Title: Hank Drane [CRSTA 7]
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Title: Hank Drane CRSTA 7
Series Title: Hank Drane CRSTA 7
Physical Description: Book
Publication Date: 1978
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Bibliographic ID: UF00005748
Volume ID: VID00001
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CRSTA7AB Page 1
Side 1A


D: ...what was known as a roving bureau. I covered areas of the state where we did not

have a full-time bureau. And St. Augustine was one of those areas. I just traveled

all over North Florida, generally speaking, to small counties. And..

C: How long have you been with the paper?

D: I been with the paper 23 years. And, when I first came here, they just asked me if

I would sort of like to do a public relations job. They didn't really think there

was any news in a small county. But our problem was, we had a bureau in Gainesville,

had two people down there; had a bureau in Ocala. We had bureaus in Tallahassee,

we had a bureau in Daytona Beach. All the big cities, but people would write in and

say, "Hey,AI can read about county commission meeting in Ocala, but you don't ever

write anything4about Nassau County and Clay County,"'hoee ae small counties then

and still, some of them still are. Starkewas another county. So they just asked me

if I would travel in these counties and meet the officials. Dig up any stories I could.

And it was really sort of a pleasant, it was a very pleasant job. Furnished me with

an automobile, gave me an expense account. I was more or less on my own to dig up

anything. It was the kind of job most anybody could have done. But I enjoyed it and

cultivated a lot of friendships. And then I discovered in St. Augustine that that

was one of the, is a city that's just constantly filled with news. So basically,

from about 1959 up to 1965, I spent a great deal of time in St. Augustine. You know,

they had the, they had the railroad strike...

C: \ strike, um hum.

D: ...and a lot of dynamiting. And there we just big stories down there, happening

every week. So I was down there at the start of this racial sgaAme. And I got caught

up in it And, the thing that I remember, 'course, you know,

they had a few bombings. There were just incidents here and there that,more or less,

began to multiply and tension between the races began to increase. And so, then, I

think, and certainly I don't fault Mi for this, they decided,








CRSTA7AB


because of the King's people, they decided that, since there was racial tension there,

and the fact that it was the oldest city in the nation, that it would attract attention

to passage of the Civil Rights Bill that they were after at the time. And, it was

a very carefully planned campaign. I think you could have gone to any city, but St.

Augustine was, W he oldest city, was the image they needed, you know, to be able to

raise funds, to be able to use a slogan-"The Oldest Segregated City in the Nation".

And they were very clever with it. And, of course, if you're going to demonstrate,

you've got to attract attention. M_9 I remember that...

C: By the way, did anybody ever specifically state that to you, from the organization,

NCLC?

D: Never did, but it was just known. I know I talked with some of the guys that were

experts and they covered this b=s country, and they said "So what?", you know,

they were real shrewd. Naturally this is what they're doing, but they've got a cause.

They want to attract attention to it--they're dead if you can't attract attention to it.

They are slick, the people in St. Augustine, constantly. For example, King, I remember

King. It was either in Los Angeles or San Francisco. And a big dinner was scheduled

there and he was attempting to raise money for his cause. I know it was California--

it was either San Francisco or Los Angeles. And so, they passed the word in St.

Augustine-somebody very mysteriously called me at the Times-Union, and said, by the

way, did you know that a white guy," and I may be just a little confused on this,"but

there is a black couple, a white guy that owns a cabin out in a very isolated area of

the beach that he's going to turn this over to King." And I said, "No, I didn't hear

that." And I said, "Who are you?" And he said, "Well, never mind, I just wanted to

tip you." I'm pretty sure it was somebody, a friend of King's. I thought it was some

redneck. And so, I didn't print the thing about it. The next time I went to St.

Augustine, and that story was all over St. Augustine that that cottage, that particular

cottage, vacant, was going to be used by King, and everybody expected me to cover it.

0s So what happened?


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4 Some rednecks went out there and just blasted it. Blew all the windows out. Did you

read up on that story, by the way?

C: Yes, I'd read that story.

D: So, King was able to say, "You see what I mean? The oldest segregated city." And

the money just poured into it. That was the way they maintained their momentum. And
YOU YO\ca, but
I'm pretty sure they passed out the stories, here again./A ey felt they had a cause.

They had to do a few things in a devious manner. Why, in all, they were doing the

same thing in the Congress; they were doing the same type stuff, the whites were, to

keep blacks out of...to keep blacks from integratingrestaurants and things like that.

C: Since you covered St. Augustine for such a long period, did you, how would you compare

it as far as race relations were concerned with other communities?

D: I felt that race relations there were above the average compared with other communities

\hic I've seen.A I was born and reared in Georgia, and there was less segregation, less

animosity, open animosity for blacks than in many communities in Florida, in north

Florida, and many communities that I know in Georgia. And,,blacks live, whites sort

of live in the same block down there in some areas. And I never, 'course, don't mis-
COL9 YC- X'.
understand me, segregation-they're segregated. Blacks canm t use restrooms and didn't

use, they did not eat in restaurants there, and, but, you just never ran up on, now

this was in St. Augustine. I think in some of the rural areas, like Hastings, itJ/a

different story, where agriculture is predominant. You know, I just never ran up on

Si any, -. -racial bitterness in St. Augustine, up until Re began to get these
L -v ^.y.^,;'C c: Y few incidents that were more or less startedby Abe Qg\'\ n A tn was the guy

that first organized it down there. When he started, of course, a lot of people got

excited. Then, I think, he got a reaction from a certain element there that was, was

just natural. They were the old Southern whites, and I think most of those were rural

people.

C: What sort of guy was Miwt like in those days?

D: Well, 'course l~a was a, he was a person that always seemed to be very bitter.


Page 3











That, now, he, he got,4he was the type person, I thought, that, he, there was no way

in the world he was going to compromise. He was making demands that, in a sense, he
e- He Lu6e4 do oFOACoou6s
knew maybe they were just, but he knew they would never met.
\B 3 \' \ i\v6_ T bu _ey had-_ _
waw~RiAa Klan meeting. Did you hear about that?

C: Right.

D: So he goes to the Klan meeting. Goes out just looking for trouble. And he was a very

bitter man about conditions)and maybe justifiably so, but his attitude, his dogmatic

approach to any problem there that, you know, people were willing to listen to, why

just made most of the people in St. Augustine dislike him intensely.

C: I really...

D: I think a lot of blacks felt, not a lot, but some blacks felt the same way. They said,

hey, you know, if this guy would just keep his mouth shut, we'd get along.

C: Yeah.

D: But, as incident, as each incident occurred, you know, the bitterness just increased

gradually over a period of months and years and pretty soon it reached a point, you

know, where the community was paralyzed, virtually, between black and white. And

Hailing was responsible to a great degree with that. Now, another thing too that makes

me think that St. Augustine was, the bulk of St. Augustine people, and, of course,

later I think we discovered the bulk of whites everywhere, is when they got weary,

from all this marching--I know they were selling the thing, or they thought it was

selling--King agreed to, King pulled out and agreed to pull his

troops off. Then _____ started up again, and they began to get this, a
few things occurre. Like i"R\ h, \ d ob3
few things occurred. Like __ e collecting money, no doubt

about it in my mind. For the-first time in his life he was getting nationwide

recognition. He was getting his picture and stories in all the papers. But, generally

speaking, he was collecting money to pay for the fines of the whites that were arrested,

and he was going around,/merchant to merchant, collecting. Now,AI don't know whether

that's true and I certainly don't want to be quoted on that. But there's a guy down


CRSTA7AE


Page 4









CRSTA7AB


there--I know the whites that were real bitter against the blacks, and I knew one of

these guys. He worked for an engineer, and he told me about I-0CY~ He said,

"You know, everybody just turned against the whites turnedAhim because they

knew he was getting money and he was taking a big crack off the top. Thirty, forty

fifty percent of it and putting it in his pocket." So they fell out among themselves,

really, but once the people decided they were tired of that down there, they just said,

I know the last time 6 L '" street, a woman just came up to

him and said, "Why don't you go home and take a bath, you know, and get off the streets

and we're sick of all this and we're sick of you." Once the community decided that

they wanted to get rid of it, it was amazing how speedily they began to issue orders,

court orders that got the Klan out. They chased the Klan out of there. And I don't

think this guy, Dan, I forget his name now...

C: Warren, Dan Warren.

D: Dan Warren really began to act until he felt he had the community behind him. Boy,
0P_
once he got that sense, feeling, he began to just take action--probably was unconstitutional,

but he got the people out of there. I, St. Augustine is a very conservative town.

It is a Catholic town. Of course the amusing thing to me is, I had a Catholic that
a. 93
I knew, a devout Catholic, V g $s about 35 or 40, and he called me, over and he .said,

"What do you think of the Klan?" I said, "Well, not much." He said, "I was going to

help those guys," but he said, "I went out to their meeting the-other night, last night,"

he said, "they were cussing the Catholics more than they were the blacks." And I said,

'jhat's part of it. They hate everybody, you know." And, so, you had a Catholic

mix down there, but...

C: Old 'Ir.n1 t'/ Z ^ was Catholic too, wasn't he?

D: \CoCt~Lcy e was Catholic, and I had this preacher down there from California.

C: Connie Lynch.

D: Connie Lynch, of course he was the guy that proclaims it. But starting off, the


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CRSTA7AB


things that I remember most, if you want to jot this down--do you got this on there?

C: Yeah.

D: Mrs. Peabody came down. 'Course everybody had been expecting Mrs. Peabody there, and

that was at a point in time when nobody was really seriously upset about the possibility

of a racial strike in St. Augustine. And they had an Easter parade down there. I

believe she came down maybe a week later. And the Easter parade usually comes, falls

on Easter Sunday, I believe, of course, it could have been in late:March.

C: It was late March.

D: Late March of that year, as well as I recall. So, they were very polite and they were

arresting people and putting them in jail. And the demonstrators--they were putting

them in jail. People were sort of having fun, you know, with them. They thought,

well, a little excitement in St. Augustine. Mrs. Peabody came down, and they very

politely arrested Mrs. Peabody. I don't think she came down--I interviewed her, and

I asked her if she would plan to go out and try to integrate restaurants with blacks.

Well, she just wasn't really sure about that. She didn't know what she would do. She

was very frightened person, because she had heard all these horrible tales about the

South. So finally, Mrs. Peabody gets courage enough and they go out to the Ponce de

Leon and they try to get in with a bunch of blacks. So they came and arrested Mrs.

Peabody. was at home and this was a Sunday evening and they called and told me that

they had arrested her. So I rushed down to the jail and I went and interviewed Mrs.

Peabody, and I knew the jailer. I knew the sheriff. The sheriff said, "Sure, come on

down." So, I went to the jail, and the jailer's wife let me in. She said, "Come on
n
in, Hank," just as if I, you visiting me tonight, "Come on it, glad to see you." And

they said, "Just a minute. Mrs. Peabody, we'll get Mrs. Peabody for you." So I went

in the living room, you know, of the jailea} The jailer's, of course, lived there.

And, Mrs. Peabody came in and we sat down and talked. Well, I was the first guy to

interview her, but this United Press reporter found out about it and he '_S__ i

to have him come, so he came in. I forget his name, he was out of Atlanta. He came


Page 6








CRSTA7AB Page 7


in and sat with us. So we interviewed Mrs. Peabody. And the jailer's wife waeem~.aig
i6LA&I. Cjay
around. She wasesyrag, "Would you like some morecoffee, Mrs. Peabody?" you know,

and she was bringing around, and she was calling and addressing her as if she had been

an honored guest in E~t- house, and she was in the jail. The next day, of course, by

that time there were fifty newspaper people there. And I got a call from Boston--

there was an afternoon paper/that we could've been--it wasn't the Herald, the

Herald's the one I get so much stuff, but I, they wanted me to call. They didn't have

anybody down there. And I said fine, I'd be happy to. I said, "Look, we on these

deadlines, but this is big news. Anytime you get a new lead, give it to us because

we got five, six editions. So, I, they must have had fifty reporters down there.

Everybody camped outside. So they're passing orders out, saying r.i, nobody gets

in the jail but Hank Drane and somebody from the records, you know, Harvey Lopez from

the records." So, you know, all these guys standing there, and I'd go in the jail.

And I went in the jail the next morning. I'd interviewed Mrs. Peabody; of course,

the wires, thi~y;.d*dhave to pick that up. Most of the other papers picked it up.

And so, word got out that I was the guy that could go into the jail at any time, which

I could. And it was just real funny to me. One of these newsmen come up and said,

they'd say, "No, you can't go in the jail," or "couldn't I get in and talk with Mrs.

Peabody?" "No, ." And then I'd walk in Lne they'd say, "Oh, excuse me,"

and they'd let me in, you know, and then still explain to the guy. Everybody's very

nice. Of course, the sheriff down there, he's pretty much a showman himself, old

L. 0. Davis. A ice guy. He was the type of sheriff that he knew a lot of the people

down didn't want no law and enforcement, so he just abided by their wishes. He was

nice to everybody and it was sort of a carnival atmosphere amomsE So, Mrs.

Peabody, they alowevdtethave a news conference. Now, can you imagine that? Ten

o'clock, we're going to have a news conference. Sheriff agreed to it. I went in and

found out Mrs. Peabody was fasting. She had kind of refused to eat. So I went out and

called my newspaper, you know, up in Boston, to tell them Mrs. Peabody was fasting.









CRSTA7AB


They, big banner headline, you know, the first edition. Well, then, ten o'clock,

Mrs. Peabody came in all dressed up and painted up real pretty, you know, and on

national television there. So, she had a news conference on the jail steps. It was

sort of a ridiculous situation more than anything else, but she finally left. But I

just thought that that was a very humorous thing to me. That the people in the jail

treated Mrs. Peabody as if she were an honored guest the whole time she was in the jail.

And she just was, thought it was the greatest thing in the world. And, then, of course,

later, when things got, King started coming there. They began marching around the

square. One day I was driving from, back from Jacksonville, and a couple of guys

motioned to me, asked me if I could __ O_ _. I thought I knew who he was.

L#-___ and they said, "Look, we, as you know, we're, ,B

of the whites who are trying to get this city, or trying to protect the city from

all these people th-~ are coming out." Of course, they were people.

They said, "The paper, the blacks are getting all the publicity, and we feel like that

our side should be heard and we know about you and we trust you, and we'd just like to

get some stories. How do we go about it? Wha can we do?" And so, I became, at that

time, sort of the liaison between- group and the people that came there.

But they were beginning to attack cameramen, for example, and so, then o got the

idea that they'd hold countermarches. I guess you saw some stuff on that.

C: Um hum, um hum.

D: See, what the blacks would do is they would, they had a church service, then they

would, they'd start marching at exactly ten o'clock. They'd march around the square

and they'd have a little violence, and then they'd go back in. 41er would take

exactly thirty minutes. Exactly thirty minutes for them to march. Now, the reason

why I knew it took thirty minutes is because my second edition deadline was at 10:40.

That was the edition that came to St. Augustine. And I had ten minutes to call in a

new lead. And the only place that, you know, everything downtown was just closed up.


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CRSTA7AB Page 9


They were warning people to stay out. And the only place that was open was a bar

down there called the "Ship's Bar". I knew the bartender. And, so, I'd say, "Now,

Jerry, I want you to hold this telephone for me. I got to come in and call in a new

lead." He'd say, "OK, Hank, we'll hold it." So I used to go, rush in, as soon as the

last black got safely back into the 0SSk area, and I'd rush into that, rush in there,

and give them a lead. Just call up and say, "Hey, I've got a new lead." I'd say,

"the blacks marched again around the square and there was some bricks thrown, two

attack, two e0gy." Maybe about five, six paragraphs. I never will forget that because

they had a piano player there, a single on the piano playing; usually about that time

everybody was drunk in there, so, the reveling and the excitement; they'd just been out

and kgsw- a little singing, and I had to make that telephone call, to yell in there.

But I did, I must have done that twenty-five times. So, I sort of became the liason

between the, as I say, between the __ crowd and the media. I remember

they began attacking the press. And so the guys of the press were all staying down

at Hotel there,

C: Um hum.

D: Everybody's business was dead in town because no tourists were coming in. Very few.

They were scared to come in. You know, headlines all over the country, and St.

Augustine had a horrible summer except Jimmy His hotel was filled with

newsmen. So.Jimmy,. s all the newsmen stayed there41C- \ wanted to march, and he

said we got to get some publicity, one of the countermarches. He asked me if I would

talk to the newsmen.

Hell, no, we're fuming. We don't care if we get the publicity or not. So I had to

go back, 48S we set some rules. And there would be no attacks on newsmen. And I

said, "You got to announce right here now, because, Hell, myself, I hadn't planned

people come up and hit me in the back with umbrellas and various

things like that, and jab me and try to provoke me in some way. Because everybody down

there, the funny thing pebab~y about it was, everybody, every newsman down there,








CRSTA7AB


somebody walked up and say, "Hey, where are you from?" They'd say, "Well, I work for

the Atlanta papers," or "I work for the Jacksonville papers." You know, they always

listed a Southern paper. Nobody worked for any Northern newspapers. So, at any rate,

once I was announced, they came around and other newsmen were injured at that particular

time. And, I do remember getting back to Mrs. Peabody. I, she finally caught on that

I was the only one interviewing in the jail. She finally refused to give me an inter-

view. She said, "You're not being fair." She said, "You're getting all the news and

I don't think that's fair." And she stopped talking to me. But I remember the Boston,

I think it's the Boston Herald, they printed only on Sunday. And they called me and

asked me if I would go in and interview a minister in jail down there and shoot some

pictures of him. And, of course, I...

C: Was that William England? William England?

D: Was he a red-haired,..

C: Yes.


END OF SIDE 1A


Page 10









CRSTA7AB Page 11
Side 1B


D: And I said, "Look, somebody's going to write you might as well

let me write it." But, they were buying newspapers, people all over the

country to see what was being written about them, so that they could go to...you know,

they put the newsmen on a black list, that's what they were doing. But some of the

wealthy people there were getting papers--the New York.Times, the Washington Post, the

Boston papers. They were just buying every newspaper they could find, get in there to

the newsstand to see what was being written about them, and if something was written

they thought was a lie, they'd blacklist the newsmen. Some of them had to leave, no

question about it. And they'd watch the television program. It was the same situation.

So, anyway, TI-Awa-et for the Boston paper. I just told them that...course I didn't

newspapers a whole lot, when they're filing all that much copy in the paper,

so it's not that, I don't think they would have cared _; it'd be just

the idea that the Boston paper would know a little more than the Times Union. I

remember they nicknamed me "Henry Damon"--D-A-M-O-N, and I wrote quite a few columns

for the paper under the name Henry Damon. But one of the funniest instances down

there relating to tE3rnewsmen is, I got interviews with, of course, with several

newsmen, but this guy in particular, if you want to mention this; you don't have to quote

me on it at all, I'm just telling it like it is. He asked me, AP wanted an interview

with Hoss _'_0_, _i Now Clarence Jones of the Miami Herald had one, had one of the

most comical features of Hoss that you've ever seen. He came home, went out to Hoss's

house and he talked about it. Man, you know, Hoss out there TME a swimming pool

filled with bottles, and there were babies You know, just absolutely a

slam at Hoss. Hoss couldn't read very well, He asked me what I thought of that

story. He said, "You know, I thought it was all right," but, he said, "I'm not sure it

is. Some of the guys thought that he was, poking fun at me." I said, "Well, Hoss,

he talked about thecarirunning around, but I thought it was a real good -ory." He

said, ,* ifJ you say so, that's all right." He said, you know, he was really going









CRSTA7AB


at it, they went after these guys. They rully would, with violence, maybe not shoot

them or anything, but would beat the Hell out of them and threaten them in some way.

But, the AP wanted a story similar to that; so Paul Wills--that's P-A-U-L-W-I-double L-

S--Paul now is, he worked for AP, he was an AP man out of Tallahassee. And they sent

him down to relieve Don McKee-M-C-K-double E. Don was one of their experts with the

AP on racial strikes. He'd been to Birmingham, he'd been everywhere.

I think I've seen his name.

Yes, and he, he and I roomed together. He immediately looked me up. Heiknew that I

was in with the sheriff and the rednecks. Of course, he knew Martin Luther King so well,

that I told you the other-night on the phone, He called him one morning at three o'clock.

He got it, just AP called New York and said, "We understand somebody

shot the King and we want to know if he's all right. We haven't heard anything." I

called the sheriff's the day after AP just kept insisting, you know,

referred to that call, all the way from St. Augustine. So he called King's, the place

where King was staying and they said, "he's asleep." Don said, "OK, I got to talk

to him, I got to hear his voice." So King got up and caeFto the phone andai-- d ytr

____. __'" But, King, but anyway, we worked as a team. We covered the blacks,

and the blacks were a little suspicious of me because, maybe old times, usually with

a southern paper, probably was reflecting the views of the whites, which then they were

probably right, even though I wouldn't say And,

so, Paul Wills was there. He replaced McKee. And, so, I went with Paul in his room at

the and I said, introduced to Paul, said, OK, he said, I sat down in the

chair and he said, "Have a seat." Then Hoss takes this, reaches in his back pocket and

he gets out of..his belt a .38 caliber pistol. He said, "OK, sir, ask some questions."

Wills stayed with him about thirty minutes and there wasn't an unfriendly question

asked, I can assure you of that. And to this day, Paul himself gets a big bang out

of interviewing Hoss with a .38 pistol A ^ / But I saw him do that on several


Page 12








Page 13


occasions with TV people. He'd just say, "OK, fellas, run your cameras, ask your

questions."

C: Was old Hoss anything before the racial crisis? Was he even known in the community

before?

D: I don't think too well, He was generally known. Hoss, he formed this hunting club.

And Hoss...

C: Did that exist before the crisis?

D: Yeah, that existed before the fight.

C: It did.

D: I never, and of course, the idea was, Hoss was, you know, raising money, you know,

in any way he possibly could. But, I never, I had seen Hoss, you know, this big old

black Western hat on, and, but, I don't think a lot of people knew him, but he's had

a lot of natural leadership instincts about him. And he just took over after a Jhile.

He was tough, there's no question about that.

C: The attorney general, James Kynes, said that, that business people encouraged .

D: They did.

C: ...to sort of keep the blacks away.

D: Right.

C: What happened in St. Augustine was really tragic. But, these blacks came in and they

started marching. For a period of about a week, all they did was just march. And I

myself talked with the mayor down there who was a doctor.

D: Yeah, Shelley.

C: Yeah, Dr. Shelley. And I told Dr. Shelley, "Dr. Shelley," I said, "look, don't let those

people march. Get the police and just move everybody out of there. Don't let all those

rough, .tough people come in there. And, in a week's time, the newspaper people will

leave, and they're dead if they don't have a newspaper." And so, he said, "well, now,"

he said, "those people can march, have the right to march down there. I'm not going

to say that nobody can go down there and watch them." So, you know, that's was just


CRSTA7AB











like mixing watmwi fire. And so as long as they could provoke these people into

attacking/news, the tv people were getting thin. See, when they first started down

there, the first ploy was to get arrested. They'd go around to these places and they'd

arrest them and after about three or four days of shooting after that, the networks

didn't want...tv was a big thing. The networks didn't want it. Old hat. So, whenever,

I seen a few people trying to get in, don't knowwhy. So then they got the idea of

marching around the old slave market. OK, for about a week, they had violence. And

the tv people ate it up. Then for about another week, people just said, "Ah, hell,

let them march." They began and the marches got old.. Even if ~er-e was a little

violence, the marches got old. So what es~as they/do? They started wading in the

beaches. You know that was ai ~4q ~, ,,/ very time King and his people would turn
-1 \ -t ^ r
up with something ihey would inflamehe whites. So,,you know, wading, this is where

wading got a big start on the beach. AXverytime they'd go out there, instead of just

letting them go in and wade, those people, you know, were on time and one of the most

unusual things car-dQa g up and these guys were raising the hood,

bang, knocking them in the head. But, it would have been a very, very dangerous sit-

uation down there sent the troopers in there. But in

every way, as I say, you know, they were just outsmarted. And King was able to keep

that thing going until July 4th, when the Civil Rights bill was passed.

Right, right.

Boy, I'll never forget that night the Civil Rights bill was passed and they had that

long march. Those people not only marched, well, it was the night before it was passed.

They not only marched, they marched through those dark streets. And I was marching

with them. By that time, just about everybody was mad at the newspaper people. Blacks

and whites and everybody else. And I know I was walking down the and I

said, "Jesus, I don't want to even walk with them. I don't want to march with

some of the whites, where on the sidewalk the ( next page )


Page 14


CRSTA7AB








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whites are going to get it. I don't want to march with the blacks, you know, because

they might wgcgwaS throw something or shoot them." So what we did is we marched with

prpolicem rn and khs dogs. I figured nobody was going to hit one of those dogs. But

they marched, they kept marching and went all through the blackest alleys of the town.

Just courting any kind of violence becauseACongress was on the border to pass that bill.

Fortunately, nothing happened that night, -;RF re-.f mat violence. But

that was an intensive thing that I wouldn't

Why did they get the dogs in? Did Davis get the dogs specifically for...

Well, now this was, this was the chief of the police department. They started training

dogs down there and just most of them was brought on by the

fact that t f St. Augustine was becoming a battleground for civil rights. And, but

actuallygIe dogs seas not uncommon. I don't think they were common, but they, other

police departments had them. Most policemen -e eedafantastic training

with those dogs, and of course, they, I remember a lot of them, for instance, were,

you know, chasing burglars. I got a good story--went out chasing a burglar across the

roof of a downtown building with a dog, and the dog catching \ ,- But, I

think, generally speaking, that that was the start of it. They decided to get/trained

dogs. They knew about it and they saw a battleground starting. I know that the beach,

a, you know, that, where they kept advocating something. They always came up with some-

thing new that would cause the whites to trigger some violence so it would get

And they just kept thepress down there, I think, for .about three or four weeks while

that bill was being passed. Once the Civil Rights Bill was passed, things just sort of

ended real quick. That was what the blacks wanted. ____

What sort of fellow is Joseph Shelley, the mayor?
WICK/c C\)
Generally speaking, Shelley is like most people in St. Augustine HRe was sort of a

right winger, not as muchso as some of the doctors down there. Some of the old doctors

down there, my God, you know, they fight over the PTA down there. 'Course that was

sort of outside, that was just something -- erupted because of the black


Page 15








CRSTA7AB


thing and it was a sort of a spin-off from it. But Shelley was a good mayor and a

very pleasant person. But he was just stubborn as hell and he was not going to say

or do anything, suppress anyone from doi~g thing about expressing violence. He was sort

of pig-headed about that in my view. I wouldn't want to be quoted as saying that he

was pig-headed, but he did, you know, I think a lot of this stuff, you can just say

well, that right at this time, because I know this is exactly ho 7. I,

the problem with St. Augustine is it just all of a sudden became legal-less because

the whites did not want to exercise the leadership to say, "OK, let's settle this thing."
\^ao c(3;w d, DAdov oCt t\G, W
Now tried, you know, e- r-eek through the-

And so they said, hell, you know, there's a bunch of people invading out of town and

costing us all this money to our tourist economy. Let the whites take over,so they

encouraged it, no question about it. They encouraged it for a while. And it was a

legal-less situation down there. I remember on one occasion, somebody from St. Augustine

or a number of people from St. Augustine called CBS to talk to Walter Cronkite about

the one side he covered. They said, "All you coverenmas the blacks down here. You

haven't talked to the people of St. Augustine, the leaders of the community about what

the situation is here." So the next night, Cronkite got on CBS and said that they had

had complaints so they wanted to talk to the man that was recognized as the leader of the,

of St. Augustine. They want to identify him, they said. On the screen comes Hoss

_C_ I And giving the white people's side. He was saying...you know, he
C-
had this big old hat on and he was saying, "Well, the problem is if all these niggers,

you know, would get out of here," It was really/something. And, but that was the

problem. It was legal-less for a good bit, for several weeks for the simple reason that

nobody, leaders of the community, would stand up and say, "Now look, let's settle this

damn thing once and for all. Let's recognize, let's recognize the whites that are in

here are just as much to blame for stirring up trouble as we think the blacks are." And

so, and then we're playing right into thent hands of King and his troops. Absolutely.

Doing^exactly, he couldn't have written the script better. Our parts better. We're


Page 16








CRSTA7AB


playing right into his hands. Everybody realizes that.

C: Um hum. Was Herbert Wolfe doing, not doing anything either? I mean, he was an

influential figure...

D: Herbert was generally regarded as a very strong person in town, and he was. I knew

Mr. Wolfe. I went out and talked with him; you know, he just sort of threw up his

hands and talked with somebody. He was very as much as...he and Bryan

were very close. I think it was Herbert Wolfe who recognized that local law enforcement

would not be able to cope with the situation. But they didn't want to cope with the

situation. Hell, I remember one incident down there--Itass a police sergeant, and he

was walking down the street with his civilian clothes on, and had some type of a...and

he did this purposely...some type of a sword in a scabbard, and he just walked down

with that sword. Nobody knew who he was. So a patrolman stopped him.

They were taking all weapons, any weapon, any knife or anything. You know, they had

marshall law down there where they'd stop cars. They could stop you without any kind

of a warrant and search your car if you drove through the streets of St. Augustine. And

they'd confiscate any type, and man, they had guns and axes and knives of all descriptions.

Just piles of them stocked there at the national guard amory there. But, Wolfe rec-

ognized that L. 0. Davis, a politician, wasn't going to get out and arrest whites.

But if a situation came up where a white jumped on a black, you know, unless it was

just so obvious they had to do it, they weren't going to arrest...they usually arrested

both people, you got to arrest him too -

C: Um hum.

D: So, really, it was, I wouldn't say it was completely a lawless community. I think

L. O. Davis would have, would have prevented a black killing a white, but they were

resentful, lived there. They were resentful of these people who came

into, were in St. Augustine, marching in the streets. And they were outraged by it.

Hell, L. 0. had rednecks, detectives. They were just deputizing people right and left,

and most of them were, were people who were causing all the problem at the time.


Page 17








CRSTA7AB


You remember the policeman jumped him

Um hum.

He was mad as hell. He went in to pull him out. He didn't go in there to protect

him or nothing. He went in there to pull him out. He was just after his wallet.

So you had that kind of a situation, and I think that I can understand, to a degree,

how they felt. They loved the town. They felt that they were being invaded unjustly.

St. Augustine was being made an example of, before the nation that was going to hurt its

reputation. /Aeally wasn't that bad of a tame, and it all was a set-up. And, so they

brought the state troopers in there. More professional people. And the troopers didn't

want to be there. They absolutely didn't want to be there, because once outside police

came in, my God, you know, they, the townspeople resent it. So the

troopers came down under those conditions. The townspeople resenting them ie c) -V

to be there. They were really in sympathy,most of them,with the townspeople. But

they did an outstanding job. They really did an outstanding job. There's no question

in my mind about it. And there's still a major over there. I talked with him about

two years ago, who was very instrumental in that, yeah, in it. They, they were given

orders and they followed them one hundred percent. Now, Wolfe, I'm sure, is the
-~n 1 I,
guy that got Farris Bryantto S.inatl~ l troops down there. Just by, what you might

say, a stroke of fate or something. I was getting ready to call -ene

-.fthnew. Don McKee was there. He was I picked up

the phone, dialed my number, when suddenly a wire crossed and I got in on a conver-

sation between Wolfe and Farris. I recognized their voices, you know, because he was

and because I knew A. G. Woodward and I finally interviewed him

a number of times, but I just pho~ed on several occasions to receptions he had for

politicians, and the gist of what he had to say was that I think we need more troops

in So he was doing that. And I talked with this guy,

and he said, "What can you do? What can you do? I live here. I've got to live here

after it's over. I'm doing everything I can behind the scenes," and, he said, "it's


Page 18








CRSTA7AB Page.19

just a bad situation." I, but I got in on that conversation and was able to write

a story. Bryantjust said, "sure, we'll sign. How many more do you think you need?

I'll talk to __." He said, "We, at the very least, need around fifty

more." He said, "We need at least that many.", So, I wrote a story the next day on
]c k W ooc,".'-,,- \
those same things. Well, I eteBgEE.-.~Itte and I told them that I had gotten in on

Idez conversation. He laughed about it. He said, "Well, don't quote me, just say that

the governor's promised a local fisherman that's he going to send more troops down."

They did a masterful job. The first guy that came down--and I wish I could remember

what his name was-colonel or a major--and he was...

C: It was a Jordan, wasn't it? Jimmy Jordan or something?

D: One of them, one of them, this was the first guy that came down there, he did his best.

He leaned over backwards to try to appease both sides. So consequently he got very

little results and he, so they sent a second man in. Now you can find out who this is.

I remember he was about 5'10", stocy guy, and he got orders to come down and crack down

on these guys. And I talked with him and he told me he was. He said, "I want you to

know these people. We're going to your. newspaper. We're not going to tolerate

any violence whatsoever." And they were letting them get away with things, you know.

For instance, the troopers maybe, might a few had.saw a fight or something, they

weren't rushing over and arresting the guy. They were maybe going over and separating,

and saying, "Now fellas, you know f~, '9e nice." So this guy that came down, I

believe his name was Sullivan, he got all his troopers down there. He invited them

down and he said, "Heed the law out there. I know how you feel," but,

he said, "we're going to have ." So the next day, out at the beach, this

bunch had gone out in the water the day before, and had just beaten the hell out of

some people. The troopers had been told to let these people go out in the water.

The troopers didn't go out with them, they just stood by on the beach. So, the next

day the troopers waded into the surf to the black people. So this white started

attacking. Those troopers just started beating the living hell out of him. And that








CRSTA7AB


Page 20


stunned .--- And that's one of the things apparently used for violence.

Um hum.

But, they were arrested; they were on running off. So they did a magni-

ficent job. I think if anybody tells you that they didn't, they will resent it, and

when under very trying situations, they....




END OF SIDE 1B








CRSTA7AB Page 21
Side lB


D: For a period of time, they'd just walk out in the streets and stop the fight.

Gotta get out. He had a knife, they'd take them in a pocket. They took

pocketknives and everything. Just so many strange people.

C: Is there any truth to one of the charges that, I guess this is~tidEy in the crisis,

that Davis would take the weapons...or the state police would take the weapons from the

whites and then give them to Davis, and Davis would give them right back to them?

D: I don't doubt that. I think they did a lot of things .They tried

to cooperate with Davis. They got to the point where Davis himself just, he had the

power. You know, he'd tell them, he'd say That could be

true, I'd have to believe that.

C: Um hum.

D: A\o me, but to me, Farris YV-.

C: What'd you think, then, of Simpson's decision, of course, to tell them to stop, that

he couldn't use the patrol to stop the marches. He tried to stop the night marches...

D: Yeah, he tried to stop the marches. Well...

C: Did you cover any of those cases \ <'**/ that went up to Simpson's court?

D: Yeah, well, I testified when it waskover, coming from the Jacksonville area. Yeah,

they, I believe Bryantdid order a ..... It was just a federal court

ruling. I think you could argue either way. They had the right to march, I mean,

that's what he said.

C: Um hum.

D: The right to demonstrate, what, under the Article I of the Constitution.

C: Right, Constitution.

D: And freedom of speech, freedom of..

C: Assembly.

D: Yeah, freedom of assembly. So, I can't quarrel with the city.

C: What sort of man was he, was Simpson? I mean, I've talked to him, but how did you








CRSTA7AB


find him in those days?

D: Well, you know, they called him Simpson, that was his name. I know he asked

me a question I don't understand. I don't think he must have thought my answer was

very fine, but he said, he aksed me if, if I had.nCot\'~Y animosity,

or heard anybody threatening, making threats And so

I said I hadn't heard anybody threaten to kill anyone.

and the FBI ____ was watching, and after that. And I said, "I

think the man that is likely is you." And I've heard a lot of people

say "I wish you'd come to St. Augustine." But I thought Simpson was, even though a

Southerner, that he leaned over backwards to make sure that the blacks had freedom of

assembly. He was pretty tough, and he was the one that put the fear of God in the hearts

of some of those people like Hoss 1 They got Hoss up there, and they named

the members of that club. You know, Hoss wrote them out on a brown paper bag. Hunting

club, he got thenames of them. He showed them to me, and he wrote them out in scribble

pencil on a brown paper bag. But Hoss was, Hoss was, I think, more afraid



C: Was there any truth to the charge that was made that there were FBI in the Klan? You

know, that they had joined secretly the Klan?

D: I believe so. We heard that, and I think it got out among the Klan that there was...

I'm sure there must have been I'm sure that some of the

people that were demonstrating with the whites or intended to be anti-black--part of

/IO ;1- gang or part of the Klan--I don't think there's any question about that.

C: Did President Johnson ever intervene, to your knowledge?

D: No, I'm sure that he was keeping very close watch over here, but to my knowledge I

don't know anything that Johnson did. They were just so awed the night that it all

sort of ended. The night before that they had blacks...they finally broke through-the

line. f ~- -- -_-- I called it a riot. Maybe I was a little

strong-worded, They broke in lines, the police couldn't hold


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CRSTA7AB


them back. Just fighting, you know, And there were. a lot of people

And so, you know, people were fighting wanted to know who they were

fighting. Big fight developed between two, two whites. Just, God, he must have been

about six feet and six inches tall, and weighed about two hundred fifty or sixty pounds.

And he was down there demonstrating. And somebody attacked a patrolman, this guy named
-P3
Buddy that I wantedrto talk with about Hoss. He was one of the guys that lead this

group out at the beach. Blonde-headed guy and they had some clubs, you know. He

was the one that planted all the but, and he was trying to work with Hoss

at first, then he fell out with Hoss about the money. I think Buddy was sincere and

respectful, and he wanted to get them and get them out of there, by violence if necessary.

But if he raised any money, it was for the cause, it wasn't to put in his pocket. So,

Buddy grabbed the policeman. Buddy was about five ten, weighed about

now just as tough as he could be. But he was small. I guess Buddy wasn't but about

So this big guy came up to him and said, he said, "Don't bother the

patrolman. Don't bother the patrolman." And he kind of shoved Buddy back. And Buddy

swung at him. And this guy hit Buddy and knocked him as far as from ra to that pole.

Dammit, at the one way back by the closet door. I was standing there

watching. And he hit him, and you know, Buddy, it was just like in running back as

fast as he could. And he finally crashed into an automobile. But you know Buddy came

into him and they had the damnest fight there you ever saw in your life, until some-

body broke it up. So I went over to the hospital

we about twenty five or thirty, but I don't think

anybody was seriously hurt. One of the injured guys over there was this big guy and

he was standing there in the hospital talking to his little mother, who was about

five feet three inches tall. He was crying, he

"That died down there." He said, "I was just trying to help the patrolman."

He was actually crying like a ten-year old kid. And he said, "One of them guys hit me

and cut me a lot like that." So she said, "Now, don't cry, baby." .


Page 23









CRSTA7AB


Just a number of unusual situations. Anybody ever tell you the story about, I wanted

to talk about Brock. I think that will give.us somewhat about what I did, then you can

ask me some .Joe Fulbright, trying to please everybody. Very nice to the newsmen.

He's just a heck of a good guy. He joined a group of businessmen, saying, you know,

"Gee, let's, let's try to end this thing. We're against segregation."

They tried to work mr a solution to it and that's when the got

So Fulbright, he worked with the newsmen, he was very friendly to them.

And I don't know whether you, he started throwing acid down then. And he came down

there while we were all eating breakfast one day,,and had a little package

it was some type of an antidote for acid. Had

instructions on if someone throws acid, quickly get water. Mix it with

this and wash it eyes out. Courtesy of the Had a _

probably going around and cheek hands with everybody as if he

were presenting a carnation or something. Then Fulbright, after

he, the newsmen left, then everybody began to decide well, Jesus, you know, he was

really against us. Because the first thing Brock did when they settled it, is he let

blacks come in, ___ "_u__ l_______ -- Everytime they had a demonstration

kO 5 ,they'd go to Brock's restaurant, for the benefit of the tv camera. You'd

have to drag them, Well, King knew they

were down there. King got arrested One night they demonstrated

_UB Brock's hotel nttil two o'clock in the morning. And he came, then he got real

tough. He got this man, and he gave the bastards hell

C: Yeah, right.

D: And, I did a story on that, a feature story. Then he got real tough. Everybody said,

"Hooray for Brock, great guy," you know, had all the whites. All the newsmen, they

liked ihim, he was a good guy. Then all of a sudden, Brock, first they reached a truce--

his restaurant was one of the first ones to let them in. And all was well then.


Page 24








CRSTA7AB


the blacks The blacks got mad about it.

They bombed his place. His place got such a reputation, that tourists stopped coming,

then they wouldn't stay there. So, you know, he almost went bankrupt; as a matter

of fact, I believe he had to give up his share of the restaurant, came to work in Jacksonville

C: Um hum.

D: But he is now back here.

C: He's back? Um hum.

D: Yeah. He was kind of a pathetic creature. Nice fellow. So, he, Brock, therewas another

side of it, though, I thought was most interesting. There he was, you know, prospering

everybody else thought and all of a sudden the business people and

everybody else, nobody would go there, because they bombed his place. Time-

bombed his place.
CQo\
C: Looked like he completely lost his-peio or, I don't think I should put it that way,

but it looked like he was interested in trying to settle this thing, but then when they

jumped in his pool and then those rabbis, I think it was same day, said they'd pray

for him.

D: That's right. He did...you know, here was a guy that was caught up in something that

was so big that he didn't really understand it, and he was trying, really, to please

everybody. And he could please nobody. He went along with the businessman. Let's

give it a try. He, then when they began to jump in his pool, the rabbis prayed, yet

he resented the fact that he needed praying, that he was a bad guy. Well, that's when

he turned tough. And then when they decided, you know, when all the blacks, Hoss was

down there all the time, and when they settled the thing and everybody went home, he

was one of the first to integrate. He was the first place that was integrated. So

basically, he tried to please everybody, pleas e nobody. And he

was a great guy, you know, just the nicest person. Just a type guy, you know.

But, you know, you can imagine-I did a feature story

and I don't know if you saw it. you don't imagine sitting in my


Page 25








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motel room, now in, on all the networks, reporting it. I looked and I see where

all these people have demonstrated, and I'm a bad guy. But anybody could do

a story

C: Um hum.

D: Well, I stayed with him and he debated King. That was just talking with him, and we

finally talked. At his front door. He told me

The police had a few spies themselves, and King got, knew exactly what King was going

to do. But King didn't care. And so everybody just from

Brock's Hotel and that's where they had And so King was

S_____ He told me, he said, no, really, he told me, he said, "Gee

I got a load of churches for you." So they didn't He said, but

I have to liveIthis community.And if I, if I let blacks come in here, then my

white customers wouldn't come. And I'd go into bankruptcy. And I got my whole life

into this business. This is, this is me, my life. All my savings and everything else.

I know one night I was out at the beach, and this black guy came right up, quietly.

Black guy came into the restaurant, just asked somebody if they served food. And

I said:no, they didn't. And he said, "We don't serve blacks in the city, and I'm

sorry." The black guy said, "well, gee, you know, that just

He sat down,.stopped at a couple of places. So the guy said, he said, "just park your

car over there." He said, "You park that thing and you just stay there ."

So he went to where a big, huge dentist was, Just

a part of the attitude. cookingg back now, I would say that seventy percent of the blacks

were willing to accept and really afraid of They didn't want to be the

leaders Once it came, I think everyone breathed a

sigh of relief. Everybody said, "Hey, you know, the South, look at the South, you know,

all those bastards that hated blacks down there--now they're integrating their schools,

and integrating their restaurants. They're doing better than the North." But the

compassion was there all along. Compassion was there, no question in my mind at all.


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C: Yeah.

D: I know I felt that way myself.

C: It's tough to make that break.

D: Yeah, I felt that way myself. Well, I really was never, I never had the courage because,

Christ, I don't, you're risking your own standard in the community. But, ...

C: What...you know, one of the fellows, people that I talked to the other day was Frank

Upchurch's son.

D: Hamilton.

C: He...yeah, Hamilton. He was telling me about the, one of the things he noticed, he

said the newsmen over here were awfully young. He said that, he said, "I don't know

if they're inexperienced," he said, "but they're o- young." Did you notice that?

Were the newsmen young v 6t- \VtifLi 'je\

PINot that it matters, but I suppose what really matters were they inexperienced?AWell,

I thought they had some pretty good ...

C: Um hum.

D: ...of course. I thought some of them, some of their writings were slanted, a lot of

them were slanted. I know this guy from Newsweek, and I forget his name, he wrote one

of them slanted pieces of but one guy I know over there they roughed.up.

Oh, yeah, I little gal was knocked down.

I think, she was knocked down by one of our own people trying to get out

there; knocked over a-eab and lay there crying.

then a white doctor and she lay there crying. Nobody would help

herq up or anything.

C: Oh, yeah, she came out of the bushes or something, wasn't it?

D: A eh-std.that was just, that was something that wuse@aLt dreameLz a_

We all said, "hey, somebody ." I saw it. She was as much knocked over

by her own people. She was just there and she got knocked down. And of course, it

scared the hell out of her, no question about it. But, I never saw anybody strike


Page 27








CRSTA7AB


a child Now, but the funny, one of the funny things about the

countermarches were they marched all night. Everybody just having a

good time. And marching, they'd march through the black area, marching, marching.

Dave, I thought this was going to be they would have

turned the tables on As they marched, started marching through the

first part of town, there would always with the black children

saying, "all we want is to, is a fair deal. We want a good education." And, of

course, Hoss could see there was such important signs--little children holding them

up, Hoss, Hoss could tell that he was out, knew he was down, because the television

cameras were just there kids. So Hoss says, "all right," he says, "we

ain't going to boss nobody." You know, he knew that King That

stopped their marching.

C: I had read somewhere that some of the, well, no, I didn't read it, I guess it was

Shelley, in fact, that was arguing it to me, that some of the violence was set up for

the cameras. That, I don't know, did you hear any of that, that the black people there

would pretend that they were being beat up and the cameramen would run their film, and

take pictures of them.

D: It's possible that that happened, but they didn't have to sell you.

C: Um hum.

D: But, every night they would get out there and march. Of course, I would have said

and this was true. Newsmen would tip the black community when he was going

to go up, where they would be. They had to be because where I cameras

were sitting right there. But here again, that's part of it.

C: Yeah.

D: You have to demonstrate, and if you don't want to attract attention to a demonstration,

you ain't doing it right. And, so, you know,

And, of course, the press, they-re-argung with the press and wonder today, "is this

true," you know. Does the press itself make news? And it does, too, to a great extent.


Page 28








CRSTA7AB


And the press was concerned about this. You know, if we'd all gone home, there

wouldn't have been anything. But yet, here, a bunch of people demonstrating, trying

to gain freedoms that they thought were their dues. I think they were due, and so

consequently this was their way of attracting attention to their quarrel. So I think
Of
it was the press' obligation to report it, even though they knew it was a lotAit was

staged for the benefit of the press. And it's, you know, it's a dilemma that's been

chewed over, time and time again. The press has argued about it. The very presence of

the press, though, frequently makes news. I know that we have a peace

talks going on, going on between Israel and Egypt. Sadat, Sadat has some plan, what's

the first thing, he does? answers to the press, he tests/entiment. He

is, you know, television as the top commentator sometimes. Becomes so immersed in the

talks that they were having. When we are, I think there's a question& about it, we

are map writers for the important people. It was a big story because the press

covered it. We gave aid and comforting

because of Martin Luther King, but I think most of the movement now are trying to do it

in a way to show exactly what was happening

C: Were they getting, were be blacks getting treated at the hospital?!/ herei no problem

as far as if they were beaten up then?

D: I don't think so. I, you might hear some -/ but really

anybody we got _

C: Um hum.

D: I think the people got very _

C: Right.

D: One kid had his skull fractured.

C: I wonder why, do you have any thoughts on why the doctors were so conservative? Over

there?

D: Well, most doctors are conservative, you know, -42 -S.3 I guess maybe it's because

they get rich. But I think one thing all doctors think _


Page 29









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I assume that they know that they may mean the difference between

life and death, but down there they just a fee. The hell with

surgeon and most other places. But, my God, they were

the ones that lead the fight against the PTA.

C: Um hum.

D: Just absolutely ridiculous attitudes and the way they felt. They were just extreme

right-wingists. Now I wouldn't include Shelley in that group. Shelley was part of

themjbut he was a bit more.to the left. I thought, in a sense, he was, to a degree, a

reasonable fellow. I don't believe he ever advocated violence.

C: Um hum.

D: His idea was, well, you know, blacks will go down there. They're going to go down there

and march, and the whitesare going to go there, and naturally
and march, and the whites are going to go there, L and naturally

there's going to be violence, and there's nothing I can do about it.

C: What about 1965? Was, did things just, were they really fairly peaceful in 1965?

D: I think so. I think, 'course I wasn't there in '65. That's when I left and started

to become politically active.

C: I see.

D: And the, most of the acts of course, happened in 1964. And I did notice

this--after things quieted down, OK, a lot of people began to come back to St. Augustine,

in late August and early September.

C: Um hum.

D: And I had so many people...I would talk with tourists and they'd say, "one of the reasons

we came back here...we're from Massachusetts." A world of people came down from

Massachusetts. They hated the Peabody's, and they'd say, they'd go around to

merchants and say, "we're from Massachusetts, and we came down here because we resent

the fact that Mrs. Peabody's down here trying to tell you what to do." So, the: tourism

industry picked up. One of the last memories I have of St. Augustine--they had this


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fantastic ._ down:there, it was just fantastic.

C: Right, right.

D: I believe that was in September.

C: It was, yeah.

D: And Demon Stone made a I was down there and the whole city was just

flooded almost. There was only about one street that wasn't flooded all the way from,

almost all the way from the bayfront down to the railroad station down there. We got

out and walked in the thing. We walked waist deep in water. And that hurricane and

various things like that hurt some, but they forgot it, but you know the dregs

of bitterness from being know, I think,

C: Um hum.

D: But, like everything else, people forgot about it and came and went. And I suspect

that the relations between the whites and the blacks

about as good as any

C: Um hum.

D: And it was just something that happened, I think, was great As far as I

knew, look back on it now, it was one of the turning points of the relations between

all of them. When the racial strike was on, that

was one of the turning points in breaking with blacks, because I felt ;

there's no question in my mind that that was the catalyst for the passing of the Civil

Rights bill. Probably would aEia rt I think that it came early

C: Um hum.

D: For instance, one of my major stories

but knew it was a big story and it covered Just being there

is something that stands out in my mind more than anything else I've... it was difficult...

you know, we knew we were there covering it, but you got, there were times you just

got tremendously discouraged and yet, when it was all over, altogether, I guess there

was the excitement of feeling that you were involved. It was very simple


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Um hum.

But, I just feel that as far as being a part of history, you know, say sitting on the

rim like he was supposed to do things, that this is

Really, it is a I felt that

I still have Perhaps I did the best at that time. Having

them I'd like to understand why those people resented me,

but I, there wasn't very much understand why you can't judge

a He was one of the greatest speakers that I've

ever heard. Absolutely spellbound. And there was maybe some new that I

never knew about. 'Course he was the key to the One of the best

black men Everybody said that was his so


Um hum.

After his death, we know Andrew Young, he's a very intelligent black. There are many,

many things that You know, blacks are all for .

And I sort of got a warning of what was to come. There were some, there was two

main girls, just went into a black area,

You know it was dark and I got stranded with

Don McKee, the first that the blacks Nobody so McKee

said, "Look, I got to call about ." You know, all

the whites are leaving, and I said, "OK, stop at this bar." Jesus, I didn't have to

call It was too late. twelve o'clock.

These blacks and they, they were trying to buy me drinks.

I couldn't understand what they were talking about, and I was about as when

the fifteen minutes


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