Title: Talmadge Fair
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Title: Talmadge Fair
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Publication Date: 1997
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Aoc/4oC-(D O5-T



TO TELL.THE STORY
T. WILLARD FAIR
August 28, 1997

(Mr. Devon Williams): This is Devon Williams. Today date is

August 28, 1997. I am interviewing Mr. T. Willard Fair at the

Urban League on the historical impact of transportation and

relocation on Overtown.

The first set of questions I'm going to be asking Mr. Willard

Fair is regarding family life.

First question: Where were your parents born?

(Mr. T. Willard Fair): My parents were born were born ah in

Charlotte, North Carolina and.Waynesboro, South Carolina, mother,

father respectively.

(Mr. Williams): Ah did they ever live in Overtown?

(Mr. Fair): No.

(Mr. Williams): Okay, the next set of questions I will be

asking Mr. T. Willard Fair are regarding employment from 1945 and

1970 and the -first question is ah describe jobs you, you had.

(Mr. Fair): I've always worked as the President and Chief

Executive Officer of the Urban League of Greater Miami for the past

32 years and approximately 3 months and the remaining portion of

that time I was working for the Urban League but in another

capacity.

(Knock on door and interruption.)

(Mr. Williams): Okay, we were talking about employment from

1945 to 1970 and you mentioned for the last 32 years...

(Mr. Fair): I've worked for the Urban League of Greater









Miami.

(Mr. Williams): Ah were was that job held?

(Mr. Fair): 395 Northwest First Street, right on the southern

fringe of Overtown.

(Mr. Williams): What years did you have that job?

(Mr. Fair): From 1963 up until now.

(Mr. Williams): What kind of hours did you work, do you work?

(Mr. Fair): Oh, about...between 60 and 70 hours a week back

in those days. Ah those days meaning from 1963 up until around

1975 and then from 1975 until now may be between 50 and 60 hours.

(Mr. Williams): When and why did you leave this job?

(Mr. Fair): Haven't left it, I'm still here.

(Mr. Williams): You never left it, you are still here.

(Mr. Fair): Yeah.

(Mr. Williams): How did you find work?

(Mr. Fair): Well I came here out of graduate school, in

response to a- vacancy that they had ah at the Urban League of

Greater Miami. I found it by making a visit to the local Urban

League in my home town, Winston-Salem.

(Mr. Williams): Where did the other members of your family

work?

(Mr. Fair): All my family members, mother and father worked

for R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company. Ah sisters and brothers worked

ah for the tobacco company and several of them were self-employed

with their own business.

(Mr. Williams): Okay, were any of those businesses ah











(Mr. Fair): No, all of my relationship to Overtown has not

been as a resident, has been as the head of an agency whose primary

constituency resided in Overtown and who, therefore, had an active

role of response to what happened in overtown vis-a-vis the coming

of the expressway and the Urban Renewal program. Ah when I came ah

to the Miami affiliate, one of the reasons why I took the job is

that the current president of the affiliate made it very clear to

me that things were changing nationwide in response to what had

happened in the civil rights movement and that as new jobs became

available ah the only two agencies in Black America that had

allowed Blacks to get any administrative experience was the YMCA

movement and the Urban League. He, therefore summarized correctly

that as those new jobs came available, the only persons in the

Black community that would not only have the degrees but

correspondingly some english and experience would be persons who

headed up those two institutions and, therefore, he predicted that

there would be a great migration at the top of many Blacks of the

first time going and leaving and taking those good jobs. He was

right because when I came here, in less than 6 months he left the

Urban League of Greater Miami to become the Deputy Director for the

Dade County Urban Renewal program and as a result of his leaving ah

I was promoted to be the President of the agency. Ah when Urban

Renewal and the expressway came through ah it began to impact on

the stability of Overtown prior to coming of Urban Renewal and the

expressway, the Negro Central District ah was that portion of Dade









County where over 70% of all the Blacks in Dade County lived. Ah

when you begin to have Urban Renewal ah and ah transportation

development of the system called 1-95, ah it displaced a lot of

families. The only place that they could go was northwest because

south and southwest was already occupied by the White community and

south east was occupied by the downtown business district called

downtown Miami. So the only undeveloped areas in the community was

northwest and as a result of that, Blacks who lived and worked and

owned businesses in the Negro Central District began to move. We

had the first contract from the Dade County Department of Urban

Renewal to assist them ah in the relocation efforts of the families

out of the Negro Central District called Overtown. We also had a

contract for what they called Citizenship Participation in the

'ftrban Renewal and Relocation process. We were very intimately

involved ah in working with the government and working with the

community ah to make sure that those persons who owned businesses

ah got fair treatment in terms of relocation costs, make sure those

families who had to sell ah also got fair market value for their

homes and many since they go more than the homes were worth but

simply because of the fact that Urban Renewal was coming, the

government was able to pay a higher price ah for the properties so

that was our intimate involvement in the activities of Overtown.

(Mr. Williams): Do you think they were fairly compensated?

(Mr. Fair): Oh! Without a doubt. With a doubt, yes. Ah as

I said some were overly compensated ah but they were in the cat

bird's seat, they had property that was in the right-away ah the









Black community was already upset about it becoming "Negro removal"

and as a result they were a little leery about eminent domain and

when the folks said they would give me 2,000 more, they really

didn't argue about it.

(Mr. Williams): Okay. Being as you were a community based

organization over there, maybe you can answer this question.

(Mr. Fair): Umm hum.

(Mr. Williams): Beginning in the late 1950's many immigrants

moved to Miami from the Caribbean including Cuba, Haiti and other

countries. Did those immigrants compete with Overtown residents

for jobs?

(Mr. Fair): 1950's no. Ah the immigrants who came in the

'50s ah from Haiti or from the Bahamas or even the few that may

have come Cuba, first of all they were not the poor immigrants.

They were immigrants who had already the capacity to be competitive

in a labor market and as a result they didn't stop in Overtown, ah

they have come through Miami but when on to Chicago and New York

and other places and that is evident by the fact that when you look

at the number of, quote, middle class successful immigrants in this

town with exception of the Cubans, especially the Haitians ah it is

persons who have been in this country 15 to 20 years who have

migrated to Chicago, New York, Philadelphia and other places north

who now see another market of their own in this community and have

migrated back down here in this community. So you didn't see ah a

significant number of the poor people from Haiti or from Jamaica or

from Nassau or from Cuba ah at all, not in the '50s. You began to









see that real exodus in the later part of the '60s.

(Mr. Williams): Do you recall people moving into the area

from out of town?

(Mr. Fair): In the initial part of the '50s and the '60s, if

you came to Miami as a Black person very...that was place that you

stayed, you know, once again that was the Negro Central District

and that's where you lived when you came to Miami as things began

to be dismantled in response to integration, ah then the outward

migration from Overtown began to be visibly accordingly so when you

look at Overtown in the '50 up until probably the latter part of

the '60s, ah you stayed in Overtown or in proximity thereto.

(Mr. Williams): What sorts of jobs did they have? Those

people coming in.

S (Mr. Fair): Service related jobs. Umm hotels, motels, maids,

bartenders, waiters, ah pullman car porters, umm those were the

bulk of the jobs because this is a tourist industry ah and so you

had those gaps. You had the service jobs and then you had those

Black professionals who primarily were teachers who worked in the

Colored schools ah and then you had another layer called doctors,

lawyers, preachers and funeral home directors but the bulk of the

people were related to some kind of service job. Most of the women

were maids, most of the men were involved as waiters ah as lawn

maintenance men or some other kind of service job.

(Mr. Williams): The next set of questions I will be asking

Mr. T. Willard Fair are concerning the organization for which you

work for. Ah the Urban League. My first question is what kind of








organization was it?

(Mr. Fair): Social service agency, ah defined with the

express purpose of working with ah Dade County's disadvantaged

population called the Negro community to improve their quality of

life, ah focusing on the quality of life indices calls housing,

education, employment, health, welfare.

(Mr. Williams): Where was the organization located?

(Mr. Fair): 395 Northwest First Street. Ah when I came here,

founded in 1943 ah operated out of the basement of Mt. Zion Baptist

Church for many years, ah located on Third Avenue and about Seventh

Street.

(Mr. Williams): Who were your clients?

(Mr. Fair): Primarily the unemployed persons in Overtown, ah

-the children who attended Booker T. Washington ah Senior High

School, ah corporate Miami in terms of providing job opportunities

for that particular community.

(Mr. Williams): And who were your employees

(Mr. Fair): My employee at that time were actually two

people, secretary ah and an associate director for employment. Ah

as we left Overtown, moved...probably left Overtown to come to

Liberty City, we probably had about 25 people on our staff.

(Mr. Williams): When and why did you move the organization?

(Mr. Fair): Because the people that we were serving had to

move.

(Mr. Williams): Where did you relocate to?

(Mr. Fair): We relocated at 7800 Northwest Seventh Avenue.








(Mr. Williams): How successful was your relocation?

(Mr. Fair): We went from a staff of 25 to a staff of 500, a

budget of less than ah $500,000 to a budget of almost $5,000,000.

Pretty successful.

(Mr. Williams): The next set of questions are going to be

regarding 1-95. When and how did you first hear about the building

of I-95?

(Mr. Fair): I don't recall ah when or how. Ah clearly given

our mission, I'm pretty sure that we would be one of the first

agencies ah to be involved and notified of it but if I recall, I

heard about it for the first time when I got interviewed to get my

job, that was in 1963.

(Mr. Williams): Umm do you remember what kind of reaction was

-there to the news that the expressway would come through Overtown?

(Mr. Fair): No, I don't.

(Mr. Williams): The next set of questions I will be asking

you are regarding public housing. The first question: When and

how did you first hear about the building of public housing?

(Mr. Fair): I built the first public housing in Overtown in

1972. Ah approximately 300 units called Town Park Village, North

and South. I'm very proud of that, that's one of the things that

I want to always remember about my contributions ah to this

community. Ah it was the first new public housing and in the area

that was significant because it was new construction. Ah it

provided 300 plus units of affordable decent housing for some

families who did not have the ability to relocate to into single









family homes because they simply were not available in the Liberty

City community and as a result it would have created some other

kinds of unacceptable living conditions of people doubling up with

parent members, children sleeping 3 and 4 to a room, etc. So we

did provide decent, affordable, safe housing intercoursing the

needs of the families that we were serving. The very most

important thing though is that we built it ah with an all Black

labor force. Ah and back in those days, we were not talking about

set asides or treatment, ah we simply decided that,

that's what we were going to do so I had a Black general contractor

that I recruited out of Jacksonville, everybody told me I couldn't

find a Black general contractor, that I was going to have find a

'White general contractor. I did it with a Black general

contractor. I organized the Minority of Contractors Association,

I poured together minority contractors, Black contractors all over

state, here in this community and based out of that organization

80% of all of, the major mechanicals, that carpentry, electrician

and plumbing went to Blacks. Ah I built a viable Minority

Contractors Asspciation and we began to do millions of dollars

worth of work simply because we did that job on time, within budget

with an all Black contracting force in 1972. Twenty-five years

ago.

(Mr. Williams): Okay the next question, still is regarding

public housing, ah what was the community able to get from public

officials in return for public housing going through Overtown?

(Mr. Fair): Well I don't think the community was able to get









anything from public officials. That was not negotiable ah the

decision had been made, that is that we are going to be part of the

mammoth, nationwide connecting program called building expressways

and it was happening all over the country so it was not just

happening in Miami, ah here was federal money in the Department of

Transportation, ah and big time cities were able to apply for that

money and begin to build the systems in cooperation with the state

and with the federal government so it was not something that the

citizens could say well ah, if y'all do this for us, ah we will let

y'all come through. What we attempted to do once again was to make

sure that as, we as a community responded to ah the need for us to

develop an expressway system. You know and that's, that's part of

-progress. It has nothing to do with Blackness or poverty or

location. It just so happens that once again, what it speaks to is

the mistake that the system made in terms of practicing racism

because what happens is that the core of all major cities, Harlem

in New York,-okay, Buttermilk Bottom in Atlanta and Albany Street

in Atlanta all of those centers are less than a half mile from the

heart of the city which is called the downtown. What White people

did was, is they let all of their service help stay close to

downtown and then they leap frogged over them out to the suburbia

area away from downtown so when you got ready to connect up a

system, the system has got to take you to some place and that some

place is the heart of the city and that's in Chicago, that's in New

York, that's in L.A. and that's where Black folks are. So had they

not been racists when it came time to build the system, the same









kind of relocation problems that were...we had in Overtown, those

would have been perpetrated on White people whoever was living

close to downtown, that's the difference in the whole process, you

know and we have to look at in that context so it wasn't about

race, it was about where you were located because of race. When it

expedient and in the best interest of the larger community to build

its connective system called highways and byways and roadways at

this whole point. So I mean that's an important piece of analysis

that we ought to keep in focus as we talk about Overtown.

(Mr. Williams): So then in essence you're saying that it

wasn't really a coincidence that in most of these major ah cities,

including Miami, the highways and byways or the connecting pieces

-just so happened to be close to these Black ah....

(Mr. Fair): And that was just, once again, that was a by-

product of racism. Okay, ah but if, once again, if you get ready

to connect up your system for goods and services, your commerce is

here, your commerce is downtown, okay. That's where your commerce

is. So if you are talking about a system, now you want this system

to take you either to your commerce or take your goods to where

they need to be and the goods is either to your airport or to your

rail system. Back in those days it was primarily your rail system.

So we lived in those cores because of racism and that's how we got

impacted, not because they were trying to get rid of us but we

stood in the way of progress, basically what they have done to us,

prior to the appropriateness of the progress.

(Mr. Williams): Overall, how did public housing affect the









community?

(Mr. Fair): Probably we wrote the definition of the role of

public housing ah in the '60s.

(Interruption) Yes?

We wrote that definition and in so doing (sneeze, excuse) we

allowed public housing to be engaged with welfare reform to be

become a permanent albatross around the necks of Black people and

as a result they never developed any incentive to move beyond that.

So it was an adverse, negative impact on people simply because we

decided that forever we wanted to poor and they decided since we

made a decision, they would.forever provide us with subsidized

housing.

(Mr. Williams): The next set of questions I will be asking

"you are regarding Metro-rail. When and how did you first hear

about the building of Metro-rail?

(Mr. Fair): Don't recall the specifics at all ah probably

heard about at one of my chamber of commerce meetings because at

that time I was very active in what was called the New World Center

Action Committee in Downtown Miami headed up by Alva Chatman of the

Knight Ridder Newspaper chain. That is probably where I first

heard about and as usual got involved in how it was going to impact

on my community. There was a great deal of debate about how we

were going to pay for it so there was a public referendum before

the people. Ah as is always the case in this town, ah folks who

stand to make all of the money, figure out a way to get it passed

and the formula is that you can tell every community what it's









going to do for them. I was intimately involved in trying to find

what would be the benefits of the Black community for supporting

the referendum. My notion was that we should have negotiated for

those things that we could easily obtain because we had capacity.

However, I lost out on that so we got caught up in negotiating for

building the system. I wanted to negotiate for operating and

maintaining the system. I had just built some houses and I knew

that our capacity to build a building was one thing but our

capacity ah to build a Metro-rail system was very limited. We had

no heavy equipment owners in this community that could move 4 tons

of concrete and steel, ah we.didn't have that kind of capacity in

our community so it didn't make any sense for us to sit down at a

-table and say we will support Metro-rail if y'all give us the

"construction piece. They said oh yeah, fine. They knew we

couldn't do that but the maintenance piece, the operating of the

system, the keeping the bathrooms clean, the lawn contract for

landscaping at the system, ah the security needs at the system, the

jobs that were related to operating the buses themselves, etc. into

the system. To me, those jobs that we could easily fill and go

forward. I have never ridden the Metro-rail because that is the

only thing in my 35 years in this town that I felt that I was

betrayed by the system. Then the Metropolitan Dade Country

Transportation Director was a fellow by the name of John Dyer, the

County Manager was a fellow by the name of Mayor Sterheim ah they

came and said if y'all do certain things then we will reward the

Black community accordingly ah after it is all over and the certain









things was to go out and tell the Black-community that it was in

our best interest ah to support the referendum. Ah so I did that

I organized and ran on behalf of the referendum ah the mobilization

of the Black community out of an office right there on Seventh

Avenue and Sixty-Second Street in what is now called the MLK

Building. Ah it was our vote that we push the referendum over hump

and made it victorious but they didn't deliver to me what they

promised what they were going to deliver so in my own individual

way of protesting, I have never ridden the Metro-rail and never

will.

(Mr. Williams): What was the community able to get from

public officials in return for Metro-rail...

(Mr. Fair): NOTHING!



(Mr. Williams): ...going through...

(Mr. Fair): ...empty promises.

(Mr. Wil-liams): Okay you kind of mentioned those servicing

jobs.

(Mr. Fair): They didn't get those, see that's, that's what I

wanted on the front end. A couple of folks got a little piece here

and a little piece there but you can get that just basically on

your merit. The issue becomes given something with that magnitude,

you ought to negotiate more than something just for me and you at

this point so they didn't get anything.

(Mr. Williams): As a community?

(Mr. Fair): As a community. They built a station, they built









stations in our neighborhood but I don't see that as...you got to

have a station where the ridership is and who is going to be more

dependent on the Metro-rail than poor people, you know so you're

not doing me no favor. You, it's the economics of the system when

you build a station where you know that these people have no cars

and, therefore, they are more liable to be users of the system.

Why don't you build a station, if you are going to build the

station in my neighborhood, then give me the contract to maintain

the station so I can get some jobs out of my neighborhood, you know

for the landscaping as I said earlier, for the bathrooms and all

the stuff that goes along. It's a lot of money that could be made

just for the maintenance of the station and just think if we had

-the contract to maintain, provide security and other services for

all the stations that are in our neighborhood, that's what I was

trying to get at.

(Mr. Williams): So overall how did public...how did the

Metro-rail..,excuse me. Overall, how did the Metro-rail affect the

community?

(Mr. Fair): They didn't...I guess it probably affected the

community both positively and negatively. Ah at that time Mayor

Maurice Ferray was the mayor and he was developing on a very rapid

rate Downtown Miami, our skyscrapers were going up left and right

and he was espousing the vision of being the gateway to the South

Americas ah and there is a notion that if you are going to be a

first-class world city there are certain things that you have to

have, you know and one of those things is that you have got to have










a rapid transit system to move all these people in and out and

downtown and all ports east, west, north and south so ah it was

part of his vision to add that piece on to making us a world class

city, that's a positive, that probably a positive. The issue is,

is that he misread what he was, that he was in south Florida, that

people in south Florida were not use to riding on a rail system.

They were use to riding on a railroad or road system and as a

result they have never been able to mount the ridership that's

needed to make the system pay for itself at this point and that's

the negative because it's a drain right now on the system, called

the general budget of the county.

(Mr. Williams): The next set of questions I will be asking,

finally regarding the future of Overtown. First question: What

-'are the most, what are the most important and misconceptions about

Overtown?

(Mr. Fair): On behalf of Black folks that it's going to

revert back to what it was. They keep talking about Overtown

coming alive, it is dead, never will be what it should. What they

thought it was going to be because it never should have been what

it was.

(Mr. Williams): Never should have been what it was?

(Mr. Fair): No.

(Mr. Williams): And what's that exactly?

(Mr. Fair): Well, it was, it was created out of mistreatment

of Black people (SILENCE...Ha, ha, ha, ha) right?

(Mr. Williams): What do you think public officials most need










to know about Overtown?

(Mr. Fair): Well it's not what they most need to know, it's

what they need to make the community know. It is the most

expensive land in Dade County and for anybody to suggest that it

ought to be continued to be raped in the fashion that it is now

being raped it is totally unfair to the economic future of this

community. Alright, if you look at all of the communities similar

to Overtown and back to what we said earlier, Harlem is 15 minutes

from any place in Manhattan. Any White person who lives in

Westchester, New York who commutes in everyday to the financial

center knows that if he had his drathers he'd want to be at 125 and

Lenox, alright, but we have allowed that to become tarnished and,

.therefore degraded to the extent that it looks like a wasteland but

-the land, is still the most expensive because of one thing,

location, location, location. Overtown is the same place. Alright

you can spit on the seaport, you can spit on the airport, alright,

you can spit on the Performing Arts Trust, alright? It's all right

there in the back door of Overtown, you are going to have the

pavilion called Miami Arena. All of that's in Overtown and it give

credence to the fact that you are not to suppose to in terms of

good economic sense to have a million dollars worth of steel here

and shanties right across the street. Nobody wants to talk about

that, not because it does not make good economic sense but because

it is simply too many Black folks who say that if you talk about it

you are racist and it's too many White folks who say that I don't

want to be called a racist so I just won't talk about it.









(Mr. Williams): What should be done to improve the Overtown

area now such as transportation...

(Mr. Fair): Move all those folks out of Overtown. You can't

even talk about transportation until you decide who is going to be

the occupants in Overtown. The thoroughfares are there. You've got

Fifth Street runs a corridor all the way to the seaport, Alright?

You've got Biscayne Boulevard which runs A1A all the way down to

Key West on the eastern extremity, you got a Seventh Avenue that

takes you all the way up into Broward County and you got east, west

corridors, that allow you to travel over, around and through

anywhere you want to get to .so the transportation system is in

place. What's not in place is the proper use of the land, that's

-all. Why would you want to talk about trying to restore ah

-"Rockland Palace and don't have enough money to put the appropriate

retail commercial outlets to make the entire neighborhood go.

Rockland Palace only makes sense if everything around it is rocking

in terms of economics, not folks sitting on the corner drinking out

of wine bags, not poolrooms, you know with folks hanging outside,

not a dilapidated boarded up building over here on this corner, not

some condos down the street that's been for sale for the last 5

years and only because you can not create enough energy in the

entire community to make it happen and don't tell me it's coming

alive because somebody give you some money to put a walk way from

Third Avenue down to Miami Arena. No, coming alive means that you

see building going up. Alright, people moving, new people moving,

not people on welfare, not people who are down and out, not people









who are on social security, that, that's not what Overtown should

be about. Now if we had smart leadership we could negotiate and

get something done in Overtown but we keep asking White folks to do

the wrong thing.

(Mr. Williams): What should be the relationship between

Overtown and Downtown Miami, you mentioned a little bit of that?

(Mr. Fair): It's, it's the relationship is clear. It's

clear, it is downtown. It is downtown, it is a block from, it is

a stone's throw from, alright so it should compliment...that is the

relationship. It is complimentary. Alright, what happens

downtown, get's supported by Overtown so if you are going to build

between Sixth Street and Fourteenth Street in the next 5 years, two

.billion dollars worth of new construction, two billion dollars

-worth of new construction between Sixth and Fourteenth Street.

You've got the seaport, Maritime Expansion, you got the Performing

Arts Theater, you've got the Miami Arena, that's two billion

dollars worthof construction. Now under normal circumstances that

would trigger auxiliary development on the east side of Biscayne

Boulevard. Under normal circumstances alright because when you

begin to look at that kind of consumer traffic, that kind of steel

going up, you begin to say, okay ah restaurants, convenience

stores, office building, I mean stuff that's started going on but

we still got this great debate about we want Overtown to come alive

again. We are trying to compete and that's not the role of

Overtown it is to compliment and if it's going to compliment, then

it means that the vision has to be complementary.








(Mr. Williams): This is Devon Williams and this is the end of

Side A of the Interview with Mr. T. Willard Fair.




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