Title: Don Warren [CRSTA 5]
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00005746/00001
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Title: Don Warren CRSTA 5
Series Title: Don Warren CRSTA 5
Physical Description: Book
Publication Date: 1978
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Bibliographic ID: UF00005746
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
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Subject: Don Warren
Interviewer: David Colburn

S: I became an Assistant State Attorney on August of 1961 and I would have

become the State Attorney, the following July of 1962.

I: And that was an elected position, is that correct?

S: I was elected to the unexpired term in September of 1962 and then-w~-
subsequently/reelected in, let's see now, I had two elections, right,

OK, I was subsequently reelected as, I think our primaries at that time

were conducted the Democratic primaries were conducted in May.

I: Right.
S:A'hoever won that one in May of '64 would have had four additional years.

So, I had two elections. I had to/run for the unexpired term in September

of '62 which I won. Then I had to run again in 1964 which I won again.

Then I resigned in '68. I think that was the sequence.of terms.

I: What areas of the state did you have?

S: It was called the 7th Judicial Circuit. It comprised four counties,

Volusia, Flagler, Putnam, and St. Johns.

I: What were the duties?

S: The duties of the State Attorney at that time was tanprosecute felony

cases and to assist the Grand Jury's presentation of matters for the

Grand Jury. We also had duties of prescribed by the Statutes, which

included such things as enforcement of the

\, ,* no n-bup't' The primary duties were to prosecute all felony cases,

felony and capital cases. We did not have jurisdiction at that

time. We had, they had a county prosecutor in St. John's county.

I: When did you first become involved in the events in St. Augustine?

S: Well, I first became involved with the Grand Jury in November of the

proceeding year. This is before Dr. King, the SCLC came into St.


Augustine. And we called the Grand Jury for the purpose of trying to

get some dialogue between the black community and the white community

for the purpose of establishing a biracial commission. We took
;e6 \, C, W Q to,
testimonX from approximately 26 witnesses as I recall andthat wa-

to get a biracial commission standing. This seemed to be theAcontro-

versy. The lack of participation bylblacks befe the4coming quadri-

centennial that St. Augustine was going to be celebrating in 1964 for

the four hundredth founding of the city. And a biracial commission,

I mean a quadricentennial commission, had been established, I believe

by the legislature and I think it was funded by the legislature. OGic/~ ,

Several of the blacksA primarily Dr. Haste, had requested that there

be a black on these. commission / his led to CO/ n: and a ld

that he would suggest this. From there on out, things went downhill.

We realized that this was a potentially explosive situation. In order

to hit it off, we utilized the Grand Jury. And they did come out with

a report and suggested as I recall, n A but as I

recall it requested both sides to exercise calm and also to, as I recall,

request the city commission to set up a biracial committee.

I: Yeah, right. As I remember to% the ... .asArather critical
1/-, ,,- wasA rather critical
of he handing of some of his statements.

S: Yes, thatprobably so.

I: Did you get much cooperation from the white leadership in testifying

before the Grand Jury?

S: We had, let's see, as I recall, I can't recall exactly who it was that

testified before the Grand Jury. But whoever didicome before the Grand
,; Ao 0 a a .- :.-... D IXrSee' 5" :-
Jury,/voluntarily,Awas not ,.. N type thingAwhere we would issue

subpra- ,~ h to come in. f\e would request, you know, the

leaders of both sides to come in and sit down and talk about it.


Page 2


Try to get a dialogue going. YAou understand that I cannot discuss

what went on in the Grand Jury.

I: Right. Exactly. OK. How about Haling. You had some meetings with

Haling in both '63 and 64. How would you discribe....

S: No, not with Haling.

I: Oh, you didn't.

S: No.

I: Oh, I see.

S: No, not with Haling. I may have had one meeting with him after this

incident occurred where he and several of his black friends had gone

down to a Ku Klux Klan meeting, I believe that they had been severely

beaten. I think maybe at that time, he came in and made an complaint

at that time.

I: Right. OK. How about Mayor Joseph Shelley?

S: Well, the mayor and I just don't see eye to eye on this ttifng at! il,

tfs situation. Here's where I feel a real lack of leadership be4cmo

it took place. St. Augustine never should have happened.A the request

of blacks was of course entirely proper. And in keeping with their

desire to participate in an event of great importance in their lives

too. /Also, of course, Haling was an activist. And the only thing het-

he was asking for.was the natural rights that belong to every human being.

And so the criticism would have to lie with the white leadership, its'

failure to recognize, to take action.

I: What about '64? When did you first, did you have any dealings with

e- V'AV~ SCLCAin '64?

S: Yes. As I recall, I, let me see, I have a chronological from

here on out, OK. My first involvement would be probably Thursday,

June the llth with the then current crisis. King had been into

Page 3


St. Augustine, I think, in May for the first time and had called for

again, for a biracial commission to be created. He then,/this was

ignored, began to set up demonstrations, day-time demonstrations.

Then the city commission of St. Augustine passed an ordinance which

required a permit to march. Then King went into the Federal district

court to enjoin the city of St. Augustine from interfering with the

First Ammendment rights. And me" Simpson issued an order enjoining

the city from interfering with peaceful demonstrations.

I: OK. How about the one with Governor Bryant? Were you involved in that

at all where Governor Bryant put a curfew on night marches?

S: Yes, in fact I suppose I was the one that was instrumental in that.

I: In what way would that be?

S: Well, herco3orcthe marches had been in the daytime and we4were

charged with the responsibility of protecting the rights of the marchers

and also their constitutional rights to p acefully assemble and

petition the government , 4 e grievances as required by

the first amendment. And the route that they were going to take, we
yOCA.V N-Wt )
had asked that they let us have the route,/an hour or two ahead of

time so that we could have sufficient troops on hand to protect their

first amendment rights. When they switched to the night marching, the

routes that they gave us disturbed us because it encompassed marching

through the old city. And there was just no way in the world that we

could protect the marchers and there were young children in the group

from anyone hiding in ambush that wanted to inflict bodily harm on them.

There was just no way without,- 4mhe martial law being imposed. A ahat

decision, I consulted with the governor on that decision and explained

it to him. He issued his order and I was the one that implemented the

Page 4

CTM Page 5

order that night, which led to the contempt citation. And I testified

before Judge Simpson in the Federal district court to just what I told

you. And after that was over with, I remember meeting Andy Young in the

hall, and he came over and talked to me for just a moment andilsaid you

know, that testimony won the case for Governor Br-de..AThat was the very

thing that we were concerned about, how could we justify the death of

any of the marchers. If we cheese the route, which could not be fully
Tc -- protected for .

I: Did the marchers on any occasion sort of try to the lines, the

C\,'(' \ police lines?

S S: No, no. They were extremely orderly.

I: I was wondering though, when they gave you the route they were going to

take, did they anytime deviate?

S: No. They followed the route except on this occasion when we wouldn't

let them.

I: How about your workings with the FBI ? Did you have much connection

with the FBI during this period ?

S: No, we were there mostly as bxV____ We had, I had

with the FBI. Most of mine was when they made their charges who was

the Florida Highway Patrol. We had sort of a

head quarters. And I was there under State

Attorney a special appointment. And actually implemented

his Attack executive under a which

granted the governor almost total legislative powers to handle the

situation. I issued the first order

(The tape is malfunctioning at this point)


CRSTA 5A ctm Page 6

that had instructions to

and to permit error __ the rights of another

to use such force as is necessary to come this proper.

And all those that walked away.

waded out into the ocean and lost their tubes and some of them drown.

was alive a survey

of law enforcement officers. Some of them with them. It kind

of worried me that because I think that the

actually will talk to the state superintendent

with the activities and the plan

I: Was there a good deal of coordination between the state police and the

sheriff and city police chief's office?

S: Ah, it was more,/A would have to say that the city police, you've got

to understand that they were just absolutely ill-equipped

situation such as this, mentally or physically. And so the

type of cooperation really would not be that much

your manpower all comes from the state. And that

virtually stripped the Florida Highway Patrol and the Florida Fresh

Water Commission and all other regulatory agencies

The troops in St. Augustine had about They had

had no training either. It was_

I: Were the local officials Sheriff Davis, were they more

than willing to work with them?

S: They were pretty They did work, I don't know

of any incidents in which they entered the state agencies. The fact is,

I know several instances which l- J 'D 1" accept personally. I really

went out on the line to accept them. We had a real, real touch cA& 9OC


0. ? (5L
situation that almost had A;iwnde the night before. When we had

the no backup, when we had the night marches, we

came out and asked everyone to stop talking now about

the night before. And they were asking everyone to refrain from acts

that could be construed as violence. A friend of mine who I had

borrowed from to assist me in this thing, George

He now works for Senator Jackson in Washington,

suggested that perhaps we could get the whites to call off their

demonstration. See they, the whites were marching and the blacks

were marching and they were marching side by side, only going in

opposite directions. So we had a secret meeting with_

George and myself, and investigated

a holiday and I had just met with Ken4at about

six thirty in the evening. So we knew that

the whites were going to march that night

so we asked call the march off. We expressed

surprise over the fact this is a democratic organization

and we will take a vote on it. And so _we agreed to

do it. We have written out the

__ and held on to all law abiding

citizens call off the

and shouted I'll tell you one thing,

it didn't take as much The thing that really amazes

me is citizens of St. Augustine did commit

How did they allow as they did?

This was I had n knowledge of how it permits

What's his name, Shelley claims that he asked you if you knew anything


it and you said

S: Was I don't recall Shelley ever saying that to me.

I never asked him whether or not he could do anything about it. He may

have I don't know. We did do this, we _______ at all of these

whether or not we had permission to Now

I was the one that {C on private property

blacks to have them arrested. So I don't

think the facts his position. ... i ,' I,. i ..o.l O

NBC set up a showing to see if there was anything ''

we could use They were very gracious. They put up a little,

theatre where I could sit therewith2la couple of/boys. Ve sat through

almost two days, maybe three days, nothing but this harrang to see if

we could

I: Now Hamilton Up44ege was your assistant, wasn't he?

S: No.

I: He was not.

S: He was not at that time.

I: I see. When was he your assistant? Was it '63?

S: Let's see. Hamilton quit almost immediately after I became, well I won't

say immediately, within the matter of a year anyway, 7

as I recall at that time.

I: Why did Upchurch quit? He didn't agree with you on this....

S: No, that wasn't it at all. We were and still are close friends. He

supported me in both/ campaigns although after I made my famous

speech, he wrote me a letter and said he didn't think he could support

me any longer which was perfectly alright.

I liked Hamilton very much, in fact, I helped him as best as I could in

his race fordlegislature.

Page 8


I: How about Simpson? How would you describe Simpson as a Judge? He

sort of switched around here somewhat in '64. Initially, he, over

the Easter demonstrations, he ruled against the demonstrators and then

later on, when they had the mass demonstrations which you witnesses, he

changed ground and supported the demonstrators.

S: Well, I thin4l the fault, I don't know about the Easter demonstrations,

but I would say that if he presented Judge Simpson with aAissue, supported

by evidence of a violation of any constitutional right, Simpson, without

any bhes4t c" at all, would guarantee those rights. He would do

absolutely nothing to interfere with constitutional rights. In that

regard, I consider him to be one of the great judges of all time in the

Federal district.

I: Did you have much working with him before '64?

S: No, I had known Judge Simpson prior to this time, primarily through

my later law partner but a good friend to the judge, he and the judge.

And I had known Judge Simpson but you see I had no practice in the

federal district court because being stationary I had given up my private

practice. I had devoted full time to '.1 ".; ''

I: Right. There was a, Shelley said something about the children. I was

wondering if you could validate this at all. He said that the black

children of the demonstrations had come there from out of, been brought

in by King and alot of them without their parents' consent.
S: No, I don't think that was true. io factAthere was a charge made by

the probation officer against King alleging this. I don't think it was

ever proven and I don't believe it is the truth.

I: OK. How about Governor Bryant during all of this. Was he, now he had

spokea('63 to the House Committee that was considering the Civil Rights

Bill, that was ultimately adopted in '64, he spoke against it. What

Page 9


sort of position did he take in '64?
S: Bryant was extremely concerned about maintainingApeace-and-e oder in

St. Augustine, even though he was a states rights and believed in

state's rights which had been the populists' concept from before the

War between the States until and in some sections of the south

_. He had felt that interposition was still a

valid defense. However, he did not do anything in my opinion to,

let's put it this way, he did everything and that he could under the

power that was vested in him by being governor to protect the first

amendment rights of marchers even though he may not have been


I: How did he and you respond to Simpson's decision to permit the night


S: Well, I was requested to fly to Tallahassee that night y. ,

,A Jor that afternoon and I did and we met there with Jimmy Ktnes

and Joe Jacobs and I can't recall who else was present, I think

Harrison, one of the governor's personal attorneys from Jacksonville

was present at that time. In 1963, I had done an exhaustive research

on this subject, the first amendment rights and when they may be

suspended and when they may not be suspended and I took the position

that there was no way that we could justify the suspension of these

rights unless we could show that there was irreparable, you know,

injury and arm that was going to resolve that right to go there. You

can't suspend a person of their rights. Your job is to protect those

rights. You are the one to, you can't say look though, we don't have

enough men. You have the whole state of Florida. You know, you have

to do everything you can to, but if you are confronted with an emergency

Page 10


situation, that's the only way it can be done. And then you must be

in the position to show to the court that there were no other alterna-

tives. And of course that was my margin that at this particular moment,

we could not guarantee the safety of the marchers. And we had to divert,

we didn't divert their, we only diverted their route through the old

section of the city. We permitted them to follow their route right

through the predominately white neighborhood in the night time. We

made no changes in that route at all with the exception that we

would not let them go to the old portion of the city. And I feel that

that was a wise decision. I had no, and the proof of it is that Judge

Simpson never did issue the order of

I: But the night marches continued even though they didn't go through the

old section.

S: Right, sure. I think Andy Young expressed it to me, you know, his

concern, was the same concern that I had. And he told me about it.

He said that they were concerned about it but didn't know how they

could justify it.

I: What about this biracial commission a Governor Bryant appointed that

never met?

S: Never got off the ground. Well, if I could tell you what happened IL 'IH

the Grand Jury, I could tell you how that thing came about. But I

really can't. During the contempt citation hearing in Jacksonville,

I had, the governorjasked me to give him a call after I testified because

weAagreed after our meeting in Tallahassee that I wouldifS carry the

burden of testifying on behalf of the governor as to what _il_

we had taken to protect these rights. Why we had momentarily suspended

that right J'CLg I' the route that they wanted to take. And I

did testify to that fact before Judge Simpson. I told him, I said,

Page 11

CRSTA 5A ctm

I'll never forget it. It was late at night.lWhen finally

finished his cross examination of me, Judge Simpson said I could

step down and I said, well your honor, I feel that I haven't been

permitted to testify to certain facts that I feel are material.

Simpson just rared back in his chair and he looked at me and said

alright Mr. Warren, go right ahead. And I said your honor I don't

care if you utilize the entire power of the United States government

and call out the 1P Airborne and get all the marchers you

wanted to but next martial law, you can't 4 sue for the safety of

those children marching through danger in parts of the city at night-

time. And I said I've got six children myself and I don't want the blood of any

one of those children on my hands. And old Simpson rared back in his
VIe hc,
chair and/looked at me andAsaid thanks Mr. Warren. That's what's been

bothering me. He said that.

I: /as the/biracial committee, I know you can't again go into this grand

jury testimony but was it a serious thing or was it just sort of a

Bryant's way of getting King out of there and...

S: Well, it was compromise. It wasn't Bryant's way A getA14 King out

of there. It was King's way to get out. King wanted out of tthe-eai-

offe. We had this meeting with King. I met with him and I'm trying

to see the date, I think it was the 18th, I'm not sure, I'm almost
'A; LkCL
sure,Aeither the 18th or the 19th. It would have been the 19th because

he rejected the Grand Jury proposal. And I was sitting in the f4 oto

h-e- having a cup of coffee with George Allan. And a UPI reporter

approached me and said Mr. Warren, I'm an envoy from r. King W e

would like to meet with you privately off the record, if you would

agree. And I told him that I would agree to meet with him any place,

Page 12


any time, he said on the record. And it was agreed that we would

meet at Dfq )V office. You see, before this there had been

no meeting of what we would call up until this time because

of the pressure that was put on the community. And George Allan and

I went out and we met with Doctor King and Reverend Abernathy was there,

and Dr. was there, I think Rev. l, was there, but

I'm not sure and I'm not sure about Andy Young. I don't know 4 he

was there or not. I just can't recall. But in any event, Dr. King
started off the meetingymore or less. He said Warren, you don't realize a..

Sthe situation at hand. I'm not here to destroy America, I'm here to

keep America from being destroyed. He said there are those in the

Civil Rights Movement .-ta want to burn America down.

(Tape Side 2)

,,,marching, demonstrating for thirty days. And he said what assurances

and he said after thirty days of peace and quiet, on the biracial

commission, what assurances do I have that there isn't going to be

some other group like the Black Panthers, some other group that wants

to burn America down, from coming in, seizing the situation and then

we have lost everything that we hoped to achieve and I said to him

as I recall, that he didn't need to preach to ne. And I didn't do it

in a sarcastic way but in an understanding way, I had been, I had

gone to a Quaker College off I had been involved in the first attempt

to integrate the social services of Greensboro, North Carolina back in

1947. I was a history major and also had a minor in sociology and this

was a project of the Quakers, to integrate the social services. The

only reason that they weren't integrated is because they had largely

dinner meetings and they said there was no place for blacks and whites

could eat together in Greensboro. And I told him this. I said that I

Page 13







am in sympathy with what you are doing. And I said that I cannot, you o'kV(

have-out-o=pckt, rejected the grand jury's '.. ... '-The

foreman had already made the statement that they would not. You've got

to just visually put yourself in that grand jury to understand the

situation that I was in and even attempt to beget a biracial commission.

I cannot go into it and I won't go into what happened in the grand

jury. You've got to understand tVs what the situation must have been

and even to get this far, I felt was a major, you know, a major

effort. I had not considered what he had told me although I readily

realized that that was the situation. So ultimately, I told Bryant

that when we were in contempt hearings that this was the issue

and I told him the situation. AI did not tell him about -te meeting

with King or what King said but I did tell him that there were emissaries

here from Boston University speaking for King, Dr. De Wolf, Harold

DeWolf, who had been King's (AVK at Boston University,

came to me and wanted me to help-ham aId ______ how I got to

Boston. He wanted me to help see if we could get the governor

qijI )# on this biracial commission.

but King told me in Purer's office that I want out of
a\ to~etS a4j2
St. Augustine but I cannot go out of here will not go out of here.

Was he, was the president putting much pressure on Governor Bryant?

Purlkr? Oh, you mean ....

President Johnson.
Johnson. I'm really not in the position to say. I wouldn't be a

bit surprised because there was a moratorium as you remember, ,-ti. ... -5a C

great debate among the black community after the passing of the civil

rights act whether or not there would be a moratorium on these

marches. And Johnson as I recall, called for a moratorium. And

Page 14

CTM Page 15

King agreed and did have a moratorium. And there was dissent among

the black community that know they shouldn't do that.

I: Was there a feeling by you that King was trying to use St. Augustine

to insure passage of the civil rights bill?

S: Oh, sure. In retrospect, there is no question that that was the purpose.

The weapon he used was not the marches. The weapon he used was the

first amendment.

I: Right. What about after the demonstrations were over and the civil

rights act had been passed, did conditions return to normal in St.


S: Not immediately. In fact there was of course, efforts to make sure

that the law was being complied with the sporatic demonstrations,

S primarily by A and his group, marching up and down in

front of the restaurants that4didftt serve blacks. And then, when the

pressure was put on Hoffstead and Lynch and the rest of them, it

pretty well folded. You can't believe today what it was then.

I: How about in the white community? Did you receive any particular

support from anybody specifically in the white community?

S: Yes, I did There-were two individuals, three individuals which I will

be eternally grateful to. The first of course is Judge Harold Melton.
He, WAh
This man is a tremendous individual. ,lWhen I called him and asked him

if we could immediately reconvene the grand jury and would he make the

order broad enough to, so that we could have some leeway, he readily

agreed to it. He assisted in every way he possibly could. AWben it

got to the point when I was trying to find five whites that would serve

with five blacks and itwas acceptable to both those sides, he set up

an appointment for me to talk to Mr. Wolf, a very fine gentleman that I

feel did his utmost. The fact is, I went to see him and I never will



forget, he sat down and he offered me a glass of tea and I told him

what my problem was. He readily agreed to assist by having five, )Y Q

nopiMis..rmade t-l h ihE lved whites who would agree to serve. And

of course, we had difficulty over the blacks, agreement as to which

five would serve. I can't go into that grand jury thing because, I

wish I could. It was/interesting The story will never be told unless
C0t6AC. \'.C
that grand jury silence of the grand jury opened up. I am committed

to silence.

I: Who was the third ?

S: It would be(plyPope.

I: \&rl/Pope. Right.

S: \fr]ePope was one of the spokesmen for the business community who

issued a very mild statement to the effect that if the civil rights

act/passed that we as law-abiding citizens will abide by the civil

rights act. And the next day, he had all of his, the windows in his

office broken out. And anybody that expressed, we had a death threat

against and and myself as wildlife officer that he had in-

filtrated the Klan meeting retaliation against both

our families. We, I live in Daytona and we had guards posted on the

roof of our house. I live right on the ocean, you know. We had

police cars for quite a while.

I: Judge Melton/Ifor a second What....
iec wa-"j o-
S: U circuit Judge.

I: Circuit Judge.

S:" Resident of St. Augustine.

I: OK. And he was the one who helped you handle the grand jury.

S: Right. And also to, when I went to him to explain my problem, he

immediately set up an appointment with Mr. Wolf...

Page 16


I: Yes

S: And Mr. Wolf readily agreed that he would be happy to do it. He was

highly chagrinned over St. Augustine getting the reputation

_spokesman for the community to work for an

old man at thattime. /But he did everything that he could to...

I: Well, I thank you. It's been really helpful.

S: Well, I wish we could talk further, I have written about (buzz)

Jordon acted directly under the orders of Governor

Bryant. He said well you are the man I want to see.

_. And he said no, you don't understand. I said you

are properly attired, there is nothing stopping you. He said well,

there is something stopping me. I said, what's that. He said there

are hoodlums out on the beach that won't let us go swimming. And I

kind of smiled and I said, yVu;V\ you and I speak the same

language. And let me ask you this, will you cooperate4by giving us

a time to post troops out here and I assure you that you will go

swimming all you want to. He said and kind of laughed, he said how

much time do you want? Will you give us an hour, I believe I said.

He said yes. Alright, we will have troops out there and that's when
Joe Jacobs and I dictated that first order _.

I saw Vivian later on in Washington, oh let me tell you one other

interesting thing. I saw Vivian later on at some other hearing on the

Ku Klux Klan taking place in _

in fact that was the night that we had dinner with Governor Bryant

/ But in any event, there was one

other incident after this was over. Andy Young came by to see me

and I had just finished a book called, entitled

Page 17


S Of Warriors, written by James Murphy. It was about two

Russians. And so I said Mr. Young, I want to give you a book but

before I do, I want to put an inscription in it. And I wrote in

it to Andy Young. When the history of the civil rights

movement has been concluded, the name Andrew Young will be listed

as an ambassador to peace and I signed it.

I: By the way, did you find Simpson at all biased? Biased toward Kunstler

and Simon?

S: Biased toward them?

I: Yes.

S: No, no. I felt that Simpson, the fact is that hadn't been for Toby

Simon, _would have been in jail for contempt. We had a

situation arose during the hearing in which law enforcement officers

said that he had been attacked by one of the demonstrators at the

beaches at St. Augustine and his shirt had been torn. And Judge

Simpson stopped him and said do you still have that shirt. And he

said, where is it. And he said, it is in my home. Where is your

home? He said it's in Tampa. And he said where do you live in

Tampa? He said I'll call my wife and Judge Simpson said no. Get

Mr. Marshall to take this man not into custody, but I don't want him

using the telephone. Send two marshall to Tampa to pick up that

shirt. Well, then the young officer came to us and said he had lied.

Of course, we had to immediately advise Judge Simpson at that time.

We all went into Judge Simpson)chamber an

officer would lie about a fact like that. Then Toby spoke up. I

Page 18

CRSTA 5A CTM Page 19

never will forget. He said, Judge, you must understand the pressure

on these officers.

Florida Highway Patrol. And he more or less implored Simpson not to

you know, hold him in contempt. So, no, .-w d answer your question)
noI did not find that he was biased to /jlt < I think

that he was, Simpson was a strict disciplinarian in that court. He

_the truth. The motto over hisl)eat-, cv-quote, a Latin

phrase which was or something like that. And it

was fiat is a writ that the Romans, the Roman emperors would issue'

to dispense justice throughout _. And he did just

that. He dispensed justice .

I: I suppose it was rather unusual to encounter a judge who actually

questioned, began questioning people on the stand?

S: No, that's not unusual in the federal courts. No, that's not unusual

at all. They have the power to do that. The state judges have that

power. You have to exercise it very carefully when you are before a

jury because the jury may get the implication that the judge is leaning

one way or another and he must remain impartial. But you see, here

this is not a jury decision but a/direct criminal contempt proceeding.

It would have been a jury trial now but at that time, the law was to

the effect that the judge had that power. Now, it is changed

for more than six months. He must get a jury trial.

I: Well, is there anything that has been said that you wouldn't want me

to quote you on?

S: No, I don't think so.

I: OK. OKAI sure appreciate....

S: What I said, I have said before.

(end of tape)

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