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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
TELL THE STORY
BERNICE SAWYER
August 25, 1997
(Ms. Stephanie Wanza): This is Stephanie Wanza, I am at the
home of Mr. and Mrs. Bill and Bernice Sawyer. Today's date is
August 25, 1997. This is Side #1 of Tape #1.
This is Stephanie Wanza and I'm interviewing Mrs. Bernice
Sawyer. How are you doing today Mrs. Sawyer?
(Mrs. Bernice Sawyer): Just fine, how are you?
(Ms. Wanza): Fine. Okay umm we are going to begin on as set
of questions regarding family life. The first question is, where
were your parents born?
was
(Mrs. Sawyer): My parents were born in the Bahamas. One was
born Roxianne, Eleuthera and the other one in South End Long
Island. (Ms. Wanza): Okay, did your parents ever live in
Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yes, in fact ah we bought the lot that they,
that they met...it was a grocery store and they met in the store so
eventually when I married my husband, the property was for sale and
we bought it.
(Ms. Wanza): What years did they live in Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, it must have been...
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, I was asking what years did your parents
live in Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): They lived there all, all of my life until my
mother died.
(Ms. Wanza): So around what year was that?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well I think the...my daddy here
in 1908 or something and would commute back and forth...
(Ms. Wanza): In 18...?
(Mrs. Sawyer): 1908.
(Ms. Wanza): 19, 1908, okay.
(Mrs. Sawyer): And then ah I was born in 1921 and my parents
married two years prior to that time so they must have gotten
married in 1918 no 1919.
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum, so they, they were here from 1921 up
until...
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, they were here before that, my father was
here very early.
(Ms. Wanza): So from 19, 1908...
(Mrs. Sawyer): Un hun. Ah daddy ah helped to build the
Panama Canal and when that was complete he went to Mexico, from
Mexico he went to Dania where my uncle was who was working with ah,
ah, you know what that man, the railroad man?
(Ms. Wanza): Flagler?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah, and he worked with him all his life and
ah, then Daddy lived in Dania and came to Miami, he wanted to
go...he had bought property in Dania but Mama didn't want to live
in Dania so he started living down here.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, so he was here from 1908, 'til, until he
passed?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah.
(Ms. Wanza): And what year did he past?
(Mrs. Sawyer): In 19...in 1960...when was that Bill, 1969?
(Mr. Sawyer): I think it was '69.
(Ms. Wanza): From 1908 until 1969, okay. What sort of jobs
did your parents have?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well my mother was a teacher and then when I
was born, he made her stop working and umm he worked, he was a
surveyor and a land and he help to build roads in
Nine Hawk Dynamo, Modella and all...the Redlands and
place like that he, would go and build them and he always said
Second Avenue was the best built road in Miami at that time, which
was made of cement and not ah asphalt like the other roads and
they'd all...in later on, in later years he worked from the Ronie
Plaza.
(Ms. Wanza): At the...?
(Mrs. Sawyer): At the Ronie Plaza Hotel.
(Ms. Wanza): Ronie Plaza?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ronie Plaza Hotel on Miami Beach.
(Ms. Wanza): Oh, okay. Umm let me see, where were your
grandparents born?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, my grandparents were...my mother's parents
were born in Eleuthera and my grandfather was born in South End,
Long Island also.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, what sort of jobs did they have?
(Mrs. Sawyer): My grand daddy was in government, my father's
daddy and so was my mother's grandfather, he was the magistrate for
the whole island of Eleuthera.
(Ms. Wanza): And your grandmothers, did they work or were
they house...?
(Mrs. Sawyer): They were housewives.
(Ms. Wanza): Housewives, okay.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, umm did your grandparents ever live in
Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): No, just to visit.
(Ms. Wanza): Just to visit, okay.
(Mrs. Sawyer): My grandparents...
(Ms. Wanza): Could you describe what it was like growing up
in your parents' household?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well, yes it was nice because a lot of
children lived, you know in the neighborhood and you had a lot fun
playing with ah...you weren't...you could go from gate to gate if
your parents weren't home but if they were home in the afternoons,
we always met a the Newbold's house. Mrs. Newbold had a lot of
children and I was so jealous because they had sisters and brothers
and I didn't have anybody, you know...and ah, but ah she was a
wonderful person and she was a mother to everybody and we all
enjoyed going to her house, it was always very, very pleasant.
(Ms. Wanza): The next set of questions are regarding
employment between 1945 and 1970, could you describe the types of
jobs you had during that time?
(Mrs. Sawyer): It was 1940?
(Ms. Wanza): '45.
(Mrs. Sawyer): 1945 I worked in the government ah, for 4
years and the navy department, I worked with ah research and
clerical and Johnny Carmichael and they were dealing with atomic
research and in my department we had about 6 scientist so it was
very, very interesting, you know meeting those people and observing
their work habits and their dedication to what finally became, they
called it then Operations Crossroad but we didn't know, we just had
to be sworn in confidentially and later on we found out it was
atomic research that we were working on.
(Ms. Wanza): And from, from that job what job did you go to?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well when the war was over, I came to North
Carolina and I began working as a teacher and ah father became ill
so I had to come to Miami and got a job teaching here and worked
there until 19, 1983 was when I retired.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, you retired as a...you were a teacher?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm hum.
(Ms. Wanza): Let me see, what kind of hours did you work?
(Mrs. Sawyer): When I worked in the navy, we worked everyday
because it was a terrible war and everyone was just more or less
dedicated and we worked on Sundays too and we had a lot of wealthy
who worked there, a dollar a year girls and they worked too, just
like we did for a salary and everyone was trying to win the war to
enable their loved ones to come home.
(Ms. Wanza): And when you were teaching, what hours did you
work? Regular teaching hours?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Regular teaching hours.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay so like from 7 to 3, 8 to 3?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Longer than that because I had...there was a
time I was having school, I was in charge of schools and
(Ms. Wanza): So it would be, what, what would your hours be?
(Mrs. Sawyer): The regular working hours and then on.
(Ms. Wanza): When from 9 to 5?
(Mrs. Sawyer): No, we worked, I think, I don't think it was
8 or 8:30, something like that to school and then after
school ah you'd work like, you know some days I'd have to stay to
work on the newspaper, my students helped.
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum, okay. How did you find your jobs?
(Mrs. Sawyer): I was suppose to work at Shaw University and
then ah I was looking for a better paying job so the NYA was paying
more than Shaw so I went there and I got there I didn't like it so
I went downtown, took another test, I past that and I went to
Washington.
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum. You had the job with the navy in
Washington?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah, It was very, very
exciting, you know. It was an education in itself.
(Ms. Wanza): When you were teaching down here did you teach
in a school in Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): No, I worked in Goulds and then I went to
Carver. I worked at Carver and after I went to Carver, I went to
the Beach. I hadn't planned to come home and so, when I came it
was almost time for school to open so that was the only available
job and I didn't know how I vas going to get down there because I
didn't have car and I didn't even know how to drive but
arrangements were made and I got to the place where I really liked
it there. Children were so beautiful then. Carver's children were
nice to.
(Ms. Wanza): How did you get to work?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well I finally learned how to drive and
me a car.
(Ms. Wanza): So you drove to work?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm hum.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, and prior to, prior to that?
(Ms. Wanza): I ah, we went by car.
(Ms. Wanza): Oh, okay.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Because ah see Goulds is a long ways from
Miami then. There was just a two, two lane highway. But I had
these friends who worked in the same place.
(Ms. Wanza): Where did the other members of your family work?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, it was just my father. My uncle was
carpenter and he worked...in fact a lot of members of my family,
male members were carpenters and they worked for themselves.
(Ms. Wanza): Beginning in the late '50s many immigrants moved
to Miami from the Caribbean including Cuba, Haiti and other
countries. Did those immigrants competed with Overtown residents
for jobs? Do you believe they competed with them?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm at first no but then finally, Yes ma'am.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay. Do you recall people moving into the
Overtown from out of town?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yes. A lot of people came here from Georgia
and North Carolina, other places. Ah Overtown at one time grew by
leaps and bounds and ah this particular area was the center of
everything as far as entertainment was concerned and then they
began to build more churches and eventually some people ah, Mr.
Kelly would sell lots very cheaply and they would buy those lots
and then save enough money to build a home in Liberty City and
places like that. That were a few people in Liberty City all the
time like the Greens and some other old timers but for the most
part, the people migrated from Miami into the Liberty City area in
later years.
(Ms. Wanza): Where did the umm people who came from outside
of Overtown live in Overtown? Was there a specific area in
Overtown where they lived?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well they...no it was in the area because you
know you had your Negro area, you couldn't live in the White
section then so they would live wherever they could find a place to
live. Some of them would build homes.
(Ms. Wanza): What sort of jobs did they have?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well some of the worked on the railroad.
Some...a lot of the women did domestic work and ah, other jobs like
Lgi...in industries where there were industries they had
but a lot of them worked on Miami Beach too because see you had to
make that "Season" because in the summer there wasn't very much
worK In Miami so usually during the winter months ah you worked two
jobs and then in the summer, you would be able to live.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, the next set of questions are regarding
business ownership. What kind of business did you and Mr. Sawyer
own?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well, ah, you mean when I married Bill?
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Bill had ah two nightclubs, he had the hotel,
he
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, I see. Where was the business located?
(Mrs. Sawyer): On Northwest Seventh Street and Second Avenue.
The hotel didn't even exist until ever since 1925 but he worked
with his father and umm they made an addition to the hotel so that
it became the largest Negro owned hotel in the South because the
hotel had 88 rooms. It was the first one with an elevator and
umm...
(Ms. Wanza): And was the name of the hotel?
(Mrs. Sawyer): The Mary Elizabeth.
(Ms. Wanza): Mary Elizabeth, okay.
(Mrs. Sawyer): And also he ah, we had talked about hotels not
having a water system to prevent fires, Dr. Sawyer had all of that
in his hotel. So, I remember once I went downtown and left my
daughter at home, she was a baby and the hotel was on fire, but
thank God nothing happened because that sprinkler system saved the
day, yeah.
(Ms. Wanza): Who were his employees?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Here?
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum at the hotel and at the, at the
nightclubs.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Who are my employees?
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm...Leonard, Leonard Taylor, wasn't it Bill?
(Mr. Sawyer): Umm hum.
(Mrs. Sawyer): He was an excellent bartender. Who was
Charles' last name?
(Mr. Sawyer): I don't remember Charles' last name.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, I had a picture. I had a picture, I wish
I could find it, of the hotel, it's a lot of people, they had
maids, ah, bartenders, barmaids.
(Ms. Wanza): How did you find your employees?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well my mother-in-law took care of that and
Bill because she...cause I wouldn't be in Bill's __ I
know they would they would have to references.
(Ms. Wanza): Who were your customers?
(Mrs. Sawyer): All of Miami. At that time, believe it or
not, you could walk anywhere you wanted to walk in Miami at night
and nobody bothered you and ah, my husband had a 5:00 o'clock
licenses and people on the Beach closed at 1:00 so when they
closed...and the, and the people who working on the Beach could not
live on Beach so they lived over here so when they came home, they
would come to the Mary Elizabeth and continuing partying there and
so we had customers from everywhere. They would come down to the
Mary Elizabeth. We never had any type of incident. The Whites
would be mingling with the Black and they would have fun, you know,
dancing and eating and just having a good time and nobody...there
was never an incident and so as a result of that relationship, I
was able to meet a lot of celebrities that I did not know before.
Ah Jackie Robinson lived here, Duke Ellington lived here, Joe
Louis. My glass is chiming, I sorry.
(Ms. Wanza): So you said Jackie Robinson, Duke Ellington and
who else?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Joe Louis.
(Ms. Wanza): Joe Louis.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm, all of them, Louie Armstrong
(Ms. Wanza): A lot of them, Louie Armstrong.
(Mrs. Sawyer): I didn't know who Louie Armstrong was and I
was just...I had just learned how to drive and I was trying to get
in the door, in the, in the gate and so he was right behind me and
I guess he was trying to wait and I was taking so long so then he
was tail ending me and I thought, you know, because he was right up
on me and I was afraid anyway, I hopped out the car and I said,
"can't you see I don't know how to drive and you keep tailing me."
So he said, he got out of car and bowed and said, "I'm sorry ma'am
and so I finally got the car in the gate and that night, my husband
had a habit of always calling down to meet celebrities, you know,
and so when I got in the office, there he was and I was so
embarrassed, we both had to laugh, you know, and he said well Bill,
all I can tell is this, she, she certainly knows how to fuss. So he
started calling me until he died, "Mom Sawyer."
(Ms. Wanza): Who was do you consider your main competition?
Who was your main competition in terms of business?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well, you know Bill was a funny man. He
believed that business added meant more business for everybody so
sometimes if the man at the Sir John didn't have enough chairs or
if he needed something Bill would let him have it and ah he got
along with all of them. It was a enough for everybody to share a
piece of the pie. He was never bitter towards any of them.
(Ms. Wanza): Did you ever move close to the businesses?
(Mrs. Sawyer): We had to live down there, we didn't have any
places, in inner places that's all. I moved down here and I lived
in a hotel. I didn't like it because where I lived it was still
country, 10:00 o'clock at night everybody was in the bed. On
Second Avenue, everybody was just getting started to have a good
time and I had to go to work the next morning, I...many nights I
sat up by the window crying because I couldn't sleep but then I got
use to it.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm was the location of the businesses every
changed?
(Mrs. Sawyer): No.
(Ms. Wanza): Alright. The next set of questions are
regarding neighborhood life between 1945 and 1970, could you
describe your place of residence?
(Mrs. Sawyer): 1945, ah well I lived at the hotel and it was
interesting to me because it was a different type of neighborhood
from the neighborhood I had been brought up in. Where I lived was
kind of folks in the country but here, you know, more like city
life and ah it was nice.
(Ms. Wanza): Who lived in your household?
(Mrs. Sawyer): We lived in a hotel and then ah later on...
(Ms. Wanza): But who, who was in the household, who lived
in...?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, my mother-in-law had her place and we
lived there, we had our place and ah...
(Ms. Wanza): So it was you, Mr. Sawyer...
(Mrs. Sawyer): ... and his mother.
(Ms. Wanza): And his mother, okay.
(Mrs. Sawyer): And later on when my daughter was born, she
was there. Then we built a place across the street, a motel across
the street and then when she was 3 years old, we moved over there.
(Ms. Wanza): Could you describe the street where you lived?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, it's where I am now, just across the
street, where the parking lot is, that was where our motel was.
(Ms. Wanza): Who were your neighbors?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, now...Mrs. Bessie Davis. She was Mrs.
Slader, Cecil Sweden, ah Mrs. Mitchell and that's about, I think
that's all it was from the second floor down you had people living
but see it was businesses there on Second Avenue.
(Ms. Wanza): Where did your neighbors work?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Mrs. Mitchell's husband had a cab company, she
was a house work. Mrs. Bessie Slader was a teacher and her husband
was an insurance man. Cecil was a businessman, he had his own
business. On the other side there were just storefronts, lawyer's
office, doctor's office and a haberdashery store, a grocery store,
a dry cleaning store.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, what happened to those neighbors?
(Mrs. Sawyer): They were all displaced when 1-95 came along.
Everybody had to move.
(Ms. Wanza): When did they leave?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, let me see, whenever, ah they came ah and
said they had X number of days to be out and gone and they had to
go.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, where did they go?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Various and sundry places, some of them did
not receive enough compensation for their businesses to start
again.
(Ms. Wanza): So what areas did they move?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Some of them moved to the Liberty area, some
of them did not go into business anymore and it was just a
devastation as far as this area is concerned.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay. Could you describe the main business
areas you went to in Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yes, you had, you know, Overtown was more or
less self-sufficient. You had a drugstore, you had a laundry mats,
you had, at that time, Miami Times was located down here. You had
grocery stores, you had ah ten cent stores, you had another
drugstore, you had doctors' offices, ah and a little hospital so it
was more or less self-sufficient. You didn't have to go downtown
if you didn't want to, you could find what you wanted right here in
this area. You had ah service station, we had the first service
station here on Eighth Street and Second Avenue in the area,
restaurants, all kinds of, Oh God, go to Cop Suey and get all
shrimp fried rice and an order of shrimp for a dollar, shrimp fried
rice for fifty cents (laughter).
(Ms. Wanza): (Laughter)... for one dollar.
(Mrs. Sawyer): For one dollar, I mean big shrimp too and
shrimp fried rice and the shrimp on the side.
(Ms. Wanza): That's good, could you describe where they
had...
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, they had bars too, all kinds of bars,
restaurants, had some small hotels.
(Ms. Wanza): Could you describe where your family bought
groceries?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Where did we buy...oh my father, was his
father, he had a grocery store and he believed in wholesale
groceries, he believed in buying in bulk so he usually shopped at
a wholesale house and then he would, you know, little things that
he wanted at the corner stores. The bulk things he bought from the
wholesale house that was a part of my...and I do that to this day.
(Ms. Wanza): Could you describe where your family went to the
barber shop or beauty shop?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm hum. We went to...daddy went to Mr. Smith
on Seventeenth Street and where was that by St. Anges Church. Bill
went to ah Teddy Parkers...ah what was his name Bill? Mr. Valdez,
he went to Mr. Valdez. Daddy always went to Mr. Smith.
(Ms. Wanza): And where did you go to the beauty shop?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well at that...you mean when I was growing up?
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum.
(Mrs. Sawyer): I didn't go to the beauty shop (laughter).
You know the first time I had my hair...ah went to the beauty shop?
When I was getting ready to graduate from high school (laughter)
and ah after that when I came back home to live, I went to I think
at that time I went to Mrs. Perry's beauty shop and that was where
I went and after that time when I came back home, I went to Opal
King.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, let me see...could you describe where your
family went to the drugstore?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, yeah, Economy drugstore.
(Ms. Wanza): Could you describe where your family went to the
cleaners?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, let's see, the man use to come by and pick
up the clothes. There was a dry cleaning place on Twentieth
Street, on Twentieth Street and Fifth Place there was a dry
cleaning place.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, could you describe the churches your
family attended?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm hun, we went to St. Agnes and ah the...St.
Mary's Wesleyan Church it was called.
(Ms. Wanza): Could you describe where you went for
entertainment such as theater's, bars, restaurants, (excuse me)
sporting events? Now I know you owned two nightclubs in the hotel,
did you mainly stay there or did you go to other...
(Mrs. Sawyer): No, I worked. I didn't really deal with them
and before that I wasn't at home but after I came home and I got
married, I...well I wouldn't have to go out for entertainment I
could work and have entertainment at the same time because all the
big bands would be there.
(Ms. Wanza): So you mainly went, you know, at the hotel they
had everything.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Sometimes they had a special show, you might
go to the Beach or something like that when it got to the place
where you could go like Sammy Davis or some them had a show
(Ms. Wanza): When someone in your family got sick where did
they go to the doctor's office?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Dr. Sawyer was my daddy's doctor. Dr. Chatman
was my mother's doctor, my doctor and ah, oh you had to go to
Christian Hospital, you didn't have any other place to go,
Christian Hospital.
(Ms. Wanza): How long did you continue to patronize the
businesses in Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): How long?
(Ms. Wanza): Un hun.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, we always patronized them.
(Ms. Wanza): Up until now?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah, yeah, whatever is there. What is here?
Nothing. I still shop at ah the one on Sixteenth Street.
(Ms. Wanza): The grocery store?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah,
(Ms. Wanza): Umm so, you never stopped shopping or going to
entertainment outside of Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): No.
(Ms. Wanza): No, okay.
(Ms. Wanza): During the period from 1945 to 1970 what were
the main things that made Overtown a community?
(Mrs. Sawyer): From?
(Ms. Wanza): 1945 to 1970 that made Overtown a community.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well at that time you had your hotels and your
restaurants and all the various businesses until you had the demise
of them and then gradually everybody had to go elsewhere. There
were riots.
(Ms. Wanza): Riots.
(Mrs. Sawyer): After the riots, that's really when things
went haywire.
(Ms. Wanza): How and when did that sense of community change?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well a lot of people began to look down on
Overtown after that time, they would always say, how can you live
down there and rear a child? And I told them I was rearing my
child in the street, I was rearing her in my home. So we continued
to live down here, we never did move. We just moved from the
hotel, you know across the street from the hotel. We never did
move until we had to move and we through the last to
leave and the first to come back. We came back
(Mr. Sawyer): we never did leave.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah, I told her we never did leave.
(Ms. Wanza): How has Overtown changed since 1970?
(Mrs. Sawyer): It has just gone down hill.
(Ms. Wanza): In what ways?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well, you don't have any businesses around to
amount to anything now and ah the sole survivors for the most part
have been ah the churches and ah people come to church on Sunday
and pack in the churches but for the most part, it's not like it
use to be.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay. The next set of questions are regarding
1-95. When and how did you first hear about the building of I-95?
(Mrs. Sawyer): When they...we received communication telling
us that ah we had to move and go elsewhere.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay.
(Mrs. Sawyer): So many people said they were not going to
move but they had to.
(Ms. V&bza): And when did you receive this?
(Mrs. Sawyer): That was in the '50s.
(Ms. Wanza): In the '50s, the late '50s?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm hum.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, where were you...
(Mrs. Sawyer): No it wasn't, it couldn't been in the late
'50s. It was about middle '50s.
(Ms. Wanza): Mid-50s?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm hum.
(Ms. Wanza): And where were you living at that time?
(Mrs. Sawyer): All, well at the time I was married and umm I
was living down here but my father was still in the home place, he
continued to live there until, you know, he had to move.
(Ms. Wanza): Did you rent or own the place where you lived at
that time?
(Mrs. Sawyer): We owned.
(Ms. Wanza): Owned, okay. What kind of a reaction was there
to the news that an expressway would come through Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Everybody felt very sadly about it cause you
see people had been there ever since they were young, they had
raised their children and they were comfortably situation in their
little homes and they had to be uprooted and placed in foreign
surroundings and they didn't like it at all but they couldn't do
anything about it so many of them you know, they had closed the
stores and everything and now they just had to go wherever they
could find a place and they didn't give them enough money to make
a down payment on anything else so they just had to do the best
they could. It was a sad time.
(Ms. Wanza): Did you discuss 1-95 with any of your neighbors?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah, everybody felt badly about it. (Ms.
Wanza): Did you attend a meeting where it was discussed or
sign a petition or discuss the issue with public officials?
(Ms. Wanza): Not at that time?
(Mrs. Sawyer): It just ah, I met once with Judge Cune and he
told me I had to go, take that offer, you might get less the next
time. I ah...
(Ms. Wanza): What was the most important impact of the
expressway on you?
(Mrs. Sawyer): I still, when I pass by...there are two
avocado pear trees that I planted in the yard and I always look
over there and say, there are my trees (laughter) they are still
standing, that part of it was not developed, it's just there and I
think that must be a fence between that part of Sixth Place where
some of the old timers still live. They didn't take Sixth Place
some of the old neighbors are still living there.
(Ms. Wanza): What was it like when the expressway was being
constructed?
(Mrs. Sawyer): I took my daddy out there one night, he wanted
to see the place, so we drove out there and then we went in the
neighbors yard on Sixth Place and then we could look over into our
yard and he said, they've destroyed the whole place (laughter), he
felt sadly about it too.
(Ms. Wanza): So what was it like when it was being
constructed, was it noisy or disruptive to the community or...
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well, we were all gone then, you know I, I
imagine it was noisy.
(Ms. Wanza): And where were you living?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Right down here.
(Ms. Wanza): Oh, okay.
(Mrs. Sawyer): See, they didn't, they didn't move...what they
did, I understand they were suppose to have moved this area first,
but they didn't do that, they started out on Twenty-First Terrace
and then they moved down to this area.
(Ms. Wanza): What did the community get from public officials
in return for 1-95 going through Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): They didn't get anything but a little bit
money that couldn't even help them in getting something else but ah
when they got ready to move down here, we had formed the...Ann
Maria Adker, living, she use to keep up with things and we went
from door to door and told all the people to come down to ah the
meeting that night, on Third Street and we did and we protested and
so they were getting to ready to build a housing center over here
on Fifth Avenue...Sixth Avenue and Fifth Street so we were able to
get a lot of the places over there for the people who had to move
from this area which was a blessing because it had been allocated
for housing and the people were not aware of it so we found out
about it and we got to...and they were able to go there and some of
them are still living there and living comfortably. It's a nice
project. On Fifth Street and Fifth Avenue, Fourth Avenue and I
think it goes from Fifty-Sixth Street, yes, Fourth Avenue and Fifth
Avenue so a lot of the people who lived in my building were able to
go there.
(Ms. Wanza): How did 1-95 affect the community as a whole?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well there is no business, you know, no
business, not many people to trade, very few businesses here. You
don't have as many consumers as you once had.
(Ms. Wanza): Alright, the next set of questions are regarding
moving because of 1-95. Okay umm the first question is when did
you decide to change your place of residence.
(Mrs. Sawyer): I was preparing to move and I had just made a
list of all the things I was going to take with me and put the
other things in storage and I had an automobile accident so I moved
to the hospital and I was there for about 6 months, my husband
still lived there and so he lived there until I got out of the
hospital and so that why I say we were the last to move and the
first to come back and ah when I came out the hospital then I had
to find...but everything, all my clothes and everything had been
stolen, (laughter) so when I came out of the hospital, I use to
call them my Salvation Army cloths because ah, they had to send to
my relatives and friends to get some clothes for me to come home,
I didn't have anything.
(Ms. Wanza): Well who, where, where were your clothes left?
(Mrs. Sawyer): In my, in my building and see my husband was
blind and those people had themselves a good time.
(Ms. Wanza): In the building and somebody came and...
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well, see my husband was blind and those
people had themselves a good time. I lost so much but that was
that, I started life out a new, thank God I'm still here.
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum, okay. Why do you think it was
appropriate to change your place of residence?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Because they thought they wanted it I guess.
They said it was for housing but nothing that much has been done
about it.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, to whom did you sell your property?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Sold it to the city.
(Ms. Wanza): Why did you decide to sell the property to the
city?
(Mrs. Sawyer): I had to. It was considered as being eminent
domain.
(Ms. Wanza): Were you fairly compensated?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Not really
(Ms. Wanza): How long were you given to pack up and leave?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, they had to give us more time because my
husband was blind and I was, I was in the hospital seriously ill,
in fact I was in a coma, so they were nice, they gave us time to
move.
(Ms. Wanza): So around about how much time?
(Mrs. Sawyer): About how much time, about a year? Yeah.
(Ms. Wanza): What happened to the property after you sold it?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm, where we were living was made into a
parking lot for the Arena.
(Ms. Wanza): Where did you relocate?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Across the street where I am now. This is our
property too.
(Ms. Wanza): How was your mortgage or rent in your new place
compared to your former residence and I know you said you owned the
other...?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well it's a different arrangement now, we, we
just bought a place over here, that's all.
(Ms. Wanza): How did your choose your new residence?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well, it was...found out that it was
available, and they were going to build on it so we, we decided
to...my husband never wanted to leave this area.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, alright, I'm going to end Side #1 of Tape
#1, this is Stephanie Wanza and I will be continuing on Side #2 of
Tape #1. I'm interviewing Mrs. Bernice Sawyer, I'm at her home.
Today's date is August 25, 1997.
TAPE #1 SIDE #2
(Ms. Wanza): This is Stephanie Wanza, I'm at the home of Mr.
and Mrs. Bernice Sawyer, Mr. and Mrs. Bill Sawyer and I'm
interviewing .laughter) Mrs. Bernice Sawyer. This is Side #2 of
Tape #1. Today's date is August 25, 1997.
We left off on a set of questions, umm, regarding moving
because of 1-95 and we are beginning on the set of questions umm
regarding whether or not the interviewee lived in a house or an
apartment taken by the state. So the first question is...taken or
taken up under eminent domain. What year did you move? Do you
remember?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, well we moved, given instructions to move
in 1986.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay.
(Mrs. Sawyer): But I went to the hospital in '86, so really
someone else had to...Bill when did you start living here? When I
got out of the hospital? It was have been '87. It was '87.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, who informed you that you had to move?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah the city officials. We filed a class
action suit and everything and it didn't do any good.
(Ms. Wanza): What were you paid for your home by the state?
(Mrs. Sawyer): I really don't know, now.
(Ms. Wanza): Were you fairly compensated?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, not really.
(Ms. Wanza): Not really, okay. How long were you given to
leave?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well actually I told you ah...
(Mrs. Wanza): About one year.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah, about a year.
(Ms. Wanza): Umm, did you receive any relocation money?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yes.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay and where did you re...
(Mrs. Sawyer): Where, for the properties down here?
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Because that's when I found out about it.
Before that, you didn't receive one cent out there on Twenty-First
Terrace where my father lived.
(Ms. Wanza): And where did you relocate?
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(Mrs. Sawyer): No.
(Ms. Wanza): No.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, did you discuss it with your neighbors?
(Mrs. Sawyer): No.
(Ms. Wanza): No, okay.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Umm, what the community able to get from
public officials 395 and 836 going through Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, the area in which I lived that was
affiliated with 395, they received a very, very minimal amount of
money, not even enough to get another house. Most of them went to
projects or they paid down along with some other help they might
have gotten some advantage to get another house.
(Ms. Wanza): How did 395 and 836 affect the community?
(Mrs. Sawyer): It raped it as far everything was concerned.
(Ms. Wanza): It ah really bought about the loss of negro
businesses. Some people never recovered, they just gave up.
(Ms. Wanza): The next set of questions are regarding public
housing. When and how did you first hear about the building of
public housing?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, well by that time we had ah formulated the
Overtown Advisory Board and Ann Marie Adker would attend all the
meetings and she was able to come back and keep us informed on what
was happening and so whenever she heard about anything that would
ah assist in the community, then she would inform us and then we
would try to get together and do something about it.
(Ms. Wanza): Who was this person? What was this person's
name?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ann Marie Adker.
(Ms. Wanza): (Sneeze), I'm sorry. Umm and do you remember
about what year you first heard about public housing?.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Like the public housing on Fifth Avenue?
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, Bill do you remember when that was, that
public housing, when we heard about it?
(Mr. Sawyer): I can't remember exactly.
(Mrs. Sawyer): But ah the people who lived in my building
were able to get it.
(Ms. Wanza): Un hun. So was it was it like in the '50s or
'60s?
(Mrs. Sawyer): It was in the '60s.
(Ms. Wanza): In the '60s, okay.
(Mrs. Sawyer): When you heard about it and they didn't do it,
you know it gradually came about. It was ah...they had to be sold
and then this was this...there was a class action
All of it took time.
(Ms. Wanza): Where were you living at that time?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Right across the street where the Arena
parking lot is now. We had a motel there.
(Ms. Wanza): Did you discuss, well what type of umm...let me
ask this question first. What kind of reaction was there to the
news that public housing would be built in Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well, they were glad to know that they would
have some place to go and umm, several others worked with the
people and got all the papers and everything that they needed and
they were able to get a nice place to live.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, did you discuss the issues with your
neighbors?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, yes and I tried my best to help people to
get what they were suppose to have and the neighbors were able to
get a little compensation, too, for moving expense which made it
nice.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay. Did you attend a meeting where it was
discussed or sign a petition or discuss the issue with public
officials?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh yes, oh yes.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, and umm, what, what came about?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well that's when they gave them compensation
for moving and most of them saw to it that these people who were
taken...whose homes had been taken, would abe allowed choice to
move into that project.
(Ms. Wanza): What was the most important impact of public
housing on you?
(Mrs. Sawyer): At the time those places looked so nice, I was
hoping I would be able to get in one but I wasn't. It was real
nice.
(Ms. Wanza): What was it like when public housing was being
constructed?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well, people who, you know had to make up
their minds to move and some of them did it with mixed emotions but
they were able to get into a nice place.
(Ms. Wanza): What was the community able to get from public
officials in return for public housing going through Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): What did they get from it?
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum, what did they get from it?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Let's see, how would I phrase that? I guess
they received some comments and applause for helping making it
possible for them to have a nice place to live and to be in a nice
clean area and they were asked to try to please help to keep it
that way and some of them have. I haven't notice it recently
because I don't get around much but at one time, they planted
flowers, they made it nice.
(Ms. Wanza): How did public housing (cough, excuse me) affect
the community?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well, in that particular area it seems to be
alright but in other places, in some areas, it has been abused and
ah...but in other places they try to keep it nice. I think the one
on Seventeenth Street is kept pretty nice, is it not? And they
have a park and they have swimming facility for the children and
it's nice.
(Ms. Wanza): The next set of questions will be regarding
Metro-rail. When and how did you first hear about the building of
Metro-rail?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah through the Overtown Advisory Board and
meetings that the city officials began to have
(Ms. Wanza): And do you remember around what year that was?
Was it in the '70s or '80s?
(Mrs. Sawyer): It must have been in the early '80s, I think,
I'm not sure.
(Ms. Wanza): Where were you living during that time?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Right here at the motel, on ah Seventh Street
and ah... Seventh Street and ah maybe Second, on Second Avenue.
(Ms. Wanza): What kind of reaction was there to the news that
Metro-rail would come through Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Some people didn't like it because they said
it would make it too noisy but ah they planted a lot of trees in
that area so it would serve as a prevention of noise making and ah
it's really a pretty area now. All those trees and other things
that they placed there served as buffers against the noise so it
doesn't bother me.
(Ms. Wanza): Did you discuss it with any of your neighbors?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yes.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, did attend a meeting where it was
discussed or sign a petition or discuss the issue with public
officials?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yes.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay and what came about in those meetings?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well it has been a Godsend to people who do
not have their own transportation and ah it's a convenience that's
enjoyed by many people.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay so I know you just told me that umm at
first a station was not planned to come through Overtown, how...
(Mrs. Sawyer): That was ah not to have an Overtown Station.
Yeah.
(Ms. Wanza): Not to have an Overtown Station, how...can you
explain that process. How did we come about getting...
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well it was discussed and ah finally the
Overtown Advisory Board and others helped to, helped them change
their minds about it. The decision was made to have it.
(Ms. Wanza): So it had to be through persuasion that the
station came into Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah, they didn't think that it would be
needed.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, let me see, umm what was the most
important impact of Metro-rail on you?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well it provided a, ah place of
beautification, it's nice.
(Ms. Wanza): Let me see, what was it like when Metro-rail was
being constructed?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Oh, hectic.
(Ms. Wanza): Hectic?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah.
(Ms. Wanza): In what way, well, you know everything is torn
up and everything is moved about and what have you.
(Ms. Wanza): What was the community able to get from public
officials in return for Metro-rail running through Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well those people who owned property in that
area were
(Ms. Wanza): How did Metro-rail affect the community as a
whole?
(Mrs. Sawyer): I think it has helped.
(Ms. Wanza): In what way?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well you have your buses and then you can get
to and from where you have to go in a short period of time and that
was especially good for the people who worked way down in the
southwest areas and what have you and I think you can get on a
Metro-rail and get there in about 10 or 15 minutes, can't you?
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum.
(Mrs. Sawyer): You avoid the delays of buses.
(Ms. Wanza): That's true. Okay the next and last set of
questions are regarding the future of Overtown. What are the most
important misconceptions about Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): So many things that we thought would happen in
this area have not happened and so most of us are disillusioned.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay, we were talking about the most important
misconceptions about Overtown.
(Mrs. Sawyer): Yeah, ah we thought by this time there would
have been more housing, facilities in the area and a lot of people
would have been able to ah come back, who wanted to come back and
we thought that there would have been more businesses because of
change but it hasn't been.
(Ms. Wanza): So what do you think were the most important
misconceptions, what people think is or...
(Mrs. Sawyer): People thoBght that they would be ah...have ah
housing and more businesses when they returned to the area but it
hasn't happened.
(Ms. Wanza): What do you think public officials need to know
most about Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Overtown has many problems that no one seems
to have any answers or solutions.
(Ms. Wanza): What should be done to the Overtown area now
such as transportation programs, attractions, job creation or
beautification programs to improve Overtown?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Job creation, beautification and homes.
(Ms. Wanza): Homes?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, homes that would allow them to purchase
because of government assistance because it seems as though when
you have something of your own, you have more of a desire to
preserve it and to keep it nice.
(Ms. Wanza): What should be the relationship between Overtown
and Downtown Miami?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Well downtown was always the hub for Overtown
after so many businesses were no longer in existence so let it be
the hub again.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay. When you have visitors from out of town
where do you take them the culture and history of Dade County's
African American community?
(Mrs. Sawyer): Ah, a lot of them go to the Archives, they go
to the Caleb Center, ah they go to the, you know they ride the
Metro-rail and ah they go the library downtown, they go to Miami
Beach and places like that.
(Ms. Wanza): Okay. Could you describe in your own words what
kind of community you would like for Overtown to be in the future?
(Mrs. Sawyer): More stressing of Negro culture and umm
appreciation of what Overtown once was and try to bring it back
like it was. Beautify it and something that would build self-
esteem that is dearly lacking now in the minds of many of children.
They feel as though, they live in Overtown they can't rise above
that ah...earmark and they, they don't feel secure, where ah...they
don't have the pride that we had. We ah, for instance, I remember
as a child going to school, they had what we knew as Armistice Day
and we'd have our little flags and we'd march down to the church,
it was just a basement then and our leaders would talk to us and
tell us things about life in general and what could be done to
improve you as an individual, we need more of that. There was more
of a togetherness then than we have now and ah, when they'd have
programs, everybody would come and they'd be nice and clean and all
dressed up and what have you and whatever. They had...they were
more sure of themselves than they are now.
(Ms. Wanza): Umm hum. Okay, so this is going to end our
interview. Umm this is Stephanie Wanza and I've just interviewed
Mrs. Bernice Sawyer. Today's date is August 25, 1997. This is
Side #2 of Tape #1. The interview session has now ended.
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