a white

professor just doesn't understand some of the things, you know, well, black

history, a white man just can't identify with some of the things. Do you

think it will also be important in something like physics or chemistry for

the professor to be black, where obviously the lack of experience wouldn't

you know, have the same connotation that it would in teaching a course in

philosophy or something.

A: Well personally, I don't think it would be uh, make that much difference

for the black physics, or black literature, or black culture would really

help them. Uh, I think it would really depend on the, the education of the

person, who teacher she course, because he's thoroughly indoctrinated, he

knows what he's talking about. I think he should teach, be he white or black.

F: Um huh.



A: cet~+uh, now if you have a white man talking about black culture, he doesn't

know what he's talking about, well then, I mean, then I could see...

F: Yeah, well certain people say that it's impossible for a white man, no matter

if he has a PHD from Harvard, that's in black studies, you know, to really

know some of those things, so the point being, would you rather have a mediocre

black professor teaching your ysiology course, or an outstanding white

professor ?

A: Well, I would say outstanding persona4Eys black or white.

F: Um huh. But, you feel that a black professor can offer more for the students,

maybe psychologically, and emotionally, but actually when he is teaching the

class someone to turn to and so forth.

A: Yeah, yeah.

F: One of the reasons they say black students don't come here, is because uh, they

can't get in. Have you heard that ?

A: Um huh.

F: Do you think it's true ?

A: No, not really. I know a lot of students, my wife for example, they can get

in, but they still don't want to come.

F: Um huh.

A: Now why...

F: But she does come, she is here now, right ?

A: Well she's here because I'm here.

F: Um huh.

A: But she wanted to transfer from here, and go to a school down the street, a

junior college, Santa Fe.

F: Um huh.

A: And uh, uh, why, I don't know, but she...

F: Did your wife get a questionnaire ?



A: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah she did.

F: Did she fill it out ?

A: I don't think so, I don't know. I was filling mine out---we wer them out both

the same day, when we first got them, we started on them, and I left, and I

up on campus, and I brought mine with me, and I, I had it in my briefcase, I

carried it with me until I mailed it, I, I haven't seen hers since the first

day she got it. I know she started filling it out, but I... // >0/h

F: I'd appreciate it if you would mention it to her, to fill it out. It is

important for me to get as many responses as possible.

A: How many responses have you gotten ?

F: Not really enough. I've gotten less than 1/3, which I think is deplorable.

A: Yeah.

F: Although,we've talked about it; I think I understand it to a degree,

nevertheless I think everybody, for the possibility of some good things

happening, could invest a half-hour, and I would appreciate it if other people

you see, to mention it to them, but it really is important, because I don't

want to uh, o.k. ?

A: And, that's the basic things I've found different here, than at A.&M. The

competition is just not as great. The competition is really great here,

compared with A.&M. I mean A.&M., I felt like, you know, I was all aeD world,

you know, I knew something, you know, but when I come here, I just feel like,

you know, I'm just an average student, or maybe less than that, but then it

makes me compete more---

F: Um huh.

A: Makes me be more, and makes me try to do, you know, as well as the man who's

making all the 'As'. Although, I find it hard some times, I still try. It's

because the competition. You don't want to be the worse there is in the class.



F: So you say, well black students from black schools haven't been used to


A: Right----tQme^I mean, putting forth, yo-yo- your normal capabilities to

try and compete with other students.

F: Um huh.

A: I don't---I don't really know.

F: That's interesting.

A: Because I don--- all the way through---my undergraduate degree, undergraduate

year at A.&M., really well, the only competition I had was with about, there

was about--- ten or twelve students.

F: In your field ?

A: No, in the whole university...

F: In the whole shebang- -

A: And uh, I feel, you know, that well, I'm staying up in my bracket, you know,

with my peer group. AaI--I didn't exert myself, you know, really put

forth, anymore effort, and if I had've exert myself in, in undergraduate

school at A.&M., I believe I could've --- graduated with a 4.0.

F: Um huh.

A: If I'd of put forth all my exertion here, I doubt that very seriously, but I

do think that I could graduate with at least a 3/something average.

F: Let me ask you this. You said you graduated with about a 3.0, about, in

round figures, and you were about, you figured, among the top twelve students

at the school ?

A: Um---yeah.

F: How students are there at A.&M. ? / A
f\ ^ m 000 -y JO
A: It's about, I don't know, it was about thpe-r, maybfrour tfusand, somewhere

in there.



F: Umh.

A: Tne-thbm increase i, there is---

F: So, out of 4000 if you have like a 3.0 average you'd make it in the top 10

people ?

A: Well, you know, I would, I would guess, yeah. Now I would have to go to the


F: Yeah. I know, it's just that...

A: But the reason I say this, I'm going to sa-e another example to you; now at

A.&M. now to be a Greek all you needed was a 2.5 average.

F: To be a Greek ? Um huh.

A: To be a Greek. Of course some organizations had higher averages, but the uh,

standard university requirement was 2.5.

F: Um huh.

A: And you could go around all day, and you couldn't hardly find a student with a

2.5 average. Every now and then, occasionally, you run into a student with a

2.5 average. And students were breaking into the administration office,

trying to change there grades in order to pledge.

F: To what ?

A: In order to pledge.

F: Um huh.

A: An organization, you know, a fraternity or a sorrority. And, I mean, that

shocked me, you know, I couldn't find a--- we had, maybe when we would have

a rush party so to speak, we'd--- about a hundred guys turn out, and I don't

know how many guys you might find, maybe seven, with a 2.5.

F: Um huh.



A: And see the---well that really did shock me atg I was totally shocked.

F: Why do you think people don't have very good averages there ?
a'o 6c^'k
A: Then because of competition. I, I'd have to Ua-~icto competition.

They don't, they're just satisfied with getting by. A 'C' will get you by,

so you get a 'C' you're satisfied.

F: Um huh, I see. I've never heard that before. You said---explain that---

students used to break into the administration offices ?

A: Yeah. I would--- there was students --- expelled from school, put on

probation, because of that.

F: Was it so important to get into the honorr Society ?

A: Well --- it was a little more than that---

F: I mean a Greek fraternity---

A: But, well, people wanted to be associated with, you know, different org---

organizations. They wanted to be a Kappa, or Alpha, or something like that


F: Um huh.

A: And they just went to all extremes, you know, to get in.

F: Uh, wow !

A: You know, it was news to me too.


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