Title: Seminole Indians, Florida.
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/FS00000031/00001
 Material Information
Title: Seminole Indians, Florida.
Series Title: Seminole Indians, Florida.
Physical Description: Book
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Volume ID: VID00001
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Full Text






H. Res. 30

APRIL 6 AND 7, 1955

Printed for the use of the Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs

Serial No. 8


J lL 7 1955

?62224 WASHINGTON : 1955

CLAIR ENGLE, California, Chairman

LEO W. O'BRIEN, New York
GEORGE A. SHUFORD. North Carolina
B. F. SISK, California

E. L. BARTLETT, Alaska

A. L. MILLER, Nebraska.
JOHN P. SAYLOR, Pennsylvania
E. Y. BERRY, South Dakota
CRAIG HOSMER, California
JAMES B. UTT, California



JAMES A. HALEY, Florida, Chairman

GEORGE A. SHUFORD, North Carolina
B. F. SISK, California

^ ;! L.PB4TLWIAla"aj i 0 II

A, L. JMILLER, Nebraska
JOHN P. SAYLOR, Pennsylvania
E. Y. BERRY, South Dakota,


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Statement of- Page
O. H. Abbey, president, Friends of the Seminoles, State of California_ 12,
J. W. Adkins, chairman, Board of County Commissioners, Glades
County, Fla ---------------------------------------------- 14
Verne Barnes, manager, Hialeah-Miami Springs Chamber of Com-
merce_--------- --------------------------------------- 83
J. R. Baumgartner, North Miami, Fla _-------- __ 29,75
J. M. Couse, county attorney, Glades County, Fla--------_____ 9, 15
Henry Cypress, Seminole Indian, Box 116, LaBelle, Fla-----------_ 27
Agnes Denver, Seminole Indian _---------_--------------------_ 7
Salvatore DeRosa, 2231 Johnson Street, Hollywood, Fla_----------_ 84
Robert E. Hanley, Indian Affairs Committee, Hialeah-Miami Springs
Chamber of Commerce ------------------------------------_ 84
Mrs. Aaron. Harvey, United Seminole Affairs of Florida, 1801 81st
Avenue, Hialeah, Fla -----------------------------------_ 69
M. R. Johnson, past president, Friends of the Seminoles, State of
Florida-- ---------------------------------------12
Regina L. McLinden, president, United Seminole Affairs Association,
212 Northeast 17th Street, Miami, Fla_---------------_____ 34, 76
Kenneth Marmon, superintendent, Seminole Agency_-------------_ 50
C. E. Miner, member, Board of County Commissioners of Henry
County, Fla ------------------------------------------- 16
Earl A. Murray, chairman, Board of County Commissioners, Hendry
County Fla ------------------------------------- -- 17
Bill Osceola (as interpreted by George Storm), chairman, Board of
Directors, Dania, Brighton and Big Cypress Reservations; and
Laura Mae Osceola, secretary, Board of Directors--------------- 5
Larry Mike Osceola, Tamiami Trail, Fla_----- --_-------------- 19
Bertram Scott, Winter Park, Fla., executive secretary, Seminole
SIndian Association of Florida_ ------------------------------- 31
Mrs. Francis D. Sheldon, Fort Lauderdale, Fla., State chairman for
Indian welfare, Florida Federation of Women's Clubs----------- 75
Morton H. Silver, attorney at law, Miami, Fla ------_--_--__ _---- 51
Mrs. Frank Stranahan, legislative chairman, Friends of the Seminoles,
Fort Lauderdale, Fla -----------__-------------- 72
Milton R. Thomas, La Belle, Fla -------------------------------- 38
Buffalo Tiger, and his interpretation for Sam Jones, Fort Pierce;
Frank Charlie, Collier County; Ingram Billy, Dade and Collier
Counties; and Jimmie Billy -_ ------------------------------ 42
Velton Walters, superintendent of schools, Glades County, Fla .___ 3.





Clewiston, Fla.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2 p. m., in the Sugarland
Auditorium, Hon. James A. Haley (chairman) presiding.
Mr. HALEY. The subcommittee will come to order.
I would like at this time to make the following remarks for the
In accordance with House Resolution 30, the Committee on Interior
and Insular Affairs, of which this Subcommittee on Indian Affairs
is a part, is authorized to visit the Seminole Indians, both on and away
from the Dania, Brighton, and Big Cypress Reservations, as well as
those residing along the Tamiami Trail.
It is with a great deal of pleasure that I introduce to you this after-
noon the gentlemen with me. Congressmen enjoy getting away from
Washington at this time of the year, particularly when they can come
to Florida. I know you are as happy to see them as they are to be
Let me introduce, first, the distinguished gentleman from North
Carolina, Congressman George Shuford, on my left.
The other distinguished gentlemen, immediate past chairman of
the full committee, is a fine Member of the Congress, a very able man,
and we are happy to have with us this afternoon, Congressman Miller
of Nebraska.
By the way, these men are all members of the Subcommittee on
Indian Affairs.
Your own Congressman Rogers is not in the room; he will be here
very shortly. He should not need too much introduction down in this
part of the country.
We also have here with us Mr. H. Rex Lee, Associate Commis-
sioner of Indian Affairs; Dr. J. L. Taylor, our staff consultant, at the
end of the table, and our reporter is Karl F. Veley.
The purpose of our visit is to learn as much as possible in the 2 days
at our disposal about the problems of the Seminole Indians.
On August 1, 1953, House Concurrent Resolution 108, 83d Congress
was passed. This resolution reads as follows:
Whereas it is the policy of Congress, as rapidly as possible, to make the
Indians within the territorial limits of the United States subject to the same
laws and entitled to the same privileges and responsibilities as are applicable
to other citizens of the United States, to end their status as wards of the United
States, and to grant them all of the rights and prerogatives pertaining to Ameri-
can citizenship; and



-- ~--- ~

Whereas the Indians within the territorial limits of the United States should
assume their full responsibilities as American citizens: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), That it is
declared to be the sense of Congress that, at the earliest possible time, all of
the Indian tribes and the individual members thereof located within the States
of California, Florida, New York, and Texas, and all of the following named
Indian tribes and individual members thereof, should be freed from Federal
supervision and control and from all disabilities and limitations specially ap-
plicable to Indians: The Flathead Tribe of Montana, the Klamath Tribe of
Oregon, the Menominee Tribe of Wisconsin, the Potowatamie Tribe of Kansas
and Nebraska, and those members of the Chippewa Tribe who are on the Turtle
Mountain Reservations, N; Dak 'It is further declared to be the sense of
Congress that, upon the release of such tribes and individual members thereof
from such disabilities and limitations, all offices of the Bureau of Indian Affairs
in the States of California, Florida, New. York and Texas and all other offices
of the Bureau of Indian Affairs whose primary purpose was to serve any Indian
tribe or individual Indian freed from Federal supervision should be abolished.
It is further declared to be the sense of Congress that the Secretary of the
Interior should examine all existing legislation dealing with such Indians, and
t reatie between the Government of the United States and each such tribe, and
report to Congress at the earliest practicable date, but not later than January 1,
1954, his recommendations for such legislation as, in his judgment, may be neces-
sary, to accomplish the purposes of this resolution.
You will recall that on March 1 and 2,1954, joint Senate and House
hearings were held in Washington on S. 2747 and H. R. 7321, bills to
terminate Federal supervision over the property of the Seminole
Tribe of Indians in the State of Florida, and the individual members
thereof. Many of you came to Washington and appeared as witnesses
before our joint subcommittees. Copies of the minutes taken at those
hearings are available for those who are interested in reading them.
About a year ago I brought a subcommittee, consisting of Congress-
man Berry of South Dakota, Congressman Westland of Washington,
and the late Dwight L. Rogers, former Member of Congress from this
district, Mr. H. Rex Lee, Associate Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
and Mr. John Jex, Staff Consultant, Senate Subcommittee on Indian
Affairs to Florida to study Seminole problems.
There are several matters concerning the Seminole Indians that re-
quire further study and clarification. We hope to gather information
which will help in preparing termination time schedules, if termina-
tion is desirable, information which will guide our thinking on the
question of State trusteeship, and on the timing and basis for State
assumption of welfare law and order. We need information on the
portions of road, education, and health costs the State and Federal
Government should provide. We want to learn more about your
cattle industry, your farming problems, and your school and
hospital programs. We are anxious to find out what opportunities
there are for your employment on some of the farms nearby, as well
as in cities like Fort Myers, Sebring, Palm-Beach, Fort Lauderdale,
Miami, and Coral Gables. We would like to look further into the
possibilities of increasing and improving your own farms, and your
living conditions. In fact, we have come to learn as much as we
possibly can about you, your needs and problems. We hope those who
have prepared statements will feel free to submit them in writing or
orally. Please bring your interpreter with you if you need assistance.
If you wish to send your statements to Washington later, we shall be
pleased to receive them.
Dr. Miller, would you care to make any statement at this time?

I I I I .


I I ii


Dr. MILLER. I would just like to say that I am pleased to be here in
the congressional district of Congressman Rogers, who is coming in
now, and James Haley, our subcommittee chairman, who is a very able
chairman. You may proceed with the hearing whenever you wish.
Mr. HALEY. I would like to call on Congressman Shuford of North
Carolina at this time.
Mr. SHUirORD. I would just like to express my gratitude at being
here and the privilege to meet with these people in Florida. It is
always a pleasure to come to this State. I have been here before and
I look forward to the pleasure that I will have on every trip.
I commend this district most highly upon its representation in
Washington-Mr. Rogers. I knew his father Dwight Rogers, very
well. He was one of my closest friends. I also appreciate the privi-
lege of knowing his boy Paul who is doing a wonderful job in Wash-
ington. I also want to commend you, Mr. Chairman, upon the fine
work you have done -fo the Indians and for the people of your State
of Florida as well as the Nation.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you.
We now have the young man on my left here who has been serving
you so ably in the Congress. Paul Rogers, would you like to say a few
words to your constituents here?
Mr. ROGERS. Yes, sir; thank you.
Mr. Chairman, Congressman Shuford, Congressman Miller, and
members of the staff, it is certainly a great pleasure to welcome you
here to the Sixth District on behalf of the citizens of this area, and
particularly our good Indian citizens.
I think we are very fortunate to have this committee take the time,
when the rest of the Members of Congress are taking a vacation, to
come down here because they are interested, deeply interested, in the
conditions of our Indians, and they are taking their time to come
down here to hold these hearings.
We certainly want to extend to you our welcome and every courtesy
that we can, and if there is anything that we can do for you, Mr.
Chairman, we want you to call on us. All of us, any of us, I know
will be mighty pleased to do anything we can. We appreciate your
taking your time to be here, and I know these meetings will be very
successful and most helpful to the Indians and all of the friends of the
Indians. Thank you.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you, Congressman Rogers.
Dr. Taylor, would you call the first witness, please?
Mr. TAYLOR. The first name on my list is Mr. Velton Walters,
superintendent of schools, Glades County.
Mr. HALEY. Will you come around and take the witness stand,
State your name for the record.

Mr. WALTERS. Velton Walters.
Mr. HALEY. And your position ?
Mr. WALTERS. Superintendent of schools, Glades County.
Mr. HALEY. We will be glad to hear any statement you care to

- ----~~--~ ~~~~ ~ -


Mr. WALTERS. I am representing the Glades County Board of Public
Instruction concerning the educational program for the Brighton
Seminoles. That reservation is in Glades County, and this past year
they closed the elementary school over there and somebody had to pro-
vide an educational program for them. For the past 4 years Okee-
chobee County had handled the high-school students who had made
their way to their bus routes, and we had handled a few of the students
who were able to live on the bus route or in Moore Haven.
At the last moment we found out that we were not entitled to Fed-
eral aid, and we went over and made arrangements with Okeechobee
County to handle the program for this year. It cost us $1,620 that
we feel we are entitled to retrieve because there is no provision whatso-
ever for us to pay out that sum of money. We did not have it in our
budget, and we did not want to let these boys and girls down for an
educational program.
Now Okeechobee County tells us if we will provide $1,620 again
and let them know by the 9th of next month, that they will help us
and will carry on the program again this next year.
Mr. HALEY. These children, of course, are all Indian children you
are speaking of ?
Mr. WALTERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HALEY. I do not believe you made that clear in the record.
Mr. WALTERS. They are Seminole students. We do have one or
two, maybe-I do not know we have any-we may have one or two
living at Brighton that are white children. I am not sure about that.
Mr. HALEY. Mr. Shuford, do you have any questions ?
Mr. SHUFORD. The school was an Indian school conducted by the
Indian Bureau?
Mr. WALTERS. The Federal Government; yes, sir.
Mr. SHUFORD. And that is the school that was discontinued by the
Mr. WALTERS. That is right.
Mr. SHUFORD. And it leaves you with these children that have to
be educated?
Mr. SHUFORD. In the State of Florida, do you have a compulsory
educational law ?
Mr. WALTERS. Yes, sir; from 7 to 16.
Mr. SHUFORD. From 7 to 16?
Mr. SHUFORD. What ages are these children?
Mr. WALTERS. They run all the way up from 7 and some above 16.
Mr. SHUFORD. I think that is all.
Mr. HALEY. Do you have any questions, Dr. Miller?
Dr. MILLER. No questions.
Mr. HALEY. Mr. Rogers, do you have any questions?
Mr. ROGERS. No questions.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much.
Mr. WALTERS. Thank you.
Mr. HALEY. Call the next witness, Dr. Taylor.
Mr. TAYLOR. The next witness is Bill Osceola.
Mr. STORM. He is going to use me for an interpreter.

r. I I IL~ II3~.II

11'' II'


Mr. HALEY. What is your name?
Mr. STORM. George Storm.
Mr. HALEY. Proceed.


Mr. OscEOLA. We are very happy today to have you folks come and
have a meeting with us today.
Between the three reservations, we have compiled a program that
would be presentable to this subcommittee, and we have brought our
secretary to produce this particular program to you today.
Mrs. OSCEOLA. I am Laura Mae Osceola, secretary of the reserva-
tions committee.
Mr. HALEY. Laura Mae, let me ask you this: This statement is com-
ing now from what?
Mrs. OSCEOLA. From the three reservations.
Mr. HALEY. The three reservations ?
Mrs. OSCEOLA. Yes.
Mr. HALEY. Brighton, Big Cypress, and Dania ?
Mrs. OSCEOLA. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. HALEY. Dr. Miller.
Dr. MILLER. Did you have a meeting to decide the program?
Mrs. OSCEOLA. We did-meeting of the board of directors of the
Seminole Reservation Tribe, Dania, Fla., April 4,1955.
Mr. HALEY. Proceed.
Mrs. OSCEOLA (reading):

APRIL 4, 1955
The meeting of the board of directors was called by Bill Osceola, chairman,
-which was held on the Dania Reservation from 9 a. m. to 12 noon.
The meeting was called for the purpose of talking over the problems to be
presented to the congressional committee from Washington at the meeting to
be held in Clewistown, Fla., on April 6.
The following problems and matters were discussed:
1. Members of the committee wanted to know why the Indian Bureau (Wash-
ington) and the Muskogee Area office had not yet recognized our business com-
mittees, and given us authority to use our tribal funds in order to improve
our reservation lands and the construction of a community house.
If the Indian Bureau is wanting to terminate their services they should give us
authority to go ahead with our committees so that we can plan and work with
the officials. We should organize before plans are started to terminate the
Indian Bureau and not leave us to work out our problems. We would like to
know the reasons why we have not heard from the Muskogee Office on this
2. We do not feel that any changes should be made in the Seminole Agency
staff at this time, but when a change is made in the superintendent's position
we want another good superintendent, because there are a lot of problems that
cannot be handled by a clerk. Because we need someone to advise and take
care of our problems and see that we do things legally-to meet with us and
advise us at our meetings. We want the Indian Bureau to give the agency
official full authority to act in our behalf and help to keep other people from
causing our people trouble.
62224-55- 2



3. We have brought up this question before. The question is, How can we have
the funds (money) released to the tribe which is now being held in the United
States Treasury, which amounts to about $16,883? We have tribal funds amount-
ing to about $116,000, but we cannot use any of these funds because the Indiana
Bureau tells us we will have to have a legal organization.
We need these funds made available to us so that we can use the funds for
improvement, such as home building, sanitation, and so forth.
We know that there are about 27,000 acres of land on the Brighton Reserva-
tion which we are using, but the title is still in the Department of Agriculture
and not the Department of the Interior. What can be done to give the Interior
Department and the Seminole Tribe the title to these valuable lands?
4. What can and will the Indian Bureau do to a person who comes in between
the Seminole Tribe and he tells them he is going to fight against the laws of
Florida and the laws of the United States? This person also tells them we are
not citizens of the United States. We know that we are citizens of the United
States and have been since June 1924, by act of Congress.
(a) By State laws, we mean that this person encourages them to keep their
children from attending school; also that he made a special trip to Tallahassee
with a group of Trail Seminoles to ask for special favors. This was on February
21, when they met with Governor LeRoy Collins.
(b) He also tells them (Trail Indians) that the people who live on the reser-
vations will not have anything in about 2 years. He advises them that if they
fight against the laws they will live just as they are now living.
(c) Since this group is fighting against all these ideas or laws, why is it that
the Government is trying to get lands for them--the Ingram Billie group?
(d) This group has told one of our committeemen that they are going to fight
against the laws, even if they have to use force.
5. The board decided to have the following interpreters for the meeting at
Clewiston on Wednesday:
(1) Billie Osceola, for the Cow Creeks;
(2) George Storm, for the Miccosukai group.
6. We, the board of directors, of the three reservations-Dania, Brighton, and
Big Cypress-agree to the above statements made at this meeting this 4th day
of April 1955.
(Signed) BILL OSCEOLA, Chairman.
Mr. HALEY. Does that complete your statement?
Mrs. OSCEOLA. This other statement is when we had the meeting
with Mr. Emmons when he was down here. Would you like to hear
it or just put it in the file ?
Mr. SHUFORD. Was that made to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs
when he was here ?
Mrs. OSCEOLA. Yes.
Mr. HALEY. I think we will just put it in the file.
Without objection, this copy of a letter, addressed, I presume, to
the Commissioner of Indian Affairs-by whom?
Mrs. OSCEOLA. That is the problems we asked when he was down
Mr. HALEY. The three reservations asked him these questions?
Mrs. OSCEOLA. Yes.
Mr. HALEY. Without objection, it will. be made a part of the file.
(The document referred to will be found in the files of the com-
Mr. STORM. The questions that were given before, they want to have
an answer, because we have two speakers for the different dialects in
the tribe. So they want to have the answers so they can interpret
them to the Indians here, the answers to numbers they have given to
you a moment ago.
Mr. HALEY. The questions that were asked just a moment ago?
Mr. STORM. Yes.


_ __ __ I I ;C I_


Mr. HALEY. I doubt if this committee at this time could answer
these questions. In the first place, it would have to go before the
full committee. Many of these questions, as I judge it, are directed
more to the Indian Bureau than to the committee. We probably can
take this up in executive session later on in Washington and prob-
ably supply them with the answers.
For instance, these questions involve matters of policy, and many
of them will, of course, have to be answered by the Indian Bureau it-
self. I am sure that they are not in a position at this moment to
answer those questions.
Will you explain to them that some of these questions, for instance,
are things that would come before the Congress, some of them are
things that would come before the Bureau of Indian Affairs, some of
them would probably involve the release of funds and would have to
come before the Treasury Department. As soon as we get back in
Washington, we will attempt to take these questions that you have
asked and give you an answer and transmit it down here to you.
(This was translated by Mr. Storm.)
Mr. STORM. That completes his statement.

Mrs. DENVER. I am Mrs. Agnes Denver, Roosevelt, Utah. I am a
Seminole Indian from Florida.
I feel before I go on I would like to-I am speechlees now. I have
never spoke before the Congressmen, and I feel I am honored to
speak before Congressmen as long as I am not able to go to Washing-
ton, and we are fortunate to have the Congressmen come before us as
Seminoles here in Florida. And we are very fortunate, and you don't
see Congressmen come here just for pleasure. I know they are work-
ing people, and I like to say that we are honored as Seminoles.
I am talking in behalf of the Seminole Indians of Florida. I have
interest still among the people and know the needs here in my own
people. So that I feel whatever I can do and say before the Congress-
men, they will do whatever they can in their power to help the Semi-
noles in that.
So I felt like, when I came here I had spoke with the superintendent
of the Seminole Indian Agency and various people throughout Miami,
Hollywood, -Fort Lauderdale, and Dania, and white people around
here are willing to help as much as they can. But we feel that our
problems will go before the Government, and that's why we want to
bring the problems before the Congressmen and Assistant Commis-
sioner Rex Lee. I am sure he is a person who will be able to take the
problems back before Commissioner Glen Emmons. So I felt like
bringing this before the Congressmen so they will know our problems.
A person who has been away will realize the conditions when you
come back to your own reservation.
The first thing we want to know, if Florida Seminoles and other
groups like Tamiami Trail don't want to go without plans-Big Cy-
press, Brighton, and Dania-is it permissible to have a division ? If
that division would be made, would it be permissible to have that
proportion of money to come to make progress for those groups of
Indian people ?




If not, we will try to work up a plan as much as we can to well
benefit the whole Seminole Indian Tribe, because as long as they are
Seminoles they are entitled to what is coming to them. I don't care
where they are or where they have been, they will have their title or
interest that is coming, whatever it is. As long as Seminoles, they
will have it coming. That is way I feel and try to talk to them to
work for the interest of all Seminoles. Whether living in Miami, in
private home, you still have interest on reservation, so you have to
work with older Indians. So you understand if you are Indian-well,
I am Indian. I know the Indian people and know the older Indians,
we have to look out for them. We just can't shove them out some-
where else where they will be neglected, and a lot of people are doing
that. A lot of Indians. Not only Indians, but there are white people
too. So we have to work for older people and look out for them.
So that is what we plan before the board of directors and see if we
could work out a program to well benefit all the Indians, and that was
one of them.
Then the improvement of homes. Why is it that the Government
cannot help the Indians to build their decent homes and give them
some kind of security before they terminate them, because we all know
they are not ready to terminate right now. And the problems down
here have been that for so long, and the people outside of Florida
will understand because Seminole Indians are not ready to be ter-
minated. So we want to know if the Government will be able to help
us to build us a home, will be good enough that I can invite some of
you Congressmen to have dinner, or friends of the Seminoles, or any
white friends we have in Florida that we feel like would be welcome
too right now.
I am just bitterly ashamed to say you are not welcome to my house
because of the conditions of home.
Those are the main things. We want to know if there could be
sanitation on the reservation. They do have one on church grounds,
but everybody can't be running there all the time because centralized
right on the reservation. It is part of the reservation but for Chris-
tian group too. You ask permission to go use it. We feel like if we
have shower houses or bathrooms or washrooms they can feel welcome
to come and use it any time they want to.
Another thing is to build a community center for the whole Indian
group where they can sell their jewelries or souvenir things for the
public, where they don't have to go to the public places or commercial
camps where white people are making money off of them. That is
true, and we all know it. I know it because I have seen it, and have
been away and know how people are making money off Seminole In-
dians, and it is really a heartbreaking thing to see the way people
making money off of the Indian and getting rich off them.
I can say just yesterday I went to see the sightseeing boats coming
in here, and they tell the white people, on sightseeing boat that Semi-
noles are not citizens of the United States, never signed a peace treaty
with Government, and just live like this in chickees all their life. That
is not true. Some of us have been in school, educated ourselves. In-
stead of helping ourselves to better ourselves, they just run us down.
That is how much I want to say before the Congressmen, and I
really appreciate it if some of you Congressmen also talk to Senator

_~L.ZL~L --

r -------------------- -- ---------II


Watkins and Congressman Dawson and try to help work the prob-
lems with Seminoles. They don't know I am Utah, but I have corre-
sponded with them and I will try to tell them about our problems
down here, and I know whatever comes up before the Congressmen
they will try to support me whatever they can. Thank you.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you.
Do you have any questions, Mr. Shuford ?
Mr. SHUFORD. I would just like to say for Dr. Miller's benefit that
Mrs. Denver was educated at Cherokee in North Carolina. That is
within my district and we are very proud of it.
Dr. MILLER. Fine.
Mr. HALEY. I might say to the young lady, you said you were a little
bit frightened, but you certainly did not give any indication of it up
here. I want to assure you that Congressmen or Senators are just
human people too.
Mrs. DENVER. They are bigger shots than I am. [Laughter.]
Mr. HALEY. Does that complete this group of witnesses?
Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much, all of you.
Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. J. M. Couse, county attorney for Glades County.
Mr. HALEY. Identify yourself for the record.

Mr. COUSE. I am J. M. Couse. I am county attorney for Glades
Mr. HALEY. Proceed.
Mr. CousE. On extremely short notice which we received this
morning by telephone, I haven't had plans to make a prepared state-
ment. But both the board of county commissioners and the school
board wish to call your attention to the fact that this proposed change
in status involves a very great many problems and a very consid-
erable amount of money, proportionate to the size of the county in
which the Brighton Reservation is located.
Now the county commissioners there have already taken over and
assumed maintenance for something between 7 and 8 miles of road
in the Indian reservation intended to serve primarily the Indians
only, and later the school buses. They have agreed to take over an
additional 3 to 4 miles of roads when construction is completed. The
Brighton Reservation involves some 54 sections, approximately one-
sixth of the size of the entire county. Of course, it is tax free and
has been for a long time.
Many of these problems require preparation and time and money
long before they can be met.
In the schools, for instance, we have but one plant in the county.
Children from all over the county are transported to that plant.
When the problem was placed before the school board something
over a year ago, they were urged to proceed immediately to receive
those Seminole children. They canvassed the parents of the school
and questioned the admission of the Seminole children, and the vote
was overwhelmingly in favor of it. But the admission of those
children would mean something like an additional 20 percent to the


present enrollment of that school. That meant many things. Among
others, it meant buildings, it meant school supplies, it meant teachers,
it meant transportation, which is extremely expensive. I don't know
the exact mileage, but it would mean somewhere between 25 and 30
miles for each schoolday on a round trip, or a total of 50 to 60 miles,
and you can't run a school bus on that kind of a route without it
costing you a good deal of money.
The school board was first led to believe they would receive Federal
aid to meet some of these additional expenses, and then the question
of whether they would receive State aid. Finally, when they learned
that they could get neither, they paid Okeechobee County. They
were reluctant to do it, but it was the only way possible. So that
those children are attending school in a different county than their
residence by payment of the Glades County School Board, which was
the only feasible and most economical way of handling it at that time.
They had no funds budgeted to meet that. They are reluctant to
budget it this year. They had made all plans to receive the children
in that school.
Those are only two of the problems involved, but you have a great
many. You have the question of welfare. You have the question of
expenses for indigent. There are many others-any county services.
Of course, some of them, the Indians don't know about and haven't
asked for or sought yet.
The Indian children, under the leadership of Mr. Boehmer out
there in charge of the Brighton School, have made very, very great
strides in the habit of school attendance and in their progress in their
schoolwork. There is no question about that. But it still means, when
you take that kind of a proportionate increase in the enrollment,
just overnight by 20 percent, you still have some very great problems
involved, and so have the county commissioners. They feel it should
be called strongly to your attention.
Some 20 years ago, I remember some publicity about the proposal
for the Federal Government to make some payment to the taxing units,
whether county or State or other, of what was called in lieu of taxes.
I do not know whatever happened to it, but it would have meant a
great deal in the preparation of that county for this problem if any
such bill had ever gone through.
I remember Congressman Peterson was active in it and gathered
a good deal of data in connection with it.
Mr. HALEY. Does that complete your statement ?
Mr. COUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HALEY. Mr. Shuford, do you have any questions?
Mr. HALEY. Dr. Miller, do you have any questions ?
Dr. MTLLER. On the question of payment in lieu of taxes, I think
last year we had 26 to 27 bills before the committee on the same sub-
ject, and it is still of very much interest.
Mr. COUSE. I can understand it is a very large problem for the
Dr. MILLER. I would like to ask you another question not related
to the schools. What is your experience in maintaining law and order
as far as the reservations are concerned ? Is there any problem con-
nected with that?


Mr. COTuE. I would prefer that the sheriff were here, but my im-
pression is there is no serious problem. I do not mean there is never
any, but it is comparatively minor. Certainly I would say it is equal
to or less than the like problem in the remainder of the county, cor-
responding to the population.
Dr. MILLER. Do you have authority on the reservations at all?
Mr. CousE. Yes, sir. I recall some game violations long years ago.
I don't remember any recent ones. But'I don't understand that any
State sovereignty was ever ceded on those reservations, and the sheriff
goes in and out of there just as though it were his own farm, when
he has business there.
Dr. MILLER. Does he assume the responsibility for law and order,
he and your office, on the reservations, or do they have some form of
protection themselves ?
Mr. COUSE. If they have such form of protection, I haven't heard of
it. I hold another office, that of county judge, in which the problem
is also involved. And the sheriff, for instance, on complaint of an
Indian that his hog was stolen, goes out to help find it and then find
the man who stole it, if he can. On complaint of brawling, he goes
There. So far as I know, he has no recognized deputy there, but when
they have trouble someone brings him word and he goes. The same
thing is true in the sale of intoxicating liquor. But the violations
there, I would say, have been equal or less than those in the rest of
the county on a population proportion.
Dr. MILLER. That is all.
Mr. HALEY. As a matter of fact, Mr. Couse, the Indians them-
selves, the Seminole Indians, are noted for being very law-abiding and
peaceful people as a rule. Is that not right?
Mr. CousE. In my opinion they are.
Mr. HALEY. Maybe I should direct this question to someone else,
but probably you can answer it: In the public schools of the county is
the Seminole child accepted without discrimination?
Mr. COUSE. I can only speak for our own county, Glades. I heard
more than one comment among the school boys of football ag-, tlit
they were indeed sorry they couldn't get the Seminoles to ladeses
County for the current term. There is no question about that. As far
as I personally know, there have been only three at one time in Glades
County school, but there has never been any difficulty. In all measures,
they have been the same as other children, participation in all activ-
ities, social and otherwise.
Mr. HALEY. There is another question that arises in my mind:
These youngsters coming on in the first, second, and third grades,
without some special training or assistance from the Federal Gov-
ernment or somewhere, how are we going to assimilate them into our
public schools where they don't talk our language, we will say ?
Mr. COUSE. My personal answer to that is that I suggested both to
the superintendent and to the school board that they do their darndest
to get Mr. Boehmer in our schools when the Seminoles came in. Mr.
Boehmer has worked with them in the school on Brighton Reservat ion.
He ran the schools there. He did a very good job there, in my per-
sonal opinion.
There is one other thing, and that is: As their attendance has begun
to approach 100 percent of those of school age, that knowledge and


that information, those habits, those things trickle down, just as the
young ones learn from the old ones.
Mr. HALEY. Congressman Rogers, do you have any questions
Mr. ROGERs. I have no questions. Thank you.
Mr. HALEY. If there are no further questions, thank you very much.
Who is the next witness ?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. O. H. Abbey.
Mr. HAILY. State your name and proceed.

Mrs. AaBBE. Mrs. O. H. Abbey.
I am pleased to address you on behalf of the Friends of the Semi-
noles, of which I am at the present time president, and Mrs. Stranahan
is our chairman in all legislative matters. We have always tried to
help the children in school.
I wonder if you would like to see how many of the children here
and older ones have gone to Cherokee to school and other places to
Mr. HALEY. I think Congressman Shuford would be delighted.
Mrs. ABBEY. How many children are there here, boys and girls, who
have gone at some time or other to the Cherokee Schools? Would you
please stand?
Mr. HALEY. I count 14.
Mrs. ABBEY. I know there are a lot more than that who have gone
1 year or 2 years.
Agnes, and Betty Mae, and Laura Mae, and George Storm, who is
interpreter today, were our first graduates. They were graduates of
Cherokee School, and a good many of them are helping their people.
And now you ask the question of how these little ones would come
along, and they are coming, because they have a kindergarten in Dania
starting to help them into school. That is run under the Baptist
Missionery and the Panhellenic Club of Fort Lauderdale. That was
the greatest trouble in Dania School. But now some of the children,
as I understand it, don't speak Seminole. The little ones are learn-
ing English so fast they don't speak Seminole, and the Seminoles are
objecting. So maybe the Seminoles don't want them all to become
people like we are.
I would like to present a resolution that we have, and Mrs. Johnson,
as one of our members, would like to read it so that the Indians will
know that we are trying to help them in what they are striving for.
Mr. HALEY. State your name for the record.

Mrs. JOHNsoN. Mrs. M. R. Johnson, past president of the Friends
of the Seminoles, State of Florida.
To Hon. James A. Haley, Congressman from Florida, Chairman of House Interior
and Insular Affairs Subcommittee on Indian Affairs:
To Hon. Paul G. Rogers, Congressman from Florida, and other accompanying
Congressmen and members of Indian Affairs group present at hearings on the


Seminole Indian problems at Clewiston, Fla., and on the Tamiami Trail at Jimmie
Tigers' Camp.
We, the Friends of the Seminoles of Florida, organized and chartered under the
laws of the State of Florida, wish to make the following statement and appeal
in reference to the Government proposals pertaining to the Seminole Indians of
Florida and the Federal service termination program:
1. We stand unequivocally behind that group of the Seminoles who have ex-
pressed their desire for continuation of Government supervision for 25 years,
the maximum time for which they have asked. This time is necessary for the
education and experience of the youth of the Seminole Nation so that they may
learn the English language and the white man's ways, and be fitted to take their
rightful place in our American way of life and as useful citizens of Florida.
2. We support the Seminole's proposal that the money which the Government
holds, as trustees for the Seminoles of Florida, should at this time be utilized
for their betterment. We sincerely believe, from our many years of experience
in volunteer work with them, in cooperation with the Government, that many of
them are now ready to adopt modern ways of living, if given the opportunity.
These moneys if apportioned per capital, for their use in improving their housing
and sanitation conditions, offer them that opportunity. Without it they will
never be able to get the improved conditions which they so desperately need.
3. We, therefore support the Seminoles in their desire that the moneys be
First, that a stipulated sum be set aside in a general fund for welfare and
medical supplies and burial emergencies.
You recognize as of July or June 1 this year, the nursing work will
be discontinued on the reservation.
Second, that money be made available to them, either by loan or direct grant,
for houses, sanitation, water, and other improvements.
Third, that m money also be made available for a community center building
on the Dania Reservation in which they could have a place to meet together for
mutual benefit and educational development.
And on the other reservations, if they so desire.
They have expressed their sincere desire for craft classes, that the women
might improve their ability to be self-supporting: Red Cross nursing classes that
they might learn how to better care for their children and sick; cooking and
nutrition classes, that they might learn how to better feed their families; home-
making classes, that they might learn to "be like the white brothers." We feel
it essential that the best of the white man's ways be made available to them,
rather than the worst. A community center could give them these opportunities.
4. We support the Seminoles also, in their appeal that no changes in Govern-
ment agency personnel be made until this program is fully established and
operating. They feel they need the present staff, who are familiar with their
problems and sympathetic to their hopes and ambitions for the betterment of the
Seminole Nation. Mr. and Mrs. Kenneth Marmon have proven their ability by
the fine relationship between Government and the Seminoles, established through
years of fine service. Mr. Fred Montsdeoca has won their confidence in teaching
them the cattle business. They need his continued help until this program, is
further developed. Mr. and Mrs. Boehmer are known and loved by them and
would be ideal teachers for the community center work which they so ardently
desire. The health nurse, Miss Harple, has also done fine work which they so
much appreciate and wish continued.
Respectfully submitted.
Mrs. O. H. ABBEY, President,
Mrs. FRANK STRANAHAN, Chairman of the Committee.
Mrs. ABBEY. I believe Laura Mae went after some of our kinder-
garten children to show you just how they are developing. You
may want to go on with something else.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you, Mrs. Abbey. That concludes your state-
Mrs. ABBEY. Yes.
62224-55- 3


Mr. HALEY. Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. J. W. Adkins, chairman of the Board of County Com-
missioners for Glades County.
Mr. SHUFORD (presiding). State your name, please.

Mr. ADKINS. J. W. Adkins, chairman of the Board of County Com-
missioners, Glades County.
I don't have much to say, more than I wish to know something
about what we will do, what we will use for money.
Mr. SHUFORD. That is in connection with the schools?
Mr. ADKINS. With the schools or-I don't have anything to do with
the schools. That is Mr. Walters and the school board there. But
in regards to indigent people, we have 5 grocery orders. We have
given amounts to a total of $220 to 1 person. Then we have 5 deaths
that we have buried from the reservation, amounting to $375, a total
of $595 all told.
Mr. SHUFORD. Within what period of time ?
Mr. ADKINS. That is 1954 up to the present.
Mr. SHUFORD. Through 1954 up to the present ?
Mr. ADKINS. Yes, sir. As these people learn of the benefits we will
have more. So we have got to have something to use for money.
Now we have 54 sections of land there in the reservation that is
nontaxable. We have the cattle there that is nontaxable. What are
we going to use for money to keep those roads up ? They are asking
us continuously for pieces of road, and we have nothing to keep it up
The reservation and the road department of the reservation will
obligate to build these roads and turn them over to the county, but
they must maintain them after they are turned over, and the county
must accept them. Now we have got the maintenance and upkeep of
those roads and we don't have the money to do it.
Mr. SHUFORD. Is there anything else you want to say ?
Mr. ADKINS. No, sir; that is all.
Mr. SHUFORD. Dr. Miller, do you have any questions?
Dr. MILLER. I do not think so.
Mr. SHIUFORD. Mr. Rogers, do you have any questions?
Mr. ROGERS No. sir.
Mr. SHUFORD. What is your assessed valuation of Glades County ?
Mr. ADKINS. Two million dollars, I believe.
Mr. SHUFORD. Under your road system, you say that the State of
Florida constructs the roads, and then the county accepts them for
maintenance? Is that your system?
Mr. ADKINS. The Indian reservation constructs the roads.
Mr. SHUFORD. The Indian reservation constructs the roads ?
Mr. ADKINS. And bridges.
Mr. SHUFORD. And then the county accepts them?
Mr. ADKINS. They want the county to accept them then and keep
them going.
Mr. SHUFORD. If the county refuses to accept them, what is the
status of the roads in that event ?



Mr. ADKINS. As I understand, the road superintendent, if those
roads are not constructed, that money is turned back to Washington.
Mr. SHUFORD. But where the roads are constructed and the county
refuses to accept them, what is the status then of the roads ?
Mr. ADKINS. I don't know what that would be because we have
accepted what roads we have been given.
Mr. SHUFORD. Under your welfare work, do you get any funds
from the State for welfare?
Mr. ADKINS. We get a small fund; yes, sir.
Mr. SHUFORD. Is that used for the welfare of the Indians ?
Mr. ADKINS. It is used for the welfare of everybody.
Mr. SHUFORD. Of everybody including the Indians?
Mr. ADKINS. Yes, sir. We are drawing on it. This $575 comes
out of that fund.
Mr. SHUFORD. How is that money allocated-by valuation of prop-
erty or by number of citizens in the county ?
Mr. ADKINS. Valuation of property.
Mr. SHUFORD. That is taking into consideration over the State?
Mr. ADKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SHUFORD. Does that complete your statement?
Mr. ADKINS. Yes, sir. Thank you.
Mr. SHUFORD. Thank you very much. Call the next witness, Dr.
Mrs. ABBEY. I wonder if I could take the floor again for a minute ?
Mrs. ABBEY. The children are here, and we would like to have them
give the Pledge of Allegiance for the Congressmen to show you they
can speak English.
Mr. SHUFORD. We would appreciate it very much. I see they are
just normal children.
Mrs. ABBEY. Absolutely. There is no difference when you see
them, and they are accepted at the Dania School very well.
(The Pledge of Allegiance was given by several Seminole children.)
Mrs. ABBEY. When the first children started in at the Dania Ele-
mentary School they knew none of the nursery rhymes, and it was
very hard because they use all of those nursery rhymes in kinder-
garten and in first grade in school, but now it is easy for the children
to enter first grade. They have no trouble at 6 years old.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you, Mrs. Abbey.
Mr. CoUSE. May I ask permission to supplement my statement about
the roads?
Mr. HALEY. Yes.

Mr. COUSE. There are two types of improved roads to the Brighton
Reservation. One is labeled a State road and was built by the State
road department at the request of the county commissioners, and its
construction and its maintenance will be paid for out of what is called
county gas tax funds. '
The other type of road, which is not hard surface, is simply a coral
surface, and was constructed by the Indian Service, and was con-
structed only after they got a promise from the county commissioners



that once completed in that manner, it would be maintained. That
is the 7 to 8 miles that I spoke about before.
The 3 to 4 miles which they now propose to construct before the
Indian Service turned them loose is the subject of an agreement by
the county commissioners to maintain it after the Indian Bureau has
constructed it-roads and bridges.
Dr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. HALEY. Dr. Miller.
Dr. MILLER. Does the Tamiami Trail go down through the reserva-
Mr. COUSE. No, sir.
Dr. MILLER. Who constructed that?
Mr. CousE. This Brighton Reservation is Glades County. The
State of Florida constructed the Tamiami Trail.
Dr. MILLER. And keeps it up ?
Mr. COUSE. Yes, sir. But the roads I refer to are almost entirely
for the use of the Indians alone, that is, farm-to-market roads, giving
access to State highways, and which will later be used for the school
buses, if we can ever get the facilities to take them on.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you.
Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. C. E. Miner of Henry County Board of County Com-
Mr. HALEY. We are happy to have you with us, Mr. Miner. For
the record, will you state your name and the position that you occupy.

Mr. MINER. My name is C. E. Miner. I am a member of the Board
of County Commissioners of Hendry County. The county seat is
LaBelle, Fla.
Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, approximately last summer, a lady
from, I imagine, the Indian headquarters, probably in Oklahoma,
with Mr. Marmon called on me, advising to the effect that they were
discontinuing certain services to the Indians as it pertains to health,
and would we help them with the problem.
In checking the constitution under which the county commissioners
operate, it says you shall help care for the poor and indigent. So we
took it that we had the authority to treat all people alike when we
determined that they needed help. That has got to where it costs, I
would say, in round figures-I am not prepared to give you the names
of the ones so affected-but something approximately close to $2,000,
with deaths, funerals, ambulance services.
More particularly, one little fellow was in distress and emaciated,
and was put into our local hospital and has been now brought to health.
The cost on that one child alone is some $700, which, of course, was
based on county rates and not on public rates, so to speak.
It confronts a problem. My county comprises 737,000 acres of
land, and I think it is about 8 percent of that amount would probably
be Indian land.
We also signed certain agreements with the Department of the In-
terior last year that, after they constructed certain roads, we would
take them over for maintenance, looking forward to the time when they



do and can use those roads for the farm-to-market, strictly from a
county standpoint. From State Road 80 which crosses from West
Palm Beach to Fort Myers, it is some forty-odd miles to the Indian
reservation they call the Big Cypress Reservation. That is now the
biggest portion. We are now working on the last part to be taken over
as a primary road because it existed at the time of the primary system
of this State being frozen by legislative action. It seems as though
we had to execute those papers; otherwise the local authorities would
be denied the funds from Washington to construct the roads.
I am not acquainted at all with the school problems of our Seminole
children, but I do know of the aid to the dependents, and we have
some old ones. It is a problem. If we have to face it, then we must;
but we certainly want to know whether to put it in our regular work
as we prepare our budget.
The State of Florida gives us certain racetrack money that we are
more or less committed by law to use certain ways, but the biggest
part of it to use for these purposes comes from ad valorem taxes.
I will be glad to answer any questions that the committee would
care to ask.
Mr. HALEY. Mr. Shuford, do you have any questions ?
Mr. SHUFORD. No questions.
Mr. HALEY. Dr. Miller, do you have any questions?
Dr. MILLER. I do not believe so.
Mr. HALEY. Mr. Rogers, do you have any questions ?
Mr. ROGERS. No questions.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much. We appreciate having you
with us.
Mr. MINER. Thank you.
Mr. HALEY. Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Earl Murray, chairman of the Board of County
Commissioners for Hendry County.
Mr. HALEY. Come around here, Mr. Murray. State your name for
the record.

Mr. HALEY. Have a seat, Mr. Murray, and proceed with any state-
ment you care to make.
Mr. MURRAY. Just whatever comes along; is that right ?
Mr. HALEY. Whatever you want to tell the committee.
Mr. MURRAY. If I may, I would like to state this: Born in 1893, at
the old Fort Thompson at the head of the Caloosahatchee River, and
since that time have been connected either directly or indirectly to
Fort Lauderdale, having contact with the Indians.
Gentlemen, I would like to call to your attention, mentioned here
before, but to my opinion it is the Government's fault that the younger
ones are not today educated like the very few you see up here in front.
A little county like we have is young. I would say 30 years old.
We are now doing our very best to construct roads over that vast area
of unimproved lands.. We have Big Cypress Reservation on our
southeast corner, and they are now doing their very best and are
making more strides in improving the pasture land, better cattle, and


other things. And if our Government will only come up with what
is its just obligation, instead of a county that can't take it at once,
I am sure in the next few years, if you take these young Seminole
children that are coming along, it won't take you long to improve their
standing in the county.
At the present time we are trying to take over the roads they are
building from Chokoloskee to the reservation, and when finished,
the county has agreed to take it over. Also the one leading north
from the reservation, we have agreed to take over when they are
We are going to make a trip this coming Wednesday and view the
one they propose to turn over to us from the reservation to the Dade
County line. I would like to state that I haven't been yet to look it
over, but if it is as reported to me, that they offer to turn it over, you
might as well turn over a flat piece of land and tell the county to build
a road in the first place. I certainly can't see it.
Knowing those Indians-if you remember 35 years ago, Tommie
was in Fort Lauderdale, and was one of the Seminoles that was sent
up to Pennsylvania to school, and he was just as well educated as any
white people. That shows if the Government would put the money
out to take care of the younger bunch, it would not take very long
before you have them in condition to handle themselves.
That is all I have to say.
Mr. HALEY. Mr. Shuford, do you have any questions ?
Mr. SHUFORD. How many Indians do you have in Hendry County ?
Is that it?
Mr. MURRAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SHUFORD. How many Indians in the county ?
Mr. MURRAY. I cannot give you that number.
Mr. SHUFORD. Do you have any idea of the number of families?
Mr. MURRAY. I would hate to state. It is not such a big amount
in Hendry County.
Mr. StHUFORD. I am not trying to pin you down, but would you have
as many as 200 in Hendry County ?
Mr. MURRAY. I would say we have. I am sure we have. They are
the last ones to receive the benefits that they should receive. That is
the same Big Cypress settlement we have in Hendry County. Mr.
Miner gave you the statement regarding the child in the hospital.
That has been our county expense. But I don't feel that our Govern-
ment has come to give them justice in helping to educate and put them
in the standing where they should be. We should have more help.
Mr. HALEY. Mr. Rogers, any questions ?
Mr. HALEY. Mr. Murray, it would be a fair statement, then, that in
your opinion any termination bill or any attempt to terminate the
trusteeship or supervision over the Seminole Indians would only come
after, you might say, the present young generation has reached adult-
hood and had received from the Government or from somewhere the
things that we, as Americans, all think a child should have-a good
education ?
Mr. MURRAY. That is right, sir.
Mr. HALEY. And that would solve the problems insofar as the State
and counties are concerned. It would also solve the problem as far


as the Federal Government is concerned because-is it your belief
that the Seminoles want to receive these things and would take his
rightful place in the economy and the social level of our community
and our society ?
Mr. MURRAY. Yes, sir.
May I say this? That you have a few down there now that you
have helped to put through schools, and they are in shape to be made
legally and could go along just as good as you and I could amongst
our people. But so few.
Dr. MILLER. In those cases, those that wanted to be liberated and
made full first-class citizens should have that opportunity ?
Mr. MURRAY. I believe they should, and they have quite a few down
there that have been given that opportunity of getting a better educa-
tion and a better understanding of how to take care of themselves.
Dr. MILLER. I notice there are 823 Seminoles, of which 728 are full-
bloods. Is that your understanding of it? It is in the statement
before us today.
Mr. MURRAY. I am inclined to think the majority of them are full-
Dr. MILLER. Most of them, a very high percentage, yes. I notice
the amount of land is 184,862 acres. Just using my pencil here, that
figures a little over 200 acres per Indian. Then it states they have 4,835
cattle, 85 horses, 1,125 chickens, and 1,300 swine. I suppose they sell
them from time to time and have some income from that source.
Mr. MURRAY. Yes; they do.
Dr. MILLER. I believe they state here that the average annual income
per family is $1,000. Is that about what you think it would be?
Mr. MURRAY. Out of cattle and other things it would be near that.
But may I add this ? You take the little bunch we have in Hendry
County, they are just now beginning to help themselves by the Gov-
ernment helping them to better grass, better cattle. But you don't
have water control, and you absolutely must have it in that part or lose.
Otherwise you might as well put it in a frog pond and turn them
loose. That is where they are today.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Murray.
Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Mike Osceola.
Mr. HALEY. State your name for the record.

Mr. OSCEOLA. Yes, sir. Larry Mike Osceola. I am a member of
the Seminole Tribe in the State of Florida, commonly known as the
Seminole, but they call it Miccosuki and the Muskogee.
Mr. HALEY. Give us any statement you would care to make.
Mr. OSCEOLA. I don't have much more than what I have previously
stated before the committee in Washington. I must say at this par-
ticular time I haven't seen any changes or been impressed, so I say I
don't have to change my testimony from previously before the com-
I would like to say, I have heard other people testify here, and I
imagine that they know, they are more qualified to speak for the
county which they represent. Unfortunately, we don't have any


county commissioners from Dade County, which is one of the largest
populated in the State of Florida. And we are not represented here
by one of those commissioners.
I think it would be a fair statement for me to put into the record
at this time-we have possibly between, I would say, 250 to 300
Seminoles residing in Dade County.
Also, I think it will be a fair statement for me to put into the
record at this time that I don't think there is any case of one problem
that has ever been put before the board of county commissioners for
aid or health because they were not able to. I know some cases have
been put before the welfare agency, but I don't think that the board
of county commissioners ever had any direct problem which they
had to deal with concerning the Indians which reside in Dade County.
I think we got three-quarters of a million of white and colored and
other citizens other than Indians residing in Dade County. So we do
have a big county and we have a big problem.
So I think Indians must be faring a lot better in those areas than
they are in other counties which I am not familiar with as far as how
much aid they get from the counties.
I understand that--I am not a lawyer, but it is my opinion that all
the counties receive in the same amount which has been taken from
parimutuels of racetracks being operated in the State of Florida,
regardless of size of its population, and I understand that one of the
small counties, I heard one time that-I don't know whether they
were joking or not-but people there didn't have to work because
they could all live on the revenue from the racetrack distribution
of parimutuels, that they didn't have to go out and work, because
they received the same amount. I think that is the way the law is so
stipulated. Whether it is true or not, that is my understanding, and
I am pretty sure it was a true statement.
I heard some comment speaking on road-building projects. I have
tried to take enough interest in our politics and operations of our
Government in the State, I would say that a gasoline tax-I think it
is 8 or 9 cents-goes to the upkeep and road-building funds. Every
Indian boy that buys gas is not exempt. He pays for that tax, and
he travels on the same roads regardless of whether Indian or not. So
they are helping, and I think they are entitled to request road moneys
from the counties, and I understand the State already receives a cer-
tain amount of Federal aid proportionately divided among the county
commissioners' budget.
Those have been my experiences, so I don't see where the Indians
need any special services in regard to road-building program because,
for the simple reason, lands in some countries are very, very high in
the State of Florida now, and if they give lands over to counties for
maintenance, they are losing that right, because I understand from
the superintendent that they become public roads.
I think some of you gentlemen probably have different setups in
different States, but in our State we have to go through procedures if
people don't want to give any land, through courts, in order to con-
demn the land, and sometimes we have to have jury trial in order to
obtain those lands, and sometimes it is very expensive.
So I think that Indians have been pretty good donating their lands,
not knowingly, I suppose, for road purposes, and when they are



finished, that everybody is entitled to use those roads. So I can't
see where they are not giving anything or not getting anything in
return. Maybe they don't realize it, but in my opinion they do donate
quite a bit toward the communities in which the reservations lie, and if
they want to use part for public highways, they have been very good
about it in letting people go ahead and build the roads.
In the school problem in my county, which I am trying to confine
myself to because I am most familiar with it, there hasn't been any
problem in our county. We never had any school boards to project
any ideas because the school board is not concerned about the Indian
problem in a big county. They are accepted and admitted into the
schools as any people would be under our State law. There has never
been any question. I don't think our school board has had any prob-
lem, except, my father's camp is located roughly 35 miles from the
nearest school at that time, and we requested the school board to pro-
vide bus transportation out there, and they said it was too far, and
they made a kind of a joke out of it and said, "It is cheaper to build
a school out there for the Seminoles."
I didn't think it was a joking matter and I said, "I am going to have
to put you on notice that as long as you subject me to pay taxes, which
I do, I intend to fight for my rights." And I said, "You are going to
have to give me pretty good cause why you can't provide the services
for people which they are rightly entitled to, these services."
So there was nothing else said, and sent the bus out there, and they
go out there every morning and pick up children, not only Indian chil-
dren but white children as well, who are operating filling stations or
other concessions along the highway. So we don't have any problem
at all in Dade County, and we never have requested any special Gov-
ernment funds in order to pay upkeep of the Seminoles who are at-
tending public schools. All of the children attending schools in Dade
County attend public schools supported by taxpayers.
Of course, everybody has problems, and sometimes it may be experi-
enced, and I think I stated it many times before-sometimes, when
you want to do good things, but if you are going to offer your services
that they are asking for any time they need anything, or offer your
services voluntarily too often, they get in the habit of expecting and
receiving aid or relief or what it may be. Sometimes the good part
and good intention turns into something that is very disastrous some-
times, and even requires sometimes, I think, probably hesitation.
I think we are all human beings w'th an independent mind, and I
think most of us have been trained, which I am grateful for, and I
think most of you gentlemen are to.
So anything I am saying now, I am not directing it to anybody,
and I would like to put that in the record. This is my opinion and
from my experience, and I think that when I testified before the com-
mittee in Washington last March that I stated I bought some property
on the Tamiami Trail. I stated then the valuation was climbing
rapidly, and I think I said everything was worth in the neighborhood
of $50,000. Well, and it keeps climbing, so it has doubled, I would
say that much, and I have made some improvements, and I haven't had
1 red cent from the Federal Government or anybody else. I have
done on my own accord.



I needed money which I didn't have, but I borrowed, got people to
help me out any way I could, just like any businessman would. So I
think it is possible, very possible, for anybody to receive help without
having any special legislation.
I am also familiar that, if these Indians be.turned loose without any
kind of organization that is recognized legally and chartered by the
State, would not be a wise thing to do. I recommend that in Wash-
ington. And I still will say that they should be given some legal entity
where they can be protected through a Board of Directors.
So I never meant to say that Indians are ready to turn them loose
and give everyone a dollar, because a lot of them would not have a
dollar the next day and a lot of them would have most of it.
Of course, we have to use discretion in those matters. Unfortu-
nately, we can't go ahead and manage everybody's personal problems.
That is about all I would like to say. If there is any questions any
of you gentlemen might have in mind, if I can answer, I would be
glad to do it.
Mr. HALEY. Congressman Shuford.
Mr. SHUFORD. Your idea now is that the Seminoles are being pretty
well treated, they are capable of taking care of themselves pretty well,
but that you do not think that they should be turned loose at this par-
ticular time until they receive further training. Is that what I
understand your position to be on it ?
Mr. OSCEOLA. That wasn't what I meant. They are capable of
taking care of their own individual businesses for the simple reason
they do buy automobiles and radios and other appliances on credit,
just the same as everybody else. So they do know how to transact
business in that manner. What I mean, the tribal access of property
should not be turned loose and disposed without any safeguards being
provided for it.
Does that answer your question ?
Mr. HALEY. Dr. Miller, do you have any questions ?
Dr. MILLER. Do you have closed rolls here, or what type of rolls do
you have for the Seminole Indians ?
Mr. OSCEOLA. Rolls?
Dr. MILLER. Rolls of Indians, yes.
Mr. OSCEOLA. I think that probably the superintendent of the agency
would be very qualified to give that, but roughly I would say we have
around 900 Indians in the State of Florida.
Dr. MILLER. But the rolls are not closed as far as you know, others
can qualify ?
Mr. OSCEOLA. No, sir, I don't know of any such step having been
taken to close, and I don't think it would be fair practice to adopt that
policy. I have been against that policy, and I said, if anybody wanted
to drop out voluntarily, then they would have to take action to court
and request that, but I am not in favor of anybody being left out
Dr. MILLER. Most of the folks that spoke here, the women's groups,
the Friends of the Seminoles and so on, and some of the Indian groups
speak of about 25 years before termination, that they shouldhave
Government supervision for 25 years. I wonder how they arrived at
the figure of 25 years. Is that just sort of a hopeful figure or one to
be worked out in the future ?



Mr. OSCEOLA. The 25 years idea is not my idea, and I just simply
couldn't answer it either, because I have asked those people who have
advanced that idea of any definite plans they have which they would
put into effect year by year in order to reach that, to be prepared for
affairs to be terminated, but they said "No," but they said, "We think
we can." It is more or less an idea.
We might say we are building a strawman, I suppose, which is not
in existence.
Dr. MILLER. In other words, it would be a gradual process anyway,
if it were going to be done. Of course, a person like yourself, and I
presume there are others in your position, would want to be liberated
and handle your own affairs, which you do now, do you not ?
Mr. OSCEOLA. Yes, sir, I do. But I mean, I own property indi-
vidually, and I operate freehanded and am not restricted by the Gov-
ernment as to how I can operate.
One of the things, when I opened that village one time, I wanted
to get a rezoning, which was pretty strong in Dade County. I had
to put up pretty good argument in order to establish that particular
enterprise. I said for the purpose we want to get Indians closer, my
wife has volunteered to teach them primary language barrier in order
to break that down, in order to attend the schools. Which has been
5 years ago. So I went down to Dade to have the change because I
wanted to do something different than we have applied, and, "We
zoned you for that particular purpose of schools. Even that partic-
ular business you want to put in cannot go in there. What becomes
of school?"
I said, "At that time was needed, was 5 years ago. No longer needed
for simple reason most of our children didn't know how to speak
English, are learning to, and the young ones now don't have to bother
with them. When they come home, playing cowboys and Indians and
talking English, and when reach school don't have to tell them one
thing, except how to keep clean, wash hands, proper table manners.
So far as teaching English, that is no longer required."
So the board of county commissioners agreed to rezone my place.
So it can be accomplished and children take over, and they are
doing better job than I ever could. It is play for them.
Dr. MILLER. That is a good statement. Thank you.
Mr. ROGERS. I would like to just ask Mike a couple of questions.
Right now you feel you are operating without any restrictions on your
own business in the way you operate. Is that true?
Mr. OSCEOLA. That is my own property.
Mr. ROGERS. Yes. And at present you can operate as an indi-
Mr. OSCEOLA. That is right. I am restricted by a law like every
citizen, yes.
Mr. ROGERS. I understand what you mean. But the fact that the
Government still has certain control over the Indian tribes here has
not interfered with your going out and running your business?
Mr. OSCEOLA. NO, sir. And I wouldn't stand for it.
Mr. ROGERS. That is right. Now I also believe you testified that
you felt there were a great number who were not ready yet to go out
in that business and might need some help. Is that true ?
Mr. OSCEOLA. The thing that I stated, I believe, was that I don't
think the property should be disposed and allotted to individuals.



It should be held in trust or some kind of corporation being formed.
But I think majority of them are capable of transacting own business.
Mr. ROGERS. But you see no objection then to allowing some who
need the help to receive it as long as you, as an individual, or anyone
else could go out and operate a business like he wants to ?
Mr. OSCEOLA. Let's put it on the basis of normal citizens. We do
have that. If you want to go as charity patients, you can get that.
Every citizen is entitled to it. And we also do have what they call a
school lunch program. I believe I am right.
Mr. ROGERS. Yes, that is right.
Mr. OSCEOLA. For those "kids" whose parents are not able to afford
it. They can subscribe to that. They don't have to be Indian. That is
the way I would like to see done, not the status of being Indians, but
being citizens of the county or the State.
Mr. ROGERS. Thank you.
Mr. HALEY. Mike, I would like to ask you a question or two.
On the basis of your statement here today, it does conflict a little
bit with the statement you made in Washington. You realize that
your statement when you were testifying in Washington on Senate
bill 2747 and House bill 7321, if I am correct on that, which provided
for the termination of all services over the Seminole Indians in 3 years.
Is that correct ?
Mr. LEE. Yes.
Mr. HALEY. So when you were testifying in favor of Senate bill
2747 and House bill 7321, if you recall, you testified that you thought
this was a good bill. So what you were testifying to at that particular
time was, as you said in your own testimony right here, that the
Seminole Indians in 3 years were ready for termination.
Mr. OSCEOLA. I think in substance I restated the same, I think. I
think that time element in cooperation could be set for them. And I
think it was a good bill then and still think a good bill, and said, with
minor changes here and there, it can become a good bill and would be
helpful to all peoples concerned. I would still stand on that.
Mr. HALEY. You still say they were good bills and Federal super-
vision over the Seminole Indians should be withdrawn now in ap-
proximately 2 years. Is that correct ? Is that what you want to say
Mr. OSCEOLA. We still have to make it 3 because they haven't
made any advancement, because they haven't been working at it. We
wasn't supposing they would be unprepared and be a year past be-
fore it would come up again when I made the statement.
Mr. HALEY. There is another thing, Mike, that disturbed me in your
testimony, and it was contrary to all other testimony that we had
before the committee. In response to a question asked you as to how
many of the Seminoles could not speak English, you testified flatly
there were only 10.
Mr. OSCEOLA. I said not more than 10, in my opinion. I still say
Mr. HALEY. In other words, it is your statement here now, as it was
then, that not over 10 Seminoles cannot speak good English ?
Mr. OSCEOLA. Cannot speak English or cannot understand it. They
all speak, and I think they can get along all right because I got along
before I spoke English. I wasn't born speaking English. And I
might say, I said before, I didn't go to school until I was almost around



18 when I started in to school and never had the benefit of grammar
school or any private teaching, and I pleaded that I wanted to be
admitted to high school and convinced the principal, and they let me
in, and I am still grateful that I wanted to learn, and I did take
advantage of it. So I just feel like something can be done if we have
the intestinal fortitude. No matter how able we are, sometimes, I say,
if we don't have to, if we can get help, we just let it drag on like that.
Mr. HALEY. Of course, Mike, I realize you have had the advantage
of a high-school education. Is that correct ?
Mr. OSCEOLA. Roughly 21/ to 3 years. A little bit less than 3 years.
Mr. HALEY. You are much better educated than the normal run
of the Seminole young men of your age, are you not?
Mr. OSCEOLA. I don't know. Maybe sometimes I am just a little
bit more stupid than the rest of them. I don't know when to lay down
when I should. I couldn't say I am smarter than the rest of them.
Mr. HALEY. How many of the young men of your age, Mike-and
you said you knew them all-have had the benefit -of even 1 year of
high school?
Mr. OSCEOLA. Congressman, I think that they had that exhibit here
a while ago where they all stood up, and I didn't take count of them,
but I think roughly it might have been 15 to 20. I suppose it was.
Mr. HALEY. Fourteen, I believe. So you still stick with your state-
ment that the Indians in 2 years would be ready for termination of all
Federal control. Is that right ?
Mr. OSCEOLA. Roughly, in substance, I would say that. And if
we haven't accomplished that job in the last 145 years, I don't see how
we can do anything different in any other time. I think we are going-
to have to take some definite concrete action in order to finish the job.
In other words, if we got to build a house, we got to start somewhere.
If we just talk about 25 years, we still wouldn't have it built.
Dr. MILLER. I want to compliment this man for his statement.
Mr. HALEY. He is a smart boy.
Mr. OSCEOLA. Thank you.
Dr. MILLER. This 25 years puzzled me. I think if we make them
wards and give them something every day and feed, house and clothe
them, and they make no efforts on their own, it will still be that way
25 years from now. We will make no progress at all. You have to
take it step by step, just as you are doing. But I think within a few
years' time progress can be made so that everyone will want to be in the-
same business you are in, probably forming a corporation of some kind..
With 200-odd acres of land apiece and livestock and other things, that
could be handled properly, and that would be a business the same as
anyone else would be in. That is what you would like to strive for
is that right?
Mr. OSCEOLA. Yes, sir. And when it comes to develop pasture land,
we got a State agricultural service and a county agricultural service.
Dr. MILLER. You get all that service now?
Mr. OSOEOLA. They can be had if they subscribe to it. I don't know-.
It is a complicated subject sometimes, you know. A lot of people are.
being put in jail every day because they never find out what their'
rights are. I think you.will agree we have a lot of things you are en-
titled to, but if you never request and insist on it, you never get it.
You have to go after it. They are not going to bring it to your door-
step and say, "Here it is."



Dr. MILLER. That is all.
Mr. HALEY. I would just like to make this statement: I am sure that
the distinguished gentleman from Nebraska probably knows more
about the general Indian situation in the United States than probably
any member of the committee. I would just like to call to the atten-
tion of the distinguished gentleman, through, the fact that up until
about 1938 or 1939, somewhere in there, insofar as the Federal Govern-
ment was concerned, it had done practically nothing for our Semi-
nole Indians in Florida. I can see tremendous improvement in those
17 years, but I am afraid, too, that the Federal Government itself has
done very little to bring about that situation.
You heard the gentlemen here from the various school boards, the
County Attorney. We have built roads, we have furnished educa-
tion facilities, and the Federal Government has supplied very little
of that.
Of course, I take now the position that I have taken all along: I, too
want to see the Seminoles where they will fit in the economy and the
social life of my State and their own community. I do not know
whether 25 years is too much, but I do know, and I think it is plain to
be seen, that 3 years is not the proper time, or 2 years. So I just hope
that the gentlemen will assist me in maintaining a program that will
bring to the Seminole Indians of Florida some of the things that they
should have been receiving many, many years ago.
The people of Florida have paid part of the Indian tax bills for
over 100 years, ever since they have been in the Union, and that is only
right and proper; but they received, insofar as assistance to our tribe
here, very little from the Federal Government. I hope the distin-
guished gentleman will bear that in mind. [Applause.]
Dr. MILLER. I think you have done pretty well without it.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you.
Dr. MILLER. I think the Indian tribes who have received the most in
the United States have made the least progress.
Mr. OSCEOLA. May I add another comment? I have a very inde-
pendent mind. I do not wish to quarrel with you or any members of
your staff or anybody else, but I have a very independent mind and am
a keen observer of things. I just don't believe-they mean it in good
faith-in Bill or Charlie can do this. I don't believe in socialism, and
it tends to indoctrinate people to socialism subconsciously, you might
say. And those are the things I am just frightful of, I might say,
for the people to get in that state, and that is what I had in mind
when I said sometimes it requires mental rehabilitation and they
ought to get out of that state. So after 25 years, we might have to
put in another 25-year program.
So those are the things I have in mind when I say I am not being
disagreeable, just speaking the best way I know how, and what I say,
I mean it in good faith. I don't want anybody to take offense to it.
I don't know. I don't entertain anything socialized any way at all.
That is what I meant. Sometimes it turns into bad practice in trying
to do a good thing.
Mr. HALEY. We want to thank you for your testimony. We are
very happy you came. That is what we want you to do-come here
and express your views. You have done that, and this committee
is very happy to hear them, and I hope that you will always con-



tinue to express fearlessly your views, not only for yourself but for
the people of your tribe down here. They have a very fine history
of being very independent, proud people, and they probably could
have received a lot more than they have if they had adopted the
attitude of, you might say, asking. But they have been a proud
people, a great people, and I am very proud of them.
Mr. OSCEOLA. So am I.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much, Mike.
Mr. OSCEOLA. I would like to see them get most of everything, but
in the right way. Thank you.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you, Mike.
Mr. BILL OSCEOLA. We want to ask about the 25 years.
Mr. HALEY. Wait a minute. We have three more witnesses. The
committee is limited as to time, and if we start this rebuttal and so
forth, we are going to run over. I want to allow everybody an oppor-
tunity to be heard.
Dr. MILLER. Let them submit it for the record.
Mr. HALEY. That is what I was going to suggest. Why do you
not submit your statement for the record, and we will put it in the
record so you can answer the 25 years. You may send it to Wash-
ington or have it tomorrow and I will pick it up. I am right here
at the hotel and I will be glad to put it in the record. I do not want
to cut anyone off who wants to speak because we are down here to try
to find out and solve your problems and be helpful. But we do have
to proceed here.
Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. Rev. Henry Cypress.

Mr. SHUFORD (presiding). Will you state your name, please, for
the record ?
Mr. CYPRESS. Henry Cypress, Box 116, LaBelle, Fla.
I am honored to be here, Congressman. I know Jim Haley. I
spoke to him the other day previously.
Collier County group of Seminole Indians reelected me last year
and delegated and sent me to Washington, and they want me to
testify on Seminole problems. They just told me they want to con-
tinue to ask to aid the Federal Government. Some people said 25
more years extended, but I have said in Washington I want a lifetime.
But, I said before, your forefathers and mine fought for a country
to live. At the present time, the United States of America, entire
Seminoles they have 3 pieces of land and 3 reservations. But we
continue to ask extended 25 more and then more years, and the county
groups and a great many State men continue to ask for aid from
Federal Government.
I would say the Seminoles in Collier County are seeking education
and Seminole children go voluntarily by them to school. We not let
them stop. They go to school and learn, but some on the Trail is
against our problems. They have been disturbing our people about it
this year. That cause disturbance better than anything.
I want to add this one here. I, too, object to the white man doing
that. Maybe you read it in Washington. All three reservations are


opposed to disturbing our pence and misleading to our Seminole
They went to white lawyer to do someltlin lg Xfor us in this matter, and
that is our troubles. Therefore we came here.
Collier County groups, they decide to stay continually in some-
body's property. Us longest in Seminoles to give every risk and con-
tinue to stay there.
Me represent county groups, and this they asked me, we want you
to continue in speaking for us in this matter, and said, "We want aid
few more years, maybe extended 25." But I say lifetime, because it is
I have been with the three reservations. I stayed Big Cypress. I am
a preacher. We need education there. But some people said they all
understand English but few did. Therefore we ask extended 25 years.
Then I went to Brighton Reservation. The same thing. We had
native interpreter, needed education. Then I went to other reserva-
tion and they need interpreter, and whenever they come to meeting
like this they got to have interpreter. Therefore they ask extended
to 25 more years. I can see clearly the need for Government super-
vision to continue. My opinion is that the Government in question of
Seminole Reservation should hold it in trust.
I want to add this one, too. When difficult problems come up, I
went to our Mr. Marmon, our agent, and I asked, "We want you to do
something for us in this matter." He said, "I have no authority to
do it."
I said, "Federal Government is higher than any other law."
He said, "I don't have authority to do it."
I just wonder why, when you go back to Washington and recom-
mend to Congressmen, give him authority in fighting for us for this
matter, Mr. Marmon.
Others said, "We need not a superintendent, that not be well and
necessary to." But I said before, and I just wonder, and when you go
back to Washington recommend our agent and give him due authority
in watching over us in these problems.
This small group is disturbing the peace for a long time to pass,
about 6 years on the Trail group. That is bad for us.
Mr. SHUFORD. Anything else?
Mr. CYPRESs. I think that will be all from us.
Mr. SHUFORD. Let me ask you this question: How many Indians in
the two tribes feel someone is disturbing them, the someone else you
speak of is disturbing them ?
Mr. CYPRESS. How many tribes?
Mr. SHUFORD. How many tribes feel this someone is disturbing
them ?
Mr. CYPRESS. I said just only one, Ingram Billy's group. He said,
"I am a chief medicine man." That group. I don't know how many.
I didn't count it, but I hate to go down there and-
Mr. SHUFORD. You do not know how many in that group ?
Mr. SHUFORD. But do they speak for the Seminole Indians ?
Mr. CYPRESS. These speak Seminole.
Mr. SHUFORD. I do not mean do they speak the language, but do they
have any authority to talk for Seminole Indian Tribe ?
Mr. CYPRESS. You mean the



Mr. SHUFORD. The one you speak of now that is disturbing you.
Does he have authority or does that group have authority to speak for
the entire Seminole Tribe ?
Mr. CYPRESS. No, no. That is when he made statement that he went
to Tallahassee to see Governor Collins or that group. That is the
group he speaks for.
Mr. SHUFORD. How many members are in the two goups? How
many Indians are in the two groups up in this section?
Mr. CYPRESS. Entire Florida.
Mr. SHUFORD. How many Indians are in the Big Cypress and the
Dania groups ?
Mr. CYPRESS. Approximately 600.
Dr. MILLER. I understand there are about two or three hundred in
this other group causing some disturbance. I am not sure. I am told
probably around 300.
Mr. CYPRESS. On the Trail. I don't know.
Dr. MILLER. Are there a number of church mission groups working
with the Seminole Indians ?
Mr. CYPRESS. Yes, sir.
Dr. MILLER. Do they have church schools and do they teach English
] and a number of subjects?
Mr. CYPRESS. One in Dania Reservation, small children.
Dr. MILLER. Do they have a little hospital on the Dania Reserva-
Mr. CYPRESS. Yes, they have.
Dr. MILLER. Do they have a nurse and a doctor ?
Mr. CYPRESS. No, they do not have a doctor.
Dr. MILLER. They do have a little hospital there and do have a
church mission ?
1 Dr. MILLER. Is there more than one church mission ?
Mr. CYPRESS. We have 2 regular church within the reservation and
2 missions on Brighton Reservation, and 1 regular church on Big
Mr. SHUFORD. Any questions, Mr. Rogers ?
Mr. SHUFORD. Thank you very much.
Call your next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. J. R. Baumgartner, North Miami, Fla.
Mr. SHUFORD. Give your name for the record.

Mr. BAUMGARTNER. J. R. Baumgartner, North Miami, Fla. I have
lived here since 1925, and at that time there wasn't any Tamiami Trail
and wasn't any Road No. 7. You all know. It just shows how things
have changed since then. Of course, it makes necessary the change
for the Seminoles.
Personally, one of my mest friends is Mike Osceola, and I will tell
you right now I am prejudiced in his favor. I hope it isn't against me.
I will tell you something about himself that he didn't tell ycu, about
his village. There are about 35 adults, 10 sewing machines, 3 elec-




tric sewing machines, 3 electric washing machines, and 4 electric ice
boxes, and I suppose every male adult there has a car, and most of
them work in jobs in Miami of different kinds.
If you take his village as an example, you Vwill see the basis for his
belief. He thinks you can form a corporation that will take their
lands in trust and can administer it then for themselves.
There are other things that I have known from being there so long.
My brother-in-law is on the School Board in Broward County, and
he knows about the school conditions in Dania. They go to the Dania
school, and the only objection there to the Indian children has ever
been simply on account of health. The health conditions are not as
good as among the whites, and we all know why it is. And in Miami
there hasn't been any objection I know of in Musi Isles-that is sort
of a tourist camp where they have concessions and the like in Miami-
the children don't go to school. It is not favored there.
But, as Mike tells you, Dade County runs busses 35 miles out the
Tamiami Trail to pick up Indian children on the trail and whatever
whites there are. So Dade County, I believe, is able to take care of
the problem there.
I know smaller counties have a completely different problem-
Glades and Hendry-because of the small population and the large
reservation acreage. But much of that is marginal land, and it could
be developed by drainage. I am an agriculturalist and very much
interested in drainage. I would like to see more of that done to bene-
fit the State and the Nation.
I will just mention that the problem of roads and schools is very
real, but all of this land is tax-free as far as the State and the Nation
is concerned. But that should be a benefit, but the Indians can't
benefit in one way--they can't build on it. They can't get an FHA
loan to develop their own property. I think perhaps you are familiar
with these things. But I just want to bring out a number of things
that I have seen for myself that the Indians have made definite
The first I heard of electric washing machine was at Dania, and it
was always broken down and never run, but now they have them
running. So when the Indians have the opportunity they make use
of it.
Something that was mentioned by one of the first witnesses here
is that there is a division among them, and there is at least one white
man I know of that goes among them and tells them they should not
be turned loose from the Government and should not send their chil-
dren to school and so forth, and I don't believe he represents any
Indian sentiment. I don't believe he has authority by the Indians
coming in here.
Dr. MILLER. Several other witnesses said there is someone disturb-
ing the peace. I wonder what is meant by that. Maybe somebody
could answer that, Mr. Chairman, somebody spoke about disturbing
the peace of mind.
Mrs. DENVER. I can only say what I have heard since I have been
here. There is a lawyer by the name of Silver, I believe, having con-
fliction between the Indians here among themselves. I think that is
the reason they bring that up. They haven't brought the name in,
and I felt like everyoneshould know what the confliction is and should
try to understand what it is.




He is always being spokesman for the Indians. Does the Indians
tell him what to say ? People should ask him, does the Indians tell
him what to say ? He is telling them what to do in their own mind.
We want the people to benefit, the Indians themselves, not the white
people. We want the Indians to advantage themselves.
Dr. MILLER. That is what you meant by disturbing the peace of
mind ?
Mrs. DENVER. Yes, that is what is meant. I heard so much since
I have been here, and I think you people ought to know. [Applause.]
Mr. MIKE OSCEOLA. I would like to make one correction.
Mr. SHUFORD. Just a minute. Let us finish this witness, Mike.
Is there any thing further you want to say ?
Mr. BAUMGARTNER. I don't think of anything. I will answer any
Mr. SHUFORD. You also have heard of this disturbing element and
the man's name is Mr. Silver?
Mr. SHUFORD. In your opinion and your knowledge of the In-
dians, does he speak for the Seminole Indians ?
Mr. BAUMGARTNER. I think not.
Mr. SHUFORD. Does the group that he has, or his following, you
might say, speak for the Seminole Indians as a whole?
Mr. BAUIMGARTNER. I think not. I think those are the most isolated
and they know the least about what is going on, and he is able to ma-
nipulate them when he is not able to manipulate the ones at Dania
and in Mike's village.
Mr. SHUFORD. Then they were counter, in your opinion, to the in-
terest of the other Indians ?
Mr. BAUMGARTNER. That is my opinion.
Mr. SHUFORD. Any questions, Dr. Miller?
Mr. SHUFORD. Mr. Rogers, do you have any questions?
Mr. SHUFORD. Thank you very much for your statement.
Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Bertram Scott.
Mr. SHUFORD. State your name for the record.

Mr. SCOTT. My name is Bertram Scott, Winter Park, Fla. I am
executive secretary of the Seminole Indian Association of Florida.
I heard some testimony here on which I want to comment.
First, in regard to maintaining law and order on the reservation.
There is one very troublesome matter, particularly on the Big
Cypress Reservation, and that has to do with poaching. White
people are in there hunting continually, and they not only kill the
deer which the Indians need for subsistence, but every now and then
kill an Indian hog and go off with it. We have taken that up with
the Indian Bureau a number of times, and they tell us they cannot
afford to put a warden in there. Of course, it is a Federal reserva-
tion, so they are practically without protection.


Mr. SHUFORD. Do they get any protection from the county officials?
Mr. SCOTT. Not that I have ever heard of.
There is another matter. Mr. Haley is familiar with it. He intro-
duced a bill in the 83d session which would hhve taken care of it, but
it never saw the light of day. That concerns about two-thirds of the
Brighton Reservation, about 27,000 acres of resettlement land, title
for which is still held by the Department of Agriculture.
The Indians have more than $15,000, I believe, impounded in the
Treasury which they cannot touch because it was earned off of those
lands to which the Interior Department does not have title, and con-
sequently the money is dead.
Mr. SHUFORD. In that connection, if you do not mind an interrup-
Mr. SCOTT. No, sir.
Mr. SHUFORD. You say that the Indians earned the money off of
those lands to which title is held by the Department of the Interior.
How did the Indians earn that money ?
Mr. SCOTT. I am not sure of all the details, but they get a good
deal of it about this time of year, or a little earlier, from the cabbage
palm. You know the spring sprouts that are used on Palm Sunday.
Mr. Scorr. They collect those and ship them all over the United
States. Quite a bit of money has come from that and other work
done there.
Mr. SHUFORD. But it was work actually done by the Indians?
Mr. SCOTT. Yes, sir.
Mr. SHUFORD. That was the point.
Mr. SCOTT. They haven't had the money.
Dr. MILLER. Is not the land you are speaking of submarginal land
that the Government bought all over the country, out in my State
of Nebraska as well as down here?
Mr. ScoTT. Yes, sir.
Dr. MILLER. And it really belongs to the Government, does it not?
Mr. SCOTT. It belongs to the Government. Title is still with the
Department of Agriculture. They turned it over to the Interior
almost as soon as the land was obtained. I am told there are Con-
gressmen from other States with Indian population who object to
having that title transferred to the Indians on the ground, perhaps,
the Indians aren't using the land or it is going to waste. I know
nothing of that, but I know this 27,000 acres is vital to the cattle in-
dustry of the Indians.
Dr. MILLER. Which they are using now ?
Mr. ScoTT. Yes, and they have put a lot of money in improvements.
Dr. MILLER. They are getting the full benefit of it.
Mr. ScorT. Yes, sir. They put in fences and stock pens and all
sorts of things, and it is some of the very best land they have. It
would wreck their cattle industry if they were to lose that land. They
are putting it to excellent use.
Now then, this matter of Morton H. Silver, a man, an attorney,
address, 1112 Biscayne Building, Miami 32.
I first came in contact with him 2 years ago. He signs himself as
attorney for the General Council of the Miccosuki Tribe. He encour-
ages them in the belief that the tribe is a sovereign and independent




nation and not subject to the laws of the United States. He tells them
that he is going to get them all the land south of Lake Okeechobee
with the exception of a strip about 10 miles wide along the coast. Just
where he works in that exception I don't know. It doesn't quite hold
water. But he tells them if he can't get it through the Federal Gov-
ernment, he is taking it to the United Nations. He has not only told
them that, he has told us that.
Mr. Emmons wants to see the tribe organized and, goodness knows,
it should be organized. We are introducing a bill in the legislature to
help the Indians, and it would be a great help in getting that through
if we had the tribe officially organized, but it is probably too late for
But Mr. Emmons' idea is to split them into 2 groups because this
group Silver has will simply have nothing to do with the others, and
let them be 2 organizations.
Mr. SHUFORD. Let me interrupt there. How many are there in that
Mr. Scorr. No one knows, sir. Silver claims about 600, which is
absurd. Sometime ago it was estimated there might be from 125
to 200.
Mr. SHUFORD. There are 900 on the roll here ?
Mr. Scorr. Yes, sir, about 918.
Mr. SHUFORD. Six hundred of the nine hundred. Are there more
than 300 in the other 3 tribes?
Mr. Scorr. I think very nearly, sir. There will be about, I would
judge, 750 of the reservation group and perhaps 150 of the Silver
Mr. SHUFORD. All right, I am sorry to interrupt you.
Mr. SCOTT. I am going to ask you gentlemen to do something which
only people speaking as officials of the Government can do. This
Silver business is a serious matter here. I had hoped he would be at
this meeting this afternoon so he could bring it out in the open, but
he hasn't showed up. But you will see him tomorrow. He appeared
in Washington but did not testify. He sat next to Buffalo Tiger, and
when Senator Watkins asked Silver whether he would testify he said,
"No, I am just here as their counsel." He didn't want anything to
say. I was in hopes he would break open the United Nations thing
so they could take him apart. It would have been a lovely show.
But there is no use in our telling the Indians he can't get them all
this land, can't go to the United Nations. They won't believe us, of
course. It must come from you Congressmen or from Mr. Emmons,
and Mr. Emmons so far hasn't come through with it.
If when you see him tomorrow at the meeting you will tell him you
have heard he has stated these things and ask him whether he has or
1 not, he will have to admit it, and then, if you can tell him before
t that whole group how perfectly absurd those claims are and how un-
fair it is to mislead these people, I think it will have more effect than
anything we can do.
Mr. SHUFORD. Dr. Miller, do you have any questions?
Dr. MILLER. I notice he did testify before the joint hearing before
the subcommittees of the Committees on Interior and Insular Affairs,
83d Congress. On page 1078 appears "Statement of Morton Silver,
Lt Attorney, Miami, Fla." I will not repeat the statement but I want
the record to show where it can be found.



Mr. SCOTT. It was very brief. He didn't go into any detail. I was
there in the room when they asked him. He has caused no end of
trouble here. I think in a short time the whole tribe will come to-
gether once that is wiped out. It almost wag before he got into the
Dr. MILLER. Does he do this for a fee?
Mr. ScoTT. He claims he receives no pay. When Mr. Emmons was
here a partner of his appeared-at least he was introduced as a part-
ner-Mr. Alpert, who also said he would take the matter to the World
Court. So Mr. Emmons told me. Mr. Alpert's name does not appear
on Mr. Morton Silver's letterhead as a partner. I don't know where
he comes into the picture.
Mr. SHUFORD. DO you have anything further, Mr. Rogers?
Mr. SCOTT. Insofar as the termination matter is concerned, we are
on record on that, and we have no reason to change our stand on
Mr. SHUFORD. Mr. Haley, do you have any questions ?
Mr. HALEY. No.
Mr. SHUFORD. Thank you very much.
I have a statement here from Mike Osceola. You want this in-
corporated in the record ?
Mr. OSCEOLA. Yes, sir.
Mr. SHUFORD. If there is no objection, it is so ordered, and it will
be made a part of the record.
(The statement referred to follows:)
APRIL 6, 1955.
It has been implicated that all the Trail Indians are represented by Morton
Silver. This is a gross misstatement. The majority of the Tamiami Trail
Indians are in accord with the reservation Indians and are not and have not
ever been represented by Mr. Silver.
Mr. Silver represents these few Trail Indians as a private attorney.
Please make this part of the record.
Mr. SHUFORD. I believe that is all the witnesses you have, Mr.
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. McLinden wishes to testify.
Mr. SHEFORD. State your name for the record.

Mrs. McLINDEN. Regina L. McLinden. I am president of the
United Seminole Affairs of Miami.
I didn't come here to appear as a witness, nor did I come to other
than receiving a wire from Washington stating that there would be a
hearing and should we be interested in coming, we would be welcome.
So I drove down to my women who are officers in this organization,
which is a chartered one. We have now been in effect about 2 years.
But in sitting there I noted many things of which I felt as though
I should get up and defend our organization and also the remarks
made about Morton Silver.
Mr. Silver is a stranger to me other than he has been assisting the
Seminole Nation, the Miccosuki Tribe, for 21/2 years of his own


I '


volition and has not received any pay. I have no affiliation with Mr.
Silver, nor I have I known him-I have known him for many years,
but I have not known him to get any pay. Nor has he sought to
assist them other than one of our local judges, during some condition
that existed on some of the Indians being in trouble, suggested that
they get an attorney and made mention of his name, and that is how he
came into the picture.
Now, Mrs. Agnes Denver, while I appreciate what she said a moment
ago, I don't think the record should hold such remarks as Mrs. Denver
and Mr. Baumgartner and Mr. Bertram Scott have made by stating
and making accusations of the type they do about Mr. Silver. I think
it is definitely up to you men who have been sent here and are doing a
good job, wherever you go, to get these facts when you go directly to
the Trail, and when and if you do, because such remarks in the record
as Mr. Bertram Scott has stated is definitely out of line, by him stating
he is just an ordinary attorney who is possibly getting a fee and is
working without the consent of the tribe.
I have been personally, with my 40 or 50 women, who have devoted
their time, energy, and ability-where we could all go out and make
C a dollar, we are giving our time to try to elevate this little group of
Seminoles, without success. They are a law-abiding little group and
very, very few talk English, and there are 600 on the roll. And when
Mr. Scott makes a statement, and doesn't know, and is twisting one way
and another and is indefinite, it again shows that a remark, unless
it is certain, shouldn't be put in the record. But, of course, that can't
be helped.
There are 600 people in the group. I sat in there when Mr. Emmons
was there, and all the running around that Mr. Emmons did in trying
to see what he could do for them. I personally counted down there 592
Indians, all in full regalia that may have come from other parts out-
side of the chickees around there. I have made personal trips down
there and have two ladies here who are in the organization that have
gone down there to meet and see what is going on. They have a very
able interpreter, Buffalo Tiger, who does the interpreting.
SMr. Silver definitely does not state anything, doesn't do anything,
without getting directions from Buffalo Tiger. None of that group
down there has ever attempted to get a nickel from anybody in Miami.
I personally have interceded for one little crippled man I saw in a
chair. I think a little fellow 28 years old who was in an automobile
accident. I went personally to Jackson Memorial Hospital, thinking
to get some help for him so in a few years he could get back on his
feet. He has been in the chair for years. They told me they had no
money there. That group down there hasn't received 5 cents' aid
from we on the outside, and we want to give them.
But Mike Osceola definitely went to this club and that, got $25
from this and from that, and other places. Certainly they can get
along. That little group of his can get plenty and are not paying
any taxes. Certainly they can get along.
This group is lawabiding, do what they can. They sell their little
wares, waiting and waiting to get help. And Mr. Silver is a fine
talented man, who is a man that does a lot of charity. You can check
with Variety Children's Hospital, you can check him with organiza-
tions. He is not getting any money, has neglected his own business,
just to help them.




When he went to Washington he did speak before your Congress
and it is in the record, as one of the gentlemen stated, because I have
the number with me, and I have read that little book which gives us
that information, which is no secret. But *I think it is very, very
unfair to brand him as' a troublemaker.
I personally wrote a letter to Mr. Haley and told him of the troubles
that have come to me personally from various Indians that Mr.
Marmon was creating a disturbance, and if that was the case, I think
he should investigate, that he should not let it go. I got a letter, wire,
yesterday, stating this hearing was up today and if I cared to go into
it, I could discuss it with the group. But I felt, due to the fact that
tomorrow you will be down in Miami, that will be the proper place
to air our views. That is why I felt as though I couldn't sit there
unless I clarified my own mind, and it just so happens that tonight
in the Chamber of Commerce, where we usually meet, is our usual
monthly meeting. We did invite Mr. Haley. He doesn't know it
because he has been away. It was handled by someone else. We
invited him to come and listen to what we are doing and how we are
doing it, and everything we are doing is being done ethically and
backed by very able Judge Holt, who has handled the charter,
and every one of the women on that board or members have been doing
a splendid job in attempting to get the Government to see the light
of day with these unfortunate people down there who, I can truly
say, only 10 percent have ever been into Miami. They are all down
there just whiling away the time, just living and existing.
Mr. SHUFORD. Let me interrupt right there. You say to get the
Government to do something for these people there. What is it you
mean by getting the Government to do something for them ?
Mrs. McLINDEN. What the Government will do and how it will do
it is a matter of your own discretion. What you-
Mr. SHUFORD. Has your organization made any requests of the
Government for any particular thing?
Mrs. McLINDEN. No, no particular assistance, no. But we have
conferred with Mr. Emmons. I personally and our office were with
Emmons three different days. He was here 4 days and we were with
him 3, and we discussed things at length, and he had seen the entire
group and reviewed every single little detail that went into effect,
and gave more attention than the average man would have under pre-
vailing conditions where you have so many of the various areas to go
to. But we didn't ask for anything, our group. We just want them
to be recognized in the way their plight will be eased. That was
about all.
Dr. MILLER. Do you think those people are ready for self-govern-
Dr. MILLER. I see when Mr. Rogers of Texas asked Mr. Silver,
"Are they capable of self-government ?" said, "Yes."
Mr. Rogers then said:
Without the intervention of the Federal Government?
Mr. SILVER. They are independent. They have sustained themselves. They
have not accepted, to my knowledge, any Federal aid. They are an independent
people, and they have never asked the United States Government for anything.
Mrs. MoLINDEN. Never have they to my knowledge. They are just
a little independent group, as I said, law-abiding. We don't have any
trouble with them.




Dr. MILLER. They stay on the reservation most of the time?
Mrs. MCLINDEN. They stay on the reservation most of the time,
and a very, very few, I think about 2 or 3 of them, go to town. They
have parking lots or something of that sort.
When there is any trouble, which we are bound to find in many
races and creeds and nationalities, where someone will get out of hand,
Mr. Silver comes to the fore, takes them up where they belong, doesn't
charge a fee. And only recently, on a charge of reckless driving, I,
too, interceded with one of the judges so he wouldn't make it very diffi-
cult for them to pay a fee, and they had let that go by, and they are
going to have that null and void, going to have their own little tribal
heads handle such fines.
Mr. SHUFORD. What is the name of your organization?
Mrs. McLINDEN. United Seminole Affairs.
Mr. SHUFORD. How many members are there in that?
Mrs. McLINDEN. How many members. I presume about 55.
Mr. SHUFORD. And you have been in existence-
Mrs. McLINDEN. Since the early part of 1954. That is when we
were chartered. We grouped together. We have women from the
F chamber of commerce, women of the Moose. And 1 am talking of
women who have time, not just a bundle of names. These women
devote their time, give up their time, go and do when we can do it.
Mr. SHUFORD. It is nonsectarian
Mrs. McLINDEN. Yes, anyone can join. We have several men in the
group also, businessmen.
Mr. SHUFORD. Are there any further questions?
Mr. HALEY. NO questions.
Mr. ROGERS. No questions.
Mr. SHUFORD. Thank you very much.
Here is a statement from Bill Osceola on the 25 year termination
period question. If there is no objection, it will be made a part of the
Hearing none, it is so ordered.
(The statement referred to follows:)
To Congressmen:
, We feel that asking for terms of 25 years was or would be permissible to get
organized and have youth to the standards of modern living with the education
so that they may be able to help themselves without Government support-
Senator Miller, have you seen the condition of homes on Government property?
What makes you think the Florida Indians have more help from Government
and with the less progress-if we were help in the last period of 25 years maybe
we wouldn't be asking on terms of 25 years. We feel that we will be able to
be terminated before that period of that time. Not 3 years. 25 years.

To: Congressional Committee.
From: Board of Directors of Three Reservations.
When we asked for 25 years we were surprised by the bill when we first
heard it. But when we had a meeting with Mr. Commissioner, Mr. Emmons,
and talk over problems with him we came to a decision that we maybe ready
before that time, but not 3 years.
We are not asking for charity but help so we can try and help ourselves.
) We are trying-as Mike Osceola said we have not done anything, but we
g have, we are sending our children to school and trying our best to build
houses, the ones who can afford.
62224-55- 6



But we cannot borrow money more than 300 that's why we want Govern-
ment to help us do something to improve our homes and Reservation.
Mr. HALEY. I believe that completes the list of witnesses we had
here today. The committee is running a little bit behind time.
I notice here in the audience a young man who has been my friend
for 30 years, a man who has loved Florida and who has done much for
the development of Florida, who has been interested in all movements
that would make for proper progress in the State. I wonder if he
has something he would like to say, very briefly.
I recognize at this time and call on my good friend Milton R.
Thomas from, LaBelle, Fla. Milton, would you like to say something ?
Very briefly, now.

Mr. THOMAs. I would not believe that all those words were directed
at me. Being a man of a few million words, I don't know why you
should ask me to be brief.
Seriously, gentlemen, I have seen these people for a long time, but
only recently have I become rather intimately acquainted with them.
] feel it would be one of the most inhuman things to cast these people
loose at this time for the very reason that they are most utterly in-
capable right now.
I am glad this lady put her finger on this situation on the disturb-
ance. It is there. We are aware of it. So we are glad it came from
one of them.
It reminds me of the story of the white man and the Indian who
had been hunting, and before they went hunting they decided upon an
agreement to split the bag. So the bag was a turkey and a buzzard.
When they got back the white man said to the Indian, "Joe, true to Our
agreement, we are going to split the bag. You take the buzzard and
I will take the turkey, or I will take the turkey and you take the
If we do anything other than to do our utmost to equip these people
for autonomy, for which they are not yet ready-and it is going to
take a full generation to do it-we are doing the most inhuman and
most brutal thing to these people that can possibly be done.
Other than the economy of the local situation, which has been
touched upon, I think we should concern ourselves with the human
treatment of the people that are sorely in need of it. We can and
must give them assistance.
Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much everybody. We are very happy
to have had you here, and the meeting will now adjourn.
(Whereupon, at 4:20 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned, to re-
convene at the call of the Chair.)



Jimmie Tiger's Camp, Tamiami Trail, Fla.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 1: 50 p. m., at Jimmie
Tiger's Camp, Tamiami Trail, Hon. James A. Haley (chairman)
Mr. HALEY. The committee will come to order.
I would like to say this is a committee formed in accordance with
House Resolution No. 30. For the record, I would like to designate
Sthe Members of the Congress who are here with me today: Congress-
man Shuford of North Carolina and Congressman Miller of Nebraska.
I would like to say we are very happy to have these gentlemen
with us, and it is very nice of them to give up what would normally
be a little rest from their heavy duties in Washington to come down
here and meet with the people of my State, the Seminoles here, and
try to solve their problems. I am sure that I am deeply grateful to
them, and I am sure that the Indians themselves should be.
I think without very much ado we will proceed with the hearings.
First I would like to make a part of the record a brief history of
the Seminole Indians prepared by the Research Division of the
Library of Congress.
(By Stephen A. Langone, History and General Research Division)
The Seminole, before the removal of the main body to Indian Territory, con-
sisted chiefly of descendants of Muscogee (Creeks) and Hitchiti from the lower
Creek towns, with a considerable number of refugees from the upper Creeks
after the Creek war, together with remnants of Yaumasee and other conquered
tribes, Yuchi, and a large Negro element from runaway slaves. When Hawkins
wrote, in 1799, they had 7 towns, which increased to 20 or more as they overran
the peninsula.
While still under Spanish rule the Seminole became involved in hostility
with the United States, particularly in the War of 1812, and again in 1817-18,
the latter being known as the first Seminole war. This war was quelled by
Gen. Andrew Jackson, who invaded Florida with a force exceeding 3,000 men,
as the result of which Spain ceded the territory to the United States in 1819.
By treaty of Fort Moultrie in 1823 the Seminole ceded most of their lands, except-
ing a central reservation; but on account of pressure from the border popula-
tion for their complete 'removal, another treaty was negotiated at Paynes
Landing in 1832, by which they were bound to remove beyond the Mississippi
within 3 years. The treaty was repudiated by a large proportion of the tribe


who, under the leadership of the celebrated Osceola, at once prepared for
resistance. Thus began the second Seminole war in 1835, with the killing of
Emathla, the principal signer of the removal treaty, and of Gen. A. R. Thompson,
who had been instrumental in applying pressure to those who opposed the
arrangement. The war lasted nearly 8 years, ending in August 1842 with the
practical expatriation of the tribe from Florida for the West, but at the cost
of the lives of nearly 1,500 American troops and the expenditure of $20 million.
One incident was the massacre of Maj.. L.Dade's command of 100 men, only 1
man escaping alive. The Seminole Negroes took an active part throughout
the war.
Those removed to Oklahoma were subsequently organized into the Seminole
Nation, as one of the so-called Five Civilized Tribes. In general condition and
advancement they are about on a level with their neighbors and kinsmen of the
Creek Nation. In common with the other tribes they were party to the agree-
ment, and their tribal government came to an end in March 1906. In 1908 they
were reported officially to number 2,138, largely mixed with Negro blood, in
addition to 986 Seminole freedmen. A refugee band of Seminole, or, more
properly, Seminole Negroes, is also on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande In
the neighborhood of Eagle Pass, Tex.

The Seminole Indians of Oklahoma are one of the so-called Five Civilized
Tribes. There were 2,560 Seminoles of one-quarter or more Indian blood within
the Seminole nation, 1,024 being full-bloods. The Seminoles had 59,056 acres:
of restricted lands and 29,444 acres of allotted land. Of this land 5,564 acres
were planted in forage crops, 5,700 in cereals, and 4,050 in gardens and miscella-
neous., Livestock owned by the Seminoles included 182 beef cattle, 600 dairy
cattle, 660 swine. 360 horses, and 7,585 poultry.
Mineral resources on the reservation could not be es(iiiai;ed since all figures
available were for the lands of the Five Civilized Tribes as a unit. The esti-
mated value of the land and mineral resources for the Five Civilized Tribes was
$22,900,000. Three hundred of the Seminoles were salaried, the rest working
for themselves on their own land. It was estimated that 50 percent of the
Seminoles who were salaried worked as unskilled labor, the other half held
positions comparable to the average citizen of the State. This included car-
penters, masons, truck drivers, mechanics, painters, printers, shoe rel;lirinieIn,
teachers, nurses, social workers, and some doctors, lawyers, and engineers.
The Indian Bureau maintained 3 general hospitals in the area of the Fve.
Civilized Tribes available to members of all 5 tribes. Eight full-time physicians
and 49 nurses, 2 part-time physicians and 2 part-time nurses are also employed
at the hospitals. Thirteen other physicians were employed on a contract basis
to hold weekly clinics and to treat special cases in their offices. One of these
physicians was assigned to the Seminole area. There were 2 full-time nurses and
2 part-time doctors employed in the boarding schools. Principal diseases found
among the Seminoles were influenza, malaria, gonorrhea, tuberculosis, pneu-
monia, trachoma, whooping cough, chickenpox, dysentry, and measles. Principal
causes of death were heart disease, tuberculosis, pneumonia, cancer, accidents,
congenital malformation, cerebral hemorrhage, and nephritis.
The Seminole Indians had exactly 100 houses on the reservation; 14 of log,.
82 of frame and 4 of brick or stucco. Eighty Seminoles were considered to have
an insufficiency of clothing. The average agricultural income per family is $615,.
although the Five Civilized Tribes have a total annual income of $1,975,000 from
leases and such. This is not included in the average family income.
Among the Seminoles, 874 had at least an elementary school education. The
actual breakdown was: 21 college graduates, 150 highschool, 703 elementary
school; there were 149 who could not read or write, 125 could not speak English,
and 7 percent of the children between the ages of 6 and 18 were not attending

The Seminole Indians of Florida live on four reservations: Brighton, Big-
Cypress, Dania, and Trail Group. Trail Group is actually a settlement off the
reservation but is always referred to as Trail Group Reservation. Of the 82,

1 All statistics given are for 1950.


Seminoles there are 728 fullbloods. This is a high percentage for an Indian
tribe. Restricted acreage by reservation includes : Brighton 36,924.79, Big Cypress
147,463.03, and Dania 475, the total land of the Seminoles being 184,862.62 acres
within the State of Florida. None of the acreage is devoted to crops of any kind
although much livestock is raised. The Seminoles have 4,835 head of cattle,
85 horses, 1,125 chickens, and 1,300 swine. There are no mineral resources on
the Seminole lands and no timber cutting. Of the total 501 Seminoles over 18
years of age, 376 are salaried: 226 work off the reservation and 150 work on.
The chief occupational skill is common laborer although some do arts and crafts
There is one physician assigned to the Seminoles by the Bureau of Indian
Affairs. Principal di-seases are: malnutrition, leukemia, anemia, and hookworm.
Principal causes of death being: heart disease, malnutrition, flu, pneumonia, still
births, and auto accidents. Major items of the daily diet among the Seminoles
are grits, bacon, tomatoes, fried bread, and wild game. Ninety-six percent of
the houses are the open palmetto-thatched-roof sheds called "Chickees," the rest
are of log, brick, stucco, clay, earth, and stone construction. Clothes worn by
the Seminoles are almost all homemade and in sufficient supply. The average
annual income per family is $1,000.
Of the 501 tribal members over the age of 18, four are highschool graduates,
there are no college graduates, information cannot be found concerning ele-
mentary school graduates. Of the children between ages of 6 and 18, 37 percent
are not attending school.
United States Congress, 82d Congress, 2d session, House Report No. 2503:
Report with respect to the House resolution authorizing the Committee on Inte-
rior and Insular Affairs to conduct an investigation of the Bureau of 'Indian
United States Department of Interior: Report from Kenneth A. Marmon,
Superintnedent, Seminole Indian Agency to the House Committee on Public
Lands. 1950.
United States Congress, Subcommittee on Indian Affairs of the Committee on
Interior and Insular Affairs: Statistical charts regarding the Indians of the
United States.
NOVEMBER 3, 1953.
Dr. MILLER. That might well be a part of the record as of yesterday.
Mr. HALEY. We will make it a part of the record.
Mr. Shuford, are there any remarks that you would like to make at
this time ?
Mr. SHUFORD. I simply would like to say it is a pleasure for me to be
A here with the Seminoles, and if it is possible to work out any plans for
the Seminoles that are beneficial to them, that is the desire of the mem-
bers of the committee here.
a I have Indians in my district. We have the Cherokees. So I know
something of Indians. We are very fond of our Indians up there,
:and it is a pleasure for me to be here with you today.
Thank you, Mr. Haley.
Mr. HALEY. Congressman Miller is probably one of the best in-
formed men in the Congress on Indian affairs. He has served as the
chairman of the Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs. I would
like to ask Dr. Miller at this time if he would share to say anything.
Dr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman, it is good to be down here. It is a little
different setting than we have in Washington-out in the shade of
these trees and out in the open, with 50 or 75 Seminoles and their
medicine men and interpreters here, and their lawyer. It is going to
be an interesting hearing.
I think it is well to come down here at the grass roots, as we some-
times say, and get expressions from the people who cannot come to
Washington to tell their story. We are here to listen and ask a few


I know it is a good thing for the committee to come down. It is a
good thing for these people to see the Members of Congress and to have
someone to whom they may tell their story.
With that, I turn it over to you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you, Congressman Miller.
Our first witness is Sam Jones?
Mr. TIGER. That is right.
Mr. HALEY. Through his interpreter.
Mr. TIGER. I would get it from Jimmie Billy. He is the one who is
going to talk to me for these gentlemen here.
Mr. HALEY. All right. Identify yourself for the record.
Mr. TIGER. Yes. sir.
Mr. HALEY. Your name is
Mr. TIGER. Buffalo Tiger.
Mr. HALEY. You reside here on the Trail?
Mr. TIGER. Yes, I grow up here. Most of my time is spent in town,
downtown Miami. I have parents there and I have parents here.
Some of them live back in the swamps off the roads.
We are very happy for you gentlemen to come down from Washing-
ton, and the problems we have, we do have plenty of them. I know
you gentlemen know as well as I do.
Today we got together and we are going to tell you a few things
what we would like to say, and I hope you will help us out, and then
help ourselves out.
I imagine it would save a lot of problems if you and I and my people
get together and find out what our problem is and try to do something
for us down here.
We are not asking too much, as you know. The reason why it
seems like there is a lot of trouble we have down here in Florida,
while you are staying in Washington, we do have troubles because
there is two split Indians down here. A lot of them live north from
here, west from here, what we call Cow Creek or Muskogee. They
have different ideas than what we have down here. So we have been
trying to get together and set up some kind of rules for them and for
ourselves. It will be easy if you people work with us.
We ourselves down here, we don't feel that money claimed up there
in Washington do us much good because Indian people here in the
Glades, they don't know how to handle money. The problem is worse.
Maybe the people who live on reservations might have, but not us
down here. It's the reason we have said land be better for us. We
like to live on this land, hunt on it, and make farms on it, and few
years from now maybe we can improve our homes to live in. It is
All we want is help from you to recognize people down here, recog-
nize people and reservation. If they want their money to come to
them, we don't have objections for them to get their money, but we
think we have a right to have land here to live on and hunt on, and
this people have asked me to talk to you people just what I say now.



I must go in another thing. This is about agent we have down here,
Indian agent we have down here in south Florida. Mr. Marmon
be with us a long time. Mr. Marmon has been pretty swell guy for
last, oh, last 4 years, anyhow. But some of these Indians, especially
medicine men, they feel they are not getting too much help from him.
They think he is working with just a few fellows instead of helping
the whole tribe down here. So that is why we have been trying to
find out what is easiest way for us to get together for Marmon to
help us, or Marmon could quit his job or put somebody in there to
recognize both sides and get this problem straightened out. It is
not hard if you want to get it straightened out, unless you want In-
dians to fight between themselves over $50 million for land, and it is
not worth it.
We have to get together and talk to you people, and you people
recognize just what we want and you can give them to us. We are
not asking too much. It is for me, for my people.
Now you want me to ask Jimmie Billy what he have to say ?
Mr. HALEY. That is right, ask him what he wants to say.
Mr. TIGER. Jimmie Billy say for his people, all we ask is for land,
and if people live on reservation want the money, they can go ahead
and take the money; we are not going to fight against them. And we
don't want those people fight against us. All we want is hunting
land for our homes and our rights and to be Indians, and he likes
the life to be Indian. That is what he wants, and that is what most
S of them want down here.
So he says, if they want the money, they can go ahead and take the
money and live on reservation. If they want that, we are not going
to bother them, and as long as they don't bother us on this side, but
he says you must recognize those people and us down here are two
separate setups.
Dr. MILLER. May we ask questions as we go along?
Mr. HALEY. If you have any questions, suppose you ask them as
we go along.
Dr. MILLER. You say you want some rights to hunt and fish. Are
you denied that right now ?
Mr. TIGER. We do have our rights in fishing. He knows that, but
he is afraid they might lose that in time.
Dr. MILLER. Why are they afraid?
Mr. TIGER. Because so many people buy land out here and put dif-
ferent things in, stores on highway, and later on maybe they find
a town here.
Dr. MILLER. IS that a part of your reservation along the highway ?
Mr. TIGER. This area we have lived on past hundred years, but you
don't call reservation.
Dr. MILLER. Is it a part of your reservation ?
Dr. MILLER. You don't have a reservation ?
Mr. TIGER. Not right here, no.
Mr. HALEY. Who owns the land here ?
Mr. TIGER. Who owns the land. I think some of it the State and
some places gas company, I suppose. I never go into that deep.
Mr. HALEY. IS this part of the land that is owned by the State of
Florida? Or is this part of the land that is in this Everglades Na-
tional Park?



Mr. TIGER. This piece here [indicating] is supposed to be national
park, right here. But on the other side, it has been bought to many
parties. I can't tell you who bought this or owns it, but we do know
different ones have bought it.
As a matter of fact, I have a friend in Hialeah, and he has bought
lands along here somewhere, but I can't point where that particular
area is.
Dr. MILLER. But you do have the right to hunt and fish out in the
Everglades now ?
Mr. TIGER. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. There is no restriction on that at all?
Mr. TIGER. No.
Dr. MILLER. You do not need to buy a license either ?
Mr. TIGER. No.
Dr. MILLER. YOU can shoot out of season or any time you want to ?
Mr. TIGER. That is what is being done.
Dr. MILLER. Has anyone tried to stop you ?
Mr. TIGER. They have tried to stop us, yes.
Dr. MILLER. Who has tried to stop you ?
Mr. TIGER. Few years ago we had State game warden in Tallahas-
see who used to try to stop the boys, but we make so much fuss over
Dr. MILLER. So you go out and fish and hunt now whenever you
want to in the Everglades?
Mr. TIGER. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. Do you get something once in a while?
Mr. TIGER. Yes, enough to eat on anyhow.
Dr. MILLER. How many people do you represent, Buffalo?
Mr. TIGER. Right now, pretty hard for me to make a count because
sometimes we have a lot of them, and one meeting you don't have too
Dr. MILLER. Would it be the number here-75 ?
Mr. TIGER. I don't even have my sisters and mother here.
Dr. MILLER. How many do you think you represent?
Mr. TIGER. Pretty close to 150 anyway.
Dr. MILLER. 150. These medicine men represent 150 ?
Mr. TIGER. They are more.
Dr. MILLER. They represent more ?
Mr. TIGER. That is right. A lot of them, just like I say now, they
don't know what they really want. They want something. They
want to be left alone-
Dr. MILLER. What kind of help do you want ? You said you wanted
some help. What kind of help do you want? You want to be left
alone; is that it ?
Mr. TIGER. Yes, this is the help you could give if you really want to
help Indians. This is how I am going to put it to you now.
At the end of war you hang your hat here, and you are going back
in Washington and never come back and see if things get straightened
out like supposed to. All the Indians up west has a treaty made.
They got rights. You give them something. What we have now? We
don't have it. We must do something. We been close to you. We
been friends to you. And we accept more things from you, and I am
pretty sure you people going be most happy and we will be too.



Dr. MILLER. What has been taken away from you since that treaty
ial or since you have had that understanding?
,ny Mr. TIGER. Nothing taken away.
ow Dr. MILLER. Not a thing?
Mr. TIGER. No, but we don't have anything belongs to us now.
iht Dr. MILLER. What do you mean, you don't have anything belonging
lar to you, Tiger?
Mr. TIGER. What I mean is this: We have not the treaty made,
;he nothing is going to stand, and that $50 million claim, if every go
through, if money could be spent, all our rights, we have no rights to
do anything.
Dr. MILLER. You claim $50 million?
Mr. TIGER. No, we don't. We did not.
Dr. MILLER. How much do you claim?
Mr. TIGER. We don't want a claim for money; we want a claim for
Dr. MILLER. Claim for land?
Mr. TIGER. That is right.
Dr. MILLER. Have you asked for something before the Indian
Claims Commission for land?
Ls- Mr. TIGER. We have been trying to, but no one will listen to us.
er Mr. SILVER. Excuse me. I think he misunderstands a lot of your
questions. I do not think he understands the Indian Claims Com-
u mission.
Dr. MILLER. I see. There is a certain amount of money held by the
Department. Do you claim some of that money?
Mr. TIGER. No.
Dr. MILLER. You don't claim any of that ?
Mr. TIGER. This people down here don't want money from anybody.
se Dr. MILLER. They could take all of that money and give it to the
3o other tribe and that would be all right with you?
Mr. TIGER. That is all right, yes. We just don't want to have any-
thing to do with money.
Mr. HALEY. All you want is land ?
Mr. TIGER. That is all. You can have other.
Dr. MILLER. How much land do you want ? Or maybe the attorney
can tell us.
Mr. TIGER. That is right.
Dr. MILLER. I wonder how much land you want here. Do you
ly want all of south Florida ?
y Mr. TIGER. If you can give us, we take it.
Dr. MILLER. Including Miami?
d Mr. SILVER. I think that is one of the things we are going to discuss
Slater this afternoon.
Dr. MILLER. I see. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman.
o Mr. HALEY. That is all right. That is what we are here for-to try
to find out and, as I say, try to be helpful.
SMr. SHTUFORD. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know how many
d Indian families live around here.
SMr. TIGER. We have to count the camps, but I am pretty sure about
people live on here-I will ask. About 15 camps right along here now,
e and then a lot of them live out. They are working for lumber com-
S pany.



Mr. SHUFORD. Do you have a regular tribal organization of these
Indians here ?
Mr. TIGER. Yes, we believe we have. We do have. We have had,
and we still have. m
Mr. SHUFORD. Do you have a chief ?
Mr. TIGER. He is a chief [indicating].
Mr. SHUFORD. The medicine man is a chief ? th
Mr. TIGER. That is right. di
Mr. SHUFORD. And you have the four medicine men here. Does
each one of them have a separate tribe or separate family group that he
represents? va
Mr. TIGER. This is what happened: Years ago we used to live ai
apart, too far apart when have corn dance during summertime, middle ac
of summer. Like Muskogee feel it too far to walk to us to have corn bi
dance. So he has his medicine there for his people so his people don't it,
have to walk too far to get to it. n(
He [indicating] had his medicine, he had his corn dance out here. tl
He [indicating] is not too far from people for people to get to him.a
And Osceola is not a medicine man. Other fellow has medicine for li
him. He has got a place close enough so his people can get to him.
Then about every 4 years all these fellows get together to make one
voice, and they go back. You see they all pretty just like here. All
meet every 4 years.
Mr. SHUFORD. About every 4 years ?
Mr. TIGER. Yes.V
Mr. SHUFORD. Now do you have contact with the Indians that livetl
on the reservation at all?
Mr. TIGER. Yes, sometimes they do. They come down here. A lot
of times they come down here for his corn dance, and a lot of them p
go down to his corn dance. They can go out and dance if they want g
Mr. SHUFORD. So really all of the Indians of Florida are Seminoles,
they are all related by a common bond. Is that correct ?
Mr. TIGER. Well, no, it has been split way a few years ago back I
during the war. t
Mr. SHUFORD. What caused the split?
Mr. TIGER. This is the way it happened, the way they taught me:
Indians came down here and, close to Spain, they got mixed up with t
Spanish. Intermarriage, I imagine. And they have changed in lan- 1
guage. That is why Seminole. I am not too good on that, but that
is why our language has been changed, and this Muskogee language t
is what language we used to talk. He still talk right words of Indian
language, but Seminole language we speaking today as it has been
just made up.
Mr. SHUFORD. Sort of a corruption of the old language ?
Mr. TIGER. That is right.
Mr. SHUFORD. But as far as the people are concerned, you are all
Seminoles, are you not?
Mr. TIGER. No, we are not all Seminoles, no. I can see why it is
not all Seminoles. Something happened during those years, we all
feel different. I feel different, and he might have son, he probably feel
different than I do. If you are thinking about blood now, they are
probably all alike.

b 1



Mr. SIIUFORD. They are all the same ?
Mr. TIGER. Yes.
Mr. SIHUFORD. And they are all the same tribe, except different ele-
ments in the tribe?
Mr. TIGER. That is right.
Mr. SHUFORD. Why do you say your feeling here is different from
the feeling of the Indians on the reservations? What caused that
difference in feeling?
Mr. TIGER. Let me ask him.
He says not really much difference, except the people live on reser-
vations, they have accepted a lot of things we don't agree with them,
and they accept churches, and they wanted money, and they want to
accept a lot of white people's ways. They are not really against that,
but I mean it is just what they want. They should go ahead and take
it. And it is only thing different that the people down here they are
not accepting too much from white man's way. They are not against
them, they just want to be Indians. They want to be just the way they
are now and as long as they can. In other words, you have your be-
liefs, and then they have, and there is no question to that. That is all.
Mr. SHUFORD. I think that is all.
Mr. HALEY. Is there anything else that they want to say ?
Mr. TIGER. I think that is all.
Ingram Billy, he say, just as he say a while ago, he say we know
we are not supposed to take money from men from Government from
Washington. Years back we were told we were not supposed to take
them, if you just leave land alone so we could live on. That is what
we want.
Mr. SHUFORD. I just want to ask one question. Where do you pro-
pose this land to be, how shall it be given to you, to whom shall it be
given, and where shall it come from?
Mr. SILVER. Do you understand that?
Mr. TIGER. I do understand that. Let me ask him.
Ingram Billy, he say this have to go back years during wartime.
The last treaty they made when defeated by general from Washing-
ton. Since then they have a little war here, and they fighting and
killing here, but things seem like never straighten out like supposed to.
But then they did promise them land here that did belong to them
that they could live on. So they remember that. He says he thinks,
he is pretty sure still have this land so you could go ahead-he call
himself "us"-the Indians. He said the lands should come to us for
them to live on.
Mr. HALEY. When you speak of the war, you do not designate it.
Of course, you are talking about the Seminole war ?
Mr. TIGER. That is right.
Mr. HALEY. That is the place this stems from, the Seminole war?
Mr. TIGER. Yes.
Mr. HALEY. You know we have so many wars.
Mr. Shuford, had you finished?
Mr. HALEY. Dr. Miller, do you have any questions?
Dr. MILLER. I notice, Tiger, when you were in Washington in March
of 1954 you thought at the time you represented about 300 Indians,
) and today you say about 150.




Mr. SILVER. I think he misunderstood the question. He, himself,
but he did not speak for the rest of the Council.
Dr. MILLER. The Council together represents about 300 and you
represent 150; is that right? The question was asked you there
Mr. TIGER. I remember.
Dr. MILLER. How many people do you speak for, Buffalo Tiger?
About 300 ?
Mr. TIGER. That is right. I still do. When I speak for what In-
dians want, I speak for that many because most of them don't know
what they want.
Dr. MILLER. YOU speak for this group here?
Mr. TIGER. Right now I do, yes.
Dr. MILLER. About three hundred ?
Mr. TIGER. That is right.
Dr. MILLER. And of the Indian population, I think that Mr. Silver
said at that time of the 300 adults they represent really a majority of
the adult Indians of Florida, because from what they tell-me, at
least half of the Indian population in Florida are children under 16
years of age. Do you think that is still about right ?
Mr. TIGER. Right. A lot of little ones.
Dr. MILLER. Mrs. Sheldon, who testified at the same time, said:
In 1937 there were only three Seminole children in school. There are now
164 in school. Some 70 or 80 are not in any school. Some of them live too
far away to go to school. There are no shcool facilities for them. Only four
students have finished high school.
Then there is quite a group, 164 in school, and according to her
testimony, about 70 or 80 are not in school. Does that correspond to
your thinking? You or Mr. Silver? Is that correct, Mr. Silver?
Mr. SILVER. I don't think Buffalo would understand what you mean,
because the significance of that testimony is that it would only be a
total of 78 children not in school. But I don't believe that any person
could go out and count the number of Seminole children that are not
in school.
Mr. TIGER. I know I can't.
Mr. SILVER. You would have to know how many children there were
altogether and take the number that were in school and subtract it.
So I don't see how they could arrive at it.
Dr. MILLER. They should know about how many are in school now-
Mr. TIGER. Mr. Marmon would probably know more.
Dr. MILLER. In 1937 there were 164.
Mr. TIGER. I understand there are less in school today than last
year because of some difficulty with school facilities.
Dr. MILLER. Then I understand, Buffalo, you really don't want
anything from government, you sort of want to be left alone and
have a place to hunt and fish; and you don't want Uncle Sam to be
down here telling you what to do. You don't want to accept any
money from them, and you just want to go your own way like you
did 150 years ago. Is that what these chiefs want to do ?
Mr. TIGER. That is what they want.
Dr. MILLER. Do they not want their children to go to school
: : : ... . t . .


ei, Mr. TIGER. They don't want it, but some day I think probably
change; but right now, just like I say, they don't really trust you
eou people. That is why.
ere Dr. MILLER. You are married?
Mr. TIGER. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. You have some children?
,r Mr. TIGER. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. They go to school; do they not ?
ln- Mr. TIGER. Yes.
ow Dr. MILLER. Where do you live?
Mr. TIGER. Hialeah.
Dr. MILLER. Down at the racetrack place ?
Mr. TIGER. Yes; still do.
Dr. MILLER. Do you work down there ?
Mr. TIGER. No.
rer Dr. MILLER. Do these adult Indians work any place? Or would
of you know? Can you find out?
at Mr. TIGER. Most of them hunt; most of them farm and hunt.
16 Dr. MILLER. And make a little money at that ?
Mr. TIGER. No; they don't make too much money. Some of them
work. They make a few dollars. And hunting now they make a
few dollars, just enough to buy material.
)w Dr. MILLER. I think that is all.
:oo Mr. SHUFORD. There is one more question I would like to ask
ur Buffalo. If you got the land, to whom would you deed the land?
Have you any plans for that ?
er Mr. TIGER. I don't know now. The way they sound, their land
to should be-
Mr. SHUFORD. In other words, would each one want an individual
n, share of land?
a Mr. TIGER. No; they don't want it that way. They don't want it.
n They want the tribal council should have the land so that all of us
t can live on it and all hunt on it. They don't want chopped up.
Mr. SHUFORD. Would they all stay on it ?
Mir. TIGER. All stay on it and hunt on it.
e r. SHUFORD. They would not go over to Dania and up to Brighton 2
t. Mr. TIGER. They don't want. They got homes here and farms
here. That is what they want. They have been here the past 150
Mr. SILVER. May I clarify?
Mr. SILVER. When you say "all stay on the land," did you mean
they might go into the city to live, say, for a month or so ?
Mr. SHUFORD. No, not that. I mean actually live on the lands.
Mr. HALEY. Have a domicile?
Mr. SHUFORD. Have a domicile, a home on the land.
e Mr. HALEY. Are there any further questions?
Y Is there anything further that you think any of the chiefs, any
Sof the medicine men, anyone here wants to say ?
Mr. TIGER. I see.
Mr. HALEY. What, does Sam Jones say ?
Mr.'TIGER. He says they are medicine men, they have own medicine
t to hold people together, and have medicine as long as Indian live,



and in this job here they have and have done their duty for the Indian
Dr. MILLER. I am a doctor too, so I am interested in this medicine
business. I think I missed something when I went to school that
I probably should have had. When you get sick, do you go to the
medicine man or to the doctor down in Miami?
Mr. TIGER. Sometimes to medicine man, sometimes to doctor.
Dr. MILLER. You have a little bundle fixed up when you are born
that is supposed to be kept sacred and carried with you.
Mr. TIGER. Some help.
Dr. MILLER. I think it does help if you think it does.
Mr. TIGER. Pretty good, though.
Dr. MILLER. I am not making fun of them. They have their
place. When you get sick, do you not have a doctor down in Miami
under contract that you can go to, some doctor that takes care of you
and your family, if you want him to?
Mr. TIGER. Here is the gentleman who could answer that question.
Dr. MILLER. Does not the Indian Bureau have some medical facili-
ties for these people when they get really sick?

Mr. MARMON. Mr. Congressman, these folks on the Trail have the
same opportunity as all the Seminoles have of going to Jackson
Memorial Hospital. We have a contract with the County Com-
missioners of Dade County to accept all Seminoles residing in Dade
or Collier County, and that agreement and contract was made about
3 years ago, which provides that any Seminole of Florida coming
there, the Government or Indian Service would pay the bill, which
is $15 per day per person.
Dr. MILLER. Do some of them go to the hospital ?
Mr. MARMON. Yes, they do.
Dr. MILLER. Do you know how many in the course of a year ?
Mr. MARMON. That varies. I think in the course of a year they
would probably be in the neighborhood of around 45 or 50.
Dr. MILLER. 45 or 50 ?
Mr. MARMON. In a year, some time or other, yes.
Dr. MILLER. The medicine man might get mad at you for doing
Mr. MARMON. No, we have an understanding-
Dr. MILLER. You understand me, Billy?
Mr. MARMON. We tell them not to keep them too long for the white
doctor perhaps would not be able to take care of them.
Dr. MILLER. I think it is well that you do that.
I want to ask one other question. Do some of these people get
old-age assistance or ADC assistance under the State laws? Are
they eligible?
Mr. MARMON. Yes, they are eligible.
Dr. MILLER. How many Indians in the 2 or 3 groups might be
getting it?




Mr. MARMON. In all of the Seminoles, we have approximately 38,
I believe, receiving some type of old-age, ADC, and blind aid. Jimmie
here, for example, receives ADC.
Dr. MILLER. He receives ADC ?
Mr. MARMON. Right.
Dr. MILLER. How much does that amount to ?
Mr. MARMON. I don't know what it is. It varies from time to
Dr. MILLER. Is Jimmie crippled or something?
Mr. MARMON. He was injured in an automobile wreck and we had
him hospitalized and taken care of.
Dr. MILLER. Did your boys serve in the last war? Of course, they
did. They had a good record in the last war; did they not ?
Mr. SILVER. They were not subject to the draft.
Mr. TIGER. Some fought.
Dr. MILLER. Two or three volunteered ?
Mr. TIGER. Some of them did.
Dr. MILLER. I guess that is all.
Mr. JIMMIE. I don't receive money from the people.
Dr. MILLER. How do you get your money ?
Mr. JIMMIE. I work my own, hut work.
Dr. MILLER. Don't you get a check from the Government ?
Mr. DOCTOR. He makes souvenirs like the rest of them.
Dr. MILLER. How much money can you make making souvenirs,
Mr. JIMMIE. Not much.
Dr. MILLER. How much ?
Mr. DOCTOR. $10 or $5.
Dr. MILLER. A day or a week?
Mr. DOCTOR. A week.
Dr. MILLER. That is better than getting it from somebody-much
better. I congratulate you.
Mr. DOCTOR. That is right.
Mr. HALEY. IS that all?
Mr. TIGER. That is all from us.
Mr. HALEY. Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Morton Silver.
Mr. HALEY. Mr. Silver, do you want to identify yourself for the
record? Then feel at liberty to make any statement you might
care to.

Mr. SILVER. I would like to say that I understand from-
Mr. HALEY. Identify yourself for the record first. Give your name
and where you live.
Mr. SILVER. My name is Morton H. Silver. I am an attorney,
Florida Bar Association, and I live in Dade County outside the city
limits of Miami. I have been representing the council here for ap-
proximately 3 years.
I would like to make a few comments about some of the things that
I heard.

________ i


I understand that you all had a meeting up in Clewiston and there
was quite a bit of adverse criticism about me up there and a lot of
derogatory remarks made from people I never met before and never
heard of. But I would like to say I think it's a shame that personali-
ties have to be brought into a matter that affects solely Indians, espe-
cially my personality, inasmuch as I am their attorney and merely
representing them and not looking for any quarrel with any particu-
lar individual, which I feel there are several individuals who are self-
seekers that do not have the particular interests of all the Indians at
I would like to say that I feel that a lot of the problems we have
had up to the present time have not been what these Indians want,
but who they are, and I would like to put into the record some quotes
from various writers and anthropologists, if I may, with the permis-
sion of the Congressmen.
Mr. HALEY. Go right ahead. Make any kind of a statement you
would like to.
Mr. SILVER. I have a book here written by Wilford T. Neal, who
is not an anthropologist, but a heroologist, but does quite a bit of
Indian work and works for Ross Allen up in Silver Springs, Fla.
I believe he has about one of the most enlightening writings I have
found on Seminole Indians-at least, he comes closer than anybody
.else in understanding their problems and understanding their customs.
But even his book is not quite accurate from what little I know and
there is quite a bit that they won't tell me. But I would like to read
3 paragraphs here, beginning on page 54, under the heading "Seminole
:Chiefs," and this is dealing with their tribal organization.
I want to read this because I understand there seem to be quite a
few Government men, representatives and officials, who don't know
who the council is or who the legal tribal organization is. Of course,
there is some question of who the recognized tribal authority is, and )
I won't go into the reasons why they are not officially recognized.
There have been no recognized Seminole chiefs for many years. Micenope, head
chief during the Seminole wars, was probably the last man to exert influence over
both the Muskogee and Hitchiti elements of the tribe. Such men as Osceloa and
Cocoche the wildcat were leaders but not chiefs in the usual sense. Many
present-day Seminoles consider Billy Bow Legs as being the last chief of the
tribe. He submitted to removal in 1858.
In recent years Seminoles have been governed by 3 tribal councils, 1 for the
Cow Creek Indians, another for the Dania group, and a third for the remainder of
the population.
Dr. MILLER. Is that correct?
Mr. SILVER. I will explain when I finish that it is. Today it is a
little different. It may have been in 1952 when this was published.
Each council member has an equal voice in all decisions made, although each
council has one man who is recognized as the leader. No single Indian could
really be called a Seminole chief today, even though the newspapers often confer
the title on some of the Osceolas or other prominent Seminoles.
The Seminoles are understandably secretive about the tribal council. Each
council meets annually a day or two before the green corn dance, except in the
-case of the Dania group, which does not hold a dance. No outsider is permitted
to attend and no white man knows how much power the council wields.
That is true, that statement.
The general opinion is that in the last few years severe punishments have not
been meted but. However, as late as 1938 a Seminole council carried out a
*death sentence.




My understanding of their council today is that there are three
medicine councils. One council is headed by Ingram Billy, who they
consider to be the leading medicine man of all three medicine councils.
The second medicine council is headed by Sam Jones, and the third
medicine council, there seems to be some dispute today as to who the
medicine man is, because there have been some little difficulties come
up, and I don't interfere in their personal problems, and they only
tell me what they want me to know. But I do understand there was
a medicine man named John Osceola, who apparently was breaking
away from the tribal traditions. From what I understand, his medi-
cine is going to be turned over to somebody else, or is in the process of,.
however they do it.
But those three medicine councils do sit together as a general
council. Actually they have a separate corn dance, as I understand
it, and that is more of necessity, for the reason that a lot of Indians
live in areas that are remote and couldn't go to one corn dance. So,
as I understand it, that is why they have more than one medicine
man, so each medicine man can permit Indians in his area to partici-
pate in their culture.
As to the exact number of Indians that follow this council, I don't
believe that anyone knows. I don't even know if you could make an
accurate estimate, except for the fact, if you go to a green-corn dance
in that general area, you will find, as I understand, that not only all
the Indians living off the reservations participate in it, but a good per-
centage of the Indians who live on the reservations participate in it.
Now actually, it is the corn-dance council that is the governing body
of the Indians. That is, you might say, the influencing part over the
Mr. HALEY. In other words, it is your understanding of the green-
corn dance that it would be the gathering of the Indians of a particular
community or area to formulate the policy of that particular group ?
Mr. SILVER. Yes.
Mr. HALEY. I see.
Mr. SHUFORD. Let me ask another question. Does each one of the
medicine men have a green-corn-dance meeting ?
Mr. SILVER. Ingram Billy and Frank Charley and Jimmie Billy
are all on the same medicine council.
Mr. SHUFORD. All on the same?
Mr. SILVER. That is right. Sam Jones-
Mr. SHUFORD. Is this man [indicating] a junior medicine man?
Mr. SILVER. He is a junior medicine man.
Mr. SHUFORD. IS he on the council, too?
Mr. SILVER. Yes.
Mr. SHUFORD. So there are four on the council?
Mr. SILVER. There are more members. You see, the council is not
only made up of just medicine men.
Mr. SHUFORD. I know, but four medicine men on the council, and
they are the chiefs?
Mr. SILVER. Of course, we use the word "chief." It is an alien word
to the Indian. Our terminology often conflicts with them.
Mr. HALEY. The medicine man is the-
Mr. SILVER. Leader.
Mr. HALEY. The actual leader; there is no chief. Is that correct ?
Mr. SILVER. That is right.


Mr. HALEY. Let me get this straight. Sam Jones represents one
Mr. SILVER. Yes.
Mr. HALEY. And the other 3 here represent just 1 group; is that
Mr. SILVER. Is that right?
Mr. TIGER. That is right.
Mr. SILVER. And a third group-
Mr. HALEY. Is not represented?
Mr. SILVER. IS not here today.
Mr. SHUFORD. Where do they live?
Mr. SILVER. They live off over in here [indicating] today. Some
of them live in Miami.
Mr. SHUFORD. Are they on the reservation ?
Mr. SILVER. You see, it is hard to say where they are because, as you
have probably been told, this is very complicated. There are a lot of
Indians on the reservation who follow the council and participate
Mr. SHUFORD. Follow these gentlemen here?
Mr. SILVER. Follow these gentlemen here. Some of them. And they
are constantly moving on the reservation and off the reservation.
They won't say there at any one time. These people out here, for
instance, m mamaintain 2 or 3 homes, may maintain a home here in
the Everglades, may maintain 1 on the outskirts of the city and may
maintain 1 somewhere else. But they are constantly moving around,
so you can never say they are on the reservation or they are off the
reservation. But this gentleman here, Mr. Neal, as well as other people
who have made a study of it, come to the conclusion that there are
more Indians living off the reservation than live on the reservation.
That has been my impression and understanding that a majority of
them do live off of the reservation.
There is just one other item I would like to read here. This is from
the Department of the Interior. I don't know the exact date it was
published. It is entitled "United States Department of the Interior,
Office of Indian Affairs, Washington." It has got a number on the
upper right-hand corner-6308.
Mr. HALEY. IS there a date on that ?
Mr. SILVER. I find no date. I believe I got this up at the Indian
agency a few years ago. The most significant part, or the thing that
means something to you gentlemen, will be the paragraph entitled
"Organizations" on page 12:
The Seminoles of Florida are not organized under the Indian Reorganization
Act. There are two councils which might be termed "political," organized for
many years. These councils, consisting of older men and medicine men, plan
and officate at the green-corn dances held each year. One council is organized
by the Cow Creek and the other is by the Miccosuki. These council members
usually serve for life.
That has been the only recognized legal organization for the Semi-
noles and, frankly, personally, I don't understand why and where all
this confusion comes from as to who the council is.
When Commissioner Emmons came down from Washington with
Mr. Tozier, I don't know what they must have had in their minds or
who they thought the Indians were, but I know they left with a differ-


ent feeling. But they certainly were not very well informed before
they came down. They certainly didn't know about the council.
Mr. Louis Capron, who is a well-known writer from West Palm
Beach and connected with the Smithsonian Institute, I understand,
has written quite a few articles on medicine men, and he knows their
own council is these medicine men. It is the only council, the only
political organization they ever had.
We understand, we know, they are in the process of trying to or-
ganize some of these Indians on the reservations and, frankly, the
council feels-I see a copy of the book I left up there a year ago.
That is where it went. Frankly, they don't care about the Indians
on the reservation organizing, although it does hurt their feelings
because, actually, any government would not feel good if their own
people were organizing against them. But they do feel it is one step
closer to a solution of their problems here, so they haven't raised any
serious objection to these Indians living on the reservation who want
to organize.
But there is one thing that I think the United States Government
should understand about this organization that is being formed up
on the reservation. They are patterning it after a white man's organ-
ization, a board of directors; majority vote, voting, and things of that
nature. To my knowledge of the Indians who live on the reservation,
there are still a lot of them that still think and believe the same way
these people do, and they don't understand voting. They don't under-
stand what it means.
I have been told-as I say, this is hearsay, but it is the only thing I
can get from the Indians-that a lot of them don't understand these
meetings they go to up there. They rely on the Indians that speak
English, and unfortunately those Indians I have met that speak Eng-
lish, I wouldn't want to represent me, and I don't think they would
want them to represent them. I know they have had a lot of trouble
picking representatives because Cory Osceola-you may be familiar
with him-was once their spokesman, and I understand he was fired
from the job because he was mixing a little bit of his own opinion in
with some opinions of the medicine men. Other Indians were inter-
preters. They finally picked Buffalo Tiger as interpreter, and,
frankly, I don't know how much they trust Buffalo Tiger, because they
have an assistant interpreter, Billy Doctor over here. I didn't know
whether he was picked to assist Buffalo or just to check up on him.
Maybe he knows better than I do.
Mr. HALEY. Let us say probably he was picked to assist Buffalo.
Mr. DOCTOR. That is about right.
Mr. SILVER. The point is the vast majority of Indians do not under-
stand what is going on or what is happening to them. So this organ-
ization being formed on the reservation, I would look upon it with a
lot of scrutiny as to any opinions they voice as being the opinions of
those Indians on the reservation.
Dr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. HALEY. Dr. Miller.
Dr. MILLER. I wonder if I could ask a couple of questions of Mr.
How long have you been representing the Indians ?
Mr. SILVER. Roughly 3 years.


Dr. MILLER. You say you are their attorney ?
Mr. SILVER. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. Have you been accepted as their attorney by the
Indian Bureau of the Department?
Mr. SILVER. Well
Dr. MILLER. Have you filed any application?
Mr. SILVER. NO, I haven't filed any application with the Indian
Bureau. They didn't want me to.
Dr. MILLER. You do not think that is necessary in order to repre-
sent them officially ?
Mr. SILVER. NO. Well, officially, in what capacity, dealing with the
Indian Bureau?
Dr. MILLER. With the Indian Bureau; yes.
Mr. SILVER. We are not dealing with the Indian Bureau.
Dr. MILLER. How can you represent them officially before the Gov-
ernment if you are not accepted by the Indian Bureau?
Mr. SILVER. To my knowledge, as an attorney, I can represent any-
body without getting permission of the United States Government.
Dr. MILLER. And do you get paid for your services?
Mr. SILVER. NO; I am not being paid.
Dr. MILLER. It is an eleemosynary institution for you ?
Mr. SILVER. If you will define the word for me.
Dr. MILLER. I suppose that is doing it for the love of charity and
the love of being of service to humanity, maybe.
Mr. SILVER. That is right.
Dr. MILLER. And you are sure you don't get any money or haven't
been paid any money by anyone ?
Mr. SILVER. I won't say they haven't turned any money over to me
for expenses.
Dr. MILLER. How much money have they paid to you for expenses ?
You came up to Washington.
Mr. SILVER. That money was handled by Jimmie Billy.
Dr. MILLER. You say you would not say they had not turned any
money over to you for expenses.
Mr. SILVER. I think over the past 3 years they may have turned over
to me-do you remember ?-about $100 and--
Dr. MILLER. Can you ask the chiefs here, Buffalo, how much money
they paid Mr. Silver?
Mr. TIGER. We didn't pay him. They usually pay expenses like
telephone calls.
Mr. SILVER. I have a record somewhere.
Dr. MILLER. What would you think it amounts to ?
Mr. TIGER. I think would be about $300 altogether.
Dr. MILLER. One year or three years?
Mr. TIGER. Altogether.
Mr. SILVER. I know they are a little lagging because I have a bill
this month from about $100.
Dr. MILLER. You are right when you say there has been some gossip
or some talk about some conflict among the Indian tribes. I guess
you are aware of that conflict between this group and the group up at
the lake.
Mr. SILVER. That is right.


Dr. MILLER. And someone is adding a little fuel to the fire all the
time. Do you think you might be stoking the fire a little bit by keep-
ing them from getting together?
Mr. SILVER. I have been accused of that, I guess, ever since I first
made my first trip to Dania. I know you will have to admit that
when you go to an attorney and he advises you of your rights, that
the opposition or the people that don't agree with those rights are
not going to be happy.
Dr. MILLER. Sure.
Mr. SILVER. Just the same as a lawsuit. It would sound funny if
the defendant went into the judge and said, "I agree with the plain-
tiff lawyer."
Dr. MILLER. Is it not true you told these people Congress was about
to take away some of their rights and they ought to be protected? Do
you remember making some statement like that ?
Mr. SILVER. I don't recall making a statement like that.
Dr. MILLER. I think you have-
Mr. SILVER. You mean that is a verbatim statement I was supposed
to have made-that Congress was going to take away some rights ?
Dr. MILLER. I think you have something in here. I notice in your
Mr. TIGER. The time the bill was supposed to pass.
Dr. MILLER. Your testimony was the general council authorized
its emissary, you, to speak to the United States Congress so that no
more laws would be passed at this time affecting their tribe until Con-
gress has a better understanding of the problems of the Seminole
Then further down on page 1080: "There has been filed before the
Indian Claims Commission in your Government, without our author-
ity, a claim, supposedly by us, and supposedly to compensate our tribe
with money for lands taken from us by the United States Government
in the past." Did you make that statement before the committee, or
do you remember?
Mr. SILVER. Isn't that the Buckskin Declaration you are reading
from ?
Dr. MILLER. It is a statement you filed before the joint subcommit-
tees on March 1, 1954, in Washington.
Mr. SILVER. I believe you are referring to a declaration.
Dr. MILLER. One addressed to the President of the United States.
Mr. SILVER. That was the Buckskin Declaration filed and delivered
to the White House by the general council. I merely introduced it
in the record to show the feelings of these people, which had been re-
duced to writing as best we could.
Dr. MILLER. You have urged them not to file any claims, I suppose,
that there are no claims they need to file. Or are you asking them to
file claims before the Indian Commission ?
Mr. SILVER. The only dealings we have had with the Indian Claims
Commission have been to quash the $50 million claim that is up there.
That is the only dealing we have had with the Indian Claims Com-
mission, and to my knowledge we have a hearing that is scheduled for
May 3 on our motion tq quash. I don't know whether you are aware
of that.
Dr. MILLER. Yes, I am.



Last August one of the Indians died out here, I believe. You were
out here at the time when one of the Indians died and had something
to do with it ?
Mr. SILVER. August?
Dr. MILLER. Last August.
Mr. SILVER. What was his name ?
Dr. MILLER. I believe Osceola.
Mr. SILVER. George Osceola?
Dr. MILLER. George Osceola.
Mr. SILVER. Yes. I believe he died up in Brighton. I am looking
for my copy of that, but that is all right. I understood he died up in
Brighton Reservation.
Dr. MILLER. Were you there at the time they came out to get the
Mr. SILVER. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. Did you bring TV out with you there?
Mr. SILVER. I drove out with a friend of mine who is a member of
the WTJA staff. He wanted to take some pictures. If you want to go
into what happened, I would be very happy.
Dr. MILLER. Did you think it undemocratic for two brothers to take
the body of their father and give it a Christian burial?
Mr. SILVER. Would you like me to start from the beginning or are
you starting in the middle ?
Dr. MILLER. I am just using some things that came to me.
Mr. SILVER. All right. I don't mind answering them.
Dr. MILLER. You said it was very undemocratic for them to take
the body.
Mr. SILVER. Don't know exactly what you are referring to. There
were some things done up there that were undemocratic.
Dr. MILLER. Such as what?
Mr. SILVER. I will start with the story.
Dr. MILLER. All right.
Mr. SILVER. We read in the newspaper where George Osceola, who
was one of their leading councilmen had died, and the people out
here think very highly of George. He went up to Washington with
them when they presented their Buckskin Declaration. They read
they didn't know how to dispose of the body, something to the effect
they had it in the back of a garage up in Dania. That morning I
called the Dania agency by telephone and spoke with Mr. Williams,
who is now deceased. I told Mr. Williams, I asked Mr. Williams
whether or not any arrangements had been made for disposing of
George Osceola, and he said, "No."
I said, "Well, the Indians want to know whether they can come up
and get the body."
He said, "Well, it has been customary in the past to let them come
out and get them. However, you will have to get some sort of a
permit from the county to transport the body between the counties."
He said, "However, before you make any arrangements to come up
here, let me call you back because I will have to check."
I said, "Fine. Call me back about 3 o'clock."
About 3 o'clock that afternoon he called me back and said it was all
right to have the council come lp there and get the body. I told
Jimmie Billy and some other Indians who were there, and they went


I -



out in the Everglades about 100 miles away and made arrangements
to go in and get the body.
About 11: 30 that night in my home I got a phone call from
Mr. Williams, and he said, "Mr. Marmon is here and he seems to
think that perhaps George Osceola ought to have a Christian burial."
I said, "Well, Mr. Williams, the Indians are supposed to meet me up
here in Dania tomorrow morning at 7 o'clock, and there is no way for
me to get in touch with them. They left over several hours ago, and
the only thing I can say is that we will just settle it up there when we
get there."
Dr. MILLER. Were not the sons asking for a Christain burial?
Were not the two sons Christians ?
Mr. SILVER. I will get to that in a minute. As much as I know of it.
The newspapers at that time were following it because they were
interested in Indian burials, and you will have to admit that the
people around here are interested in Seminoles, and it is a novel thing
when Indians conduct their own burials. And a camerman followed
us up there, went with us. He is a friend of mine. When we got up to
Dania, why, we found they were already in the process of burying
George Osceola.
Dr. MILLER. A Christian burial?
Mr. SILVER. That is right.
Dr. MILLER. At the request of the two sons ?
Mr. SILVER. I did not talk with the two sons that were there. Buf-
falo Tiger spoke to them.
Mr. Marmon and his wife seemed to be overly upset over the fact
we had come up there, as though they didn't know anything about it.
I didn't want to get involved in anything, so I told Buffalo Tiger to
go over and talk with the sons and let them decide what to do. There
was a little excitement there. Buffalo Tiger went over and spoke to
the two sons, and he came back and said that the two sons were very
much upset, but he said, "As far as the council is concerned, the body
is 8 days old and we are not going to handle it. Let them go ahead
and bury it."
So the Indians left and I walked over to watch the burial because,
as I say, I felt very strongly about George. And when we were leav-
ing, after we started to leave, I noticed the Deputy Sheriff drive up,
pull up with his car, walk into the burial past me, and didn't say a
word, and we left.
I noticed in the newspaper next day there was a lovely article is-
sued from Dania to the effect that this Deputy Sheriff had to be called
in because I was up there, and something to the effect that the Deputy
Sheriff made a statement, "If I catch their lawyer up here messing
with Yahoo's again, I will lock him up in the jail."
Dr. MILLER. Actually, if a father had three sons, and the father
died, the sons would decide how they wanted the father buried and
where he would be buried, would they not ?
Mr. TIGER. Not in this tribe.
Mr. SILVER. That is their law, and I don't intervene in their law.
As I say, I am only the attorney.
Dr. MILLER. Here are two Christian sons that wanted to bury their
father with a Christian funeral. Don't they recognize democratic
methods-that the two sons would have a right to claim the body?
Or does it belong to the council?



Mr. TIGER. It belongs to blood, and sons of blood goes on the
mother's side. So they didn't have a right to take them. But the
body was too old. I told Mr. Marmon thebody was too old and we
couldn't handle after 4 days.
Dr. MILLER. Where did you get authority to tell them?
Mr. TIGER. I have authority because he tell me.
Dr. MILLER. But actually, Mr. Silver, your being up there did create
a little commotion ?
Mr. SILVER. I wouldn't say my being there. I would say Mar-
Dr. MILLER. Your position as attorney here has constantly created
friction between the tribe here and the one up north. You recog-
nize that, don't you ?
Mr. SILVER. IS that your opinion or someone else's opinion?
Dr. MILLER. From what little I have heard and seen, I am pretty
well of that opinion; yes.
Mr. SILVER. I would say that there are a lot of people who are prob-
ably very upset with the fact that they are getting legal counsel, and
how upset they are I don't know. I know they probably, maybe, don't
sleep at night, maybe change their diets, and maybe some of them
want to quit their jobs. But I am still an attorney, and I still feel as
though I can give them legal advice as long as I don't break anybody's
laws in giving them legal advice. I don't feel I should be drawn into.
Dr. MILLER. Have you advised them to ignore the Indian Bureau
of the Department in what they are trying to promote ?
Mr. SILVER. Have I advised them to ignore the Indian Bureau? I
think they have been ignoring the Indian Bureau ever since I have
been working with them.
Dr. MILLER. Have you advised them to ?
Mr. SILVER. In what respect?
Dr. MILLER. The Indian Bureau has certain things they want to,
do to get these two tribes united so they can set up a division of their
lands and their assets.
Mr. SILVER. I have advised them to deal with the Executive Depart-
ment of the Government, and we have been corresponding with the
White House. We did not-I also advised them to continue as long
as possible to deal with the White House.
And I suppose you understand when I say this that a lot of my
testimony here is attorney-client relationship, but I am still testifying
to it to cooperate with you here. There are some things, perhaps,
I may feel I shouldn't testify to because it may be a breach of con-
fidence with them. But I have advised them to deal with the Execu-
tive Department because, in my opinion, the Legislative Department
does not have any jurisdiction over their council.
Dr. MILLER. You think we don't have any jurisdiction at all?
Mr. SILVER. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. Why do you form that opinion as a lawyer?
Mr. SILVER. Because they are still a sovereign nation.
Dr. MILLER. You think they are a sovereign nation. Have you:
made any statement about them taking it to the United Nations to get.
it settled?



Mr. SILVER. As I said, you are asking me-I will say this: In help-
ing them to get what they are rightfully entitled to as Indians, I will
leave no stone unturned.
Dr. MILLER. Have you given some expression to their going to the
United Nations to get help to settle their claims as a nation ?
Mr. SILVER. I have advised then that the United Nations is a forum
in which their rights might be heard.
Dr. MILLER. And have you advised them that they could have a
large strip of the lands in the southern part of Florida except 10 miles
along the coastline as part of their nation?
Mr. SILVER. I would like to clarify one thing about my advising
them. As far as the amount of land that they feel they are entitled
to, they have not told me.
Dr. MILLER. Have you advised them about how much land they
might have, except for a 10-mile strip along the coastline of Florida ?
Mr. SILVER. I have advised them, in my opinion, what they are
legally entitled to.
Dr. MILLER. What is that?
Mr. SILVER. That is practically all the whole State of Florida, with
the exception of the area around Jacksonville, St. Augustine, and a
land grant-
Dr. MILLER. Why do you exclude those?
Mr. SILVER. Pardon me?
Mr. HALEY. I am quite interested too.
Dr. MILLER. What did you advise them? That is what I want.
Mr. SILVER. I advised them that they owned or were legally entitled
to all the land in the State of Florida with the exception of the areas
around the Jacksonville River, St. Augustine, and the lands between
the St. Marks River and the Swanee River, I believe. There was an
original grant to Hanton Leslie & Co., a British trading house-
Dr. MILLER. So they wouldn't be entitled to that?
Mr. SILVER. They wouldn't be.
Dr. MILLER. Would that include Hialeah where this fellow lives!
Mr. SILVER. That would include Hialeah.
Dr. MILLER. You are quite sincere in the statement that you think
they are entitled to all that land ?
Mr. SILVER. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. Do you think the Chief Executive of the United States
feels they are entitled to that land, or the legislative body, or the In-
dian Claims Commission ?
Mr. SILVER. That is why I hope you are here today. I mean why I
hope you are here.
Dr. MILLER. When they get all of this, do you have an interest in it?
Mr. SILVER. Are you talking about something as a practical matter
or what I think they legally own ?
Dr. MILLER. I am not a lawyer; I am a physician. I am trying to
analyze your thinking on this. You, advised them they are entitled
to practically all of the State of Florida with the few exceptions you
have named. You are working practically for nothing here. When
they get the whole State of Florida with these few exceptions, what
does that make you ? Do you come in for a part of this? Is that where
you get your commission ?

NOW_ _



Mr. SILVER. I don't know what it makes me. If we got the whole
State of Florida, I suppose I would go down in Robert Ripley's
Dr. MILLER. Do you think anybody believes your thinking ?
Mr. SILVER. I think if any Government attorney does as much re-
search as I have and digs out the same information, he will believe it.
Frankly, I don't believe any of them have the same treaties I have
and the same information.
I would like to clarify a point. I don't think the council believes
for 1 minute they are going to get the whole State of Florida back.
Dr. MILLER. Don't you think that advocating that kind of a theory
has stirred up suspicion among the Indians, a whale of a lot of sus-
picion ? If I were an Indian and had my right sense-and I am sure
they have-I would be mighty suspicious if somebody came along and
told me I could have half of the State of Florida, with a few little ex-
ceptions. I don't understand that kind of thinking.
Mr. SILVER. I think the best test is in the eating of the pudding.
Apparently they still trust me, and they haven't fired me yet.
Dr. MILLER. You say you told them they were entitled to it, and
you say you don't believe they will get it, and they don't believe they
will get it.
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Dr. MILLER. What do you believe they will get ?
Mr. SILVER. If I had the powers to see into the Great Beyond, I
might know that answer.
Dr. MILLER. You must have been looking into a crystal ball some-
time or other to ask for that.
Mr. SILVER. I didn't say I was asking for that, did I?
Dr. MILLER. What are you asking for?
Mr. SILVER. We intend to discuss it with the executive department
of the Government.
Mr. MILLER. Mr. Eisenhower?
Mr. SILVER. We were discussing it with Commissioner Emmons,
who, we understood, was President Eisenhower's personal representa-
tive. At least that is what we were told by the White House and we
have no reason to disbelieve the White House.
Dr. MILLER. I admire these people for not wanting anything from
the Government. I really do. I think so many people start getting
something from the Government and then pretty soon get where they
think they owe it to them. But this puts a new slant on it when you
say you are asking for half the State of Florida.
Mr. SILVER. Congressman, I don't believe they are asking for any-
thing from the Government. As I said, and I thought I made it clear,
these people are legally entitled to this land.
Dr. MILLER. You think that ?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Dr. MILLER. That is your opinion.
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Dr. MILLER. Is that the opinion of any other lawyer you know ?
Mr. SILVER. That is the opinion of another lawyer I know, a very
able lawyer.
Dr. MILLER. I won't argue about it. I think that is all.
Mr. HALEY. Mr. Shuford, do you have any questions ?


Mr. SHUFORD. I have a few questions.
You say you have advised them they are legally entitled to the State
of Florida, with the exceptions that you have made ?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. And that has been your advice to the tribe
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. You have also advised them that they are not inter-
ested in the claim of the other members of the Seminole Tribe for the
$50 million?
Mr. SILVER. No, I have not advised them of that. Let me clarify
Mr. SHUFORD. You have represented them and followed their advice ?
Mr. SILVER. I work for the council. I do not tell the council what
to do; they tell me what to do, which is a very novel situation among
the Seminoles, because apparently most of the Seminoles north of here
are being told what to do. These people have told me to quash the
$50 million claim.
If I might add a little touch to the story, at one time I tried to
persuade them to let that claim go through, because I told them, in
my opinion, to try to get the land back was going to be tough, just
what we are encountering right now. They came up to my office in
a body one day and fired me, told me they wanted all their papers
back. When I asked them why, they said they felt I was working
for the Government to help them. Later I came back out here.
Mr. SHUFORD. What did they base that view on ?
Mr. SILVER. You will have to ask them that. They felt I was
pressing too hard to have them go through with the $50 million claim.
Mr. SHUFORD. They felt you were trying to get some of the $50
million and, therefore, you were not representing them properly?
Mr. SILVER. They felt I was trying to force them to take money
S from the Government, which according to what they told me was
against their religion.
Mr. SHUFORD. But you are advising them that they do have a claim
for the State of Florida?
Mr. SILVER. That is right.
Mr. SHUFORD. And they propose to make a claim against the Federal
Government for the State of Florida ?
Mr. SILVER. We don't propose to make, we have already made that
Mr. SHUFORD. You have already made that claim ?
Mr. SILVER. With the Executive Department.
Mr. SHUFORD. With the Executive Department ?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. Now the Executive Department. By that do you
mean the Chief Executive, the President ?
Mr. SILVER. The Chief Executive.
Mr. SHUFORD. You do not distinguish that ?
Mr. SILVER. I don't mean the Indian Bureau or any other Depart-
Mr. SHUFORD. That could be part of the Executive Department.
Mr. SILVER. It could be.
Mr. SHUFORD. You don't go through that?



Mr. SHUFORD. You say these Indians have no dealings at all with
the Indian Bureau, should not have any dealings with the Indian
Mr. SILVER. I don't know whether they have any personal dealings
with the Indian Bureau.
Mr. SHUFORD. As to their claim.
Mr. SILVER. You mean for their claim for lands ?
Mr. SILVER. We have not dealt with the Indian Bureau as such.
Mr. SHUFORD. Do you think they should go through the Indian
Bureau for that?
Mr. SHUFORD. Do you think they should be governed by the Con-
gress of the United States ?
Mr. SILVER. Do I think they should be ?
Mr. SILVER. I cannot voice an opinion on that because that is their
own decision to make.
Mr. SHUFORD. What is your view on it?
Mr. SILVER. I cannot make a personal view on it because I don't
want to do anything that will cause mistrust on their part.
Mr. SHUFORD. Do you think the Congress has any authority at all
in making the laws of the land ?
Mr. SILVER. Oh, sure. Of course I do. You mean the laws of
the United States of America ?
Mr. SHUFORD. The laws of the United States of America.
Mr. SILVER. Absolutely.
Mr. SHUFORD. Then do you also think that this tribe does not come
under the laws of the United States of America ?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. It is an entirely separate entity ?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. From the United States of America ?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. Would you feel that any treaty they made could only
be binding if the Federal Government or the legislative branch and
the Senate confirmed it ?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. That, would be necessary?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. So you do think, as far as the rest of the country, that
the Congress is responsible, but that they are not responsible for the
Seminole Tribe ?
Mr. SILVER. That is exactly correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. That is your theory in advising these people?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. Do you think that theory extends to all of the
Seminole Indians in Florida ?
Mr. SILVER. You mean as to whether they would accept that theory ?
Mr. SHUFORD. Are all of the Seminole Indians in the State of
Florida entitled to the same share in the State of Florida that you say
these Indians are?




Mr. SILVER. I think that that would be their decision. I don't know
what they want, these Indians on the reservations. I haven't had any
dealings with them.
Mr. SHUFORD. I am not talking about what they want. I am talking
about what you say. They are Seminoles and they are the same as the
others in the Dania Tribe and the other tribes at the lake?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. They are all the same people.
Mr. SILVER. With the exception that some may belong to a different
Mr. SHUFORD. Are they entitled to part of the State of Florida, too ?
Mr. SILVER. I would say that would be a matter of their choice.
Mr. SHUFORD. It is a legal question, is it not, whether they are
entitled to it or not ?
Mr. SILVER. I don't want to give a curbstone opinion.
Mr. SHUFORD. I have given lots of those. Sometimes they have
turned out all right and sometimes they did not. But if these people
are entitled legally to it, then the others are entitled to a share in it,.
are they not?
Mr. SILVER. I believe it would be a matter of their choice.
Mr. SHUFORDo. Legally it comes to a question of choice ?
Mr. SILVER. That is apparently the way Commissioner Emmons
feels too.
Mr. SHUFORD. I am not asking about Mr. Emmons. I just want to
know your legal thinking on that, as to the standing between the people
here and the others. They are all the same, are they not ?
Mr. SILVER. My legal opinion is that whatever this general council
decides would affect every Seminole in the State of Florida.
Mr. SHUFORD. And it would be binding on the others ?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. And if these Indians here said that they were entitled
to the State of Florida, with the exceptions you have noted, then it
would be binding on the other Indians in the State of Florida, the
Mr. SILVER. If this council wanted it that way. If this council
decided that it would be all right with them for this group on the
reservation to organize and form a separate entity, then they would
have the choice of making the decision that they wanted to with respect
to their own claims.
Mr. SHUFORD. Then this tribe here would have the responsibility of
distributing the land of the State of Florida to the people they decided
were entitled to it ?
Mr. SILVER. I don't know that they distribute land. As I under-
stand it, their law is they don't believe in individual ownership of
Mr. SHUFORD. They wouldn't have it individually, but they would
have rights to it. So they would distribute the rights, would they not ?
Mr. SHUFORD. Handle the rights ?
Mr. SILVER. It is my understanding they believe in community prop-
erty, that everybody would share in it equally, and no one man would
claim any particular section of land. I may be wrong.
Is that correct ?


Mr. TIGER. That is right.
Mr. SHUFORD. Then the other Indians would have just as much right
in these lands as these Indians ?
Mr. SILVER. Right.
Mr. SHUFORD. You spoke a minute ago about some other lawyer
having the same views about this that you have. Who is he ?
Mr. SILVER. Mr. Leo Alpert.
Mr. SHUFORD. IS he associated with you?
Mr. SILVER. That is right; he is associated with me.
Mr. SHUFORD. As a partner or just as an associate ?
Mr. SILVER. Just associated with me. I asked him questions from
time to, time until, finally, I guess he found himself in deeper than he
wanted to be.
Mr. SHUFORD. How long have you known him ?
Mr. SILVER. About 5 years.
Mr. SHUFORD. Five years?
Mr. SILVER. Yes.
Mr. SHUFORD. Are you originally from Florida ?
Mr. SILVER. Originally I am from Massachusetts. Springfield,
Mr. SHUFORD. Where is Mr. Alpert from ?
Mr. SILVER. I believe Baltimore, Md.
Mr. SHUFORD. How long has he been in Florida ?
Mr. SILVER. I believe he has been in Florida approximately 15 years.
Mr. SHUFORD. And he is a member of the Florida bar ?
Mr. SILVER. I have been here about 18 years.
Mr. SHUFORD. You have been here about 18 years ?
Mr. SILVER. Yes.
Mr. SHTUFORD. And you got your law license in Massachusetts ?
Mr. SILVER. NO, in Florida.
Mr. SHUFORD. The University of Florida ?
Mr. SILVER. The University of Florida.
Mr. SHUFORD. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. HALEY. Dr. Miller, do you have any further questions ?
Dr. MILLER. I have one. I notice in the hearings last year in Wash-
ington Betty Mae Jumper, secretary of Seminole Tribal Committees,
placed in the record a statement as to what they wanted-education,
improvement of lands, improved health conditions, roads, homes for
Indians, flood control and water conservation, and a few things like
that. The American Indian Council had a lot of complaints because
they were not getting enough. That would not apply, then, to your
group down here. They do not want all of those things ?
Mr. SILVER. Would you go through that list again ?
Dr. MILLER. Lack of education. They want more education. They
want improvement of the lands and pastures. They want more and
better health conditions. They want more and better roads. They
want homes for Indians, good homes, electric lights and toilets and
baths. They want flood control.
Mr. TIGER. If Indians want to make better homes, they can do it for
themselves. They don't have to ask.
Dr. MILLER. I see. Then the American Indian Affairs, who seem
to represent you-
Mr. TIGER. Who?



ht Dr. MILLER. American Indian Affairs, Inc., New York City, N. Y.
Mr. SILVER. They don't represent them.
Dr. MILLER. They put a statement in here saying we were not doing
r enough for you folks. You would not agree with the American Indian
Mr. TIGER. No.
Mr. SHUFORD. I have one other question. Then, Mr. Silver, I
believe under your theory and the advice you have given these Indians
here whom you represent, that this group of Indians speaks for all of
the Seminole Indians of Florida, that they are the ones that speak
n with authority ?
eMr. SILVER. Legally, yes. As a matter of fact, no.
Mr. SHUFORD. But legally
Mr. SILVER. Legally, yes.
Mr. SHUFORD. Legally this group of Indians here speak for all of
the Indians of Florida ?
Mr. SILVER. That is correct.
Mr. SHUFORD. And that is the advice you have given them ?
Mr. SILVER. No, I haven't given them that advice.
Mr. SHUFORD. You haven't given that advice?
Mr. SILVER. NO, sir.
Mr. SHUFORD. But that is your belief?
Mr. SILVER. You just asked me my personal opinion.
Mr. SILVER. That is my belief. Their opinion is that they don't
speak for the Indians on the reservation. That is what they have
told me. My personal opinion is that legally they do.
Mr. SHUFORD. Then they think they should speak for them, don't
You don't profess to speak for the Indians on the reservation, do
Mr. TIGER. No, unless they want us to.
Mr. SHUFORD. In other words, you don't think you have the author-
ity to speak for them ?
Mr. TIGER. That is right.
Mr. SHUFORD. That is the point.
Mr. SILVER. That is right.
Mr. TIGER. I remember we went on the reservation three different
times trying to get together so we could all stick together, and trying
to get things set up for them and set up for us, and I remember one
day we walked in Mr. Marmon's office in Dania-he remember we
did-and asked him if we could set up some way they can have their
way and we can have our way. We should all meet, but we shouldn't
have to ask you. When you wanted something we are not going to try
to stop you and you shouldn't try to stop us on this side. But we
must talk together and we must get together and talk this thing and
see what we really want. He remember, do you ?
Mr. MARMON. Sure.
Mr. TIGER. We never get together. They don't want us up there,
so we came back.
Mr. SHUFORD. You don't think you are entitled to speak for them
Mr. TIGER. No.

__ _ _



Mr. SILVER. Congressman, I have had several Indians from the
reservation come to my office from time to time. Henry Cypress-I
don't know whether he spoke up there or not-a Baptist missionary
came to my office one day and told me that he wanted to talk to me;
he had heard of the work I was doing and he wanted to tell me he
agreed with what the council was doing in getting their land back,
in wanting their land, and that he would like to come out to the
council meetings. But they wouldn't let him come because I guess
you are aware of the religious problem involved here. There is a
religious difference. That is why I am surprised I have heard various
statements coming from him. I am surprised to hear him.
I would like to read an answer filed by the United States Govern-
ment attorneys in this $50 million claim up there.
Dr. MILLER. I think we have that.
Mr. HALEY. We have that as a matter of record.
Mr. SILVER. You have their answer?
Mr. HALEY. We have that.
Mr. SILVER. I would like to clarify one more point.
My testimony, or the way the questions were phrased, might seem
to indicate that I have given these Indians the idea that they own
the land, where they maintained, have had the idea before. In
discussion with them-I don't think they will object to my saying
this-in showing them some information I had gathered about the
last treaty that was made.
Mr. SHUFORD. What treaty was that?
Mr. SILVER. The General Macomb Treaty. There are somelegal
refinements there.
Mr. SHUFORD. I asked to clarify the record.
Mr. SILVER. Dated 1839. They are very much aware of that
treaty, although they didn't have a name for it, didn't have the
Macomb name. However, the boundary line, they say, was established
at that meeting and was not down through Lake Okeechobee through
the center of the State, but across Lake Okeechobee. I could probably
show you on the map. There is a natural canal and a river that the
boundary went through. This is the way they explained it to me-
the land that was agreed upon between the United States and the
Seminole Nation.
Mr. SIIUFORD. YOU say they explained to you. Who explained to
Mr. SILVER. The council through Buffalo Tiger. Is that correct ?
Mr. TIGER. Yes.
Mr. SILVER. They claimed the boundary established between the
Seminole Nation and the United States Army went along through
this river [indicating], through the center of the lake, and up through
here, and they were to have everything south.
Mr. HALEY. For the record, the river is-
Mr. SILVER. The Caloosahatchee.
Mr. HALEY. In other words, beginning at Fort Myers on the west,
and roughly it would be Jensen Beach on the east coast ?
Mr. SILVER. Stewart.
Mr. HALEY. Stewart on the east coast of Florida ?
Mr. SILVER. Yes. I think they call it St. Lucie Canal.
Mr. HALEY. Does that complete your statement ?
Mr. SILVER. Yes, sir.

YE~--~----------------~- '"'

-J Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much.
Who is the next witness ?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Harvey.
Mr. HALEY. Mrs. Harvey, identify yourself for the record.

s Mrs. HARVEY. My name is Mrs. Aaron Harvey, of 1801 81st Avenue,
I was at the meeting yesterday and I heard the conversation and
took notes of that.
Our organization works very closely with the Seminole Council and
the Seminole people. We feel a great friendship toward them, and
I am sure that they feel the same toward us. They attend our meetings
at the United Seminole Association meetings in Miami. Mr. Tiger
acts as their interpreter.
After hearing some of the vicious remarks that went into these
congressional records yesterday, I want to go on record also from
Sour organization as saying that they were absolutely untrue, the
Attack upon Mr. Silver. I know him to be a man of integrity. He
has a great feeling of humility, and he is giving all of his help free
and his advice free to help the Seminole Indians, which I think he
is to be commended very greatly and very highly for. I think very
highly of his ability and of his knowledge as an attorney. I feel like
he knows whereof he speaks.
It was with great sorrow that I had to sit yesterday and listen to
the attacks upon his reputation from men who were speaking not of
knowledge of knowing him, or knowing of what he was actually doing
for these Indians, but were only speaking from what they had heard.
That, gentlemen, is what I would like to go into this congressional
record-that they were speaking from what they heard and not from
what they actually know.
Mr. HALEY. Dr. Miller.
Dr. MILLER. How old is the United Seminole Association ?
Mrs. HARVEY. About 2 years old.
Dr. MILLER. How many members do you have ?
Mrs. HARVEY. I think it is around 50 or 55.
Dr. MILLER. Do you have dues ?
Mrs. HARVEY. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. How do you get your membership ?
Mrs. HARVEY. We invite anyone, whether they are men or women,
from organizations who have delegates on their civic affairs com-
Dr. MILLER. Have you any association with the American Indian
Institute ?
Mrs. HARVEY. No.
Dr. MILLER. None at all?
Mrs. HARVEY. None whatever.
Dr. MILLER. You heard Mr. Silver's statement about claiming most
of Florida for the Seminole Indians. Does your group believe that
Mrs. HARVEY. Mr. Congressman, I am not an attorney.
Dr. MILLER. I said, have you discussed it in your group?


Mrs. HARVEY. We have heard it discussed in our group. We have
heard speakers before our group. Mr. Silver has spoken before our
group. And we have seen a great many of these documents. From
the documents I have seen I would say they were entitled to certain
lands here in Florida. I don't think they cah expect all of the lands,
but I do think they do want and expect these certain lands to call their
own. They are pushed off of land very quickly.
Dr. MILLER. They have about 200 acres apiece now on the reser-
vations, given to them under the Seminole group. I will get the correct
figure. I do not know if I remember the total figure.
For the 823 Seminole Indians, the total land area is 184,862.6 acres
in the State of Florida. That is something over 200 acres apiece.
About how much do you think they ought to have more than that-
all of Florida or just part of it?
Mrs. HARVEY. I might ask, is this 200 acres divided up equally
among the tribes?
Dr. MILLER. It is in the reservations: Brighton, 36,924; Big Cypress,
147,463; Dania, 475, or a total of 184,862 acres within the State ol
Florida for 823 Seminoles, approximately.
Mrs. HARVEY. I believe this group here that we are before here,
sitting with today, it is within my knowledge they have no reservation
that they call their own at this particular place where we are at now.
Am I correct or incorrect ?
Mr. SILVER. Correct.
Mrs. HARVEY. And there people are being pushed back farther and
farther off different lands until they have very little to live and fish
and hunt upon.
The oil wells are coming within the boundaries of this part, the
territory here. It was discussed in our organization one night that-
and we also brought it up when we saw Mr. Emmons-that we won-
dered if the Government would not permit these Indians to have
access to this State Park in the State of Florida, that they might
live within its boundary lines and hunt and fish within the boundary
lines of our State Park. I am sure that they would take care of I
,and look after it, and I believe that they should have that access to
our State Park here in Florida.
Mr. HALEY. Are you through?
Mrs. HARVEY. As I understand it, they are only interested in land
and not in any money. It is the land that they want.
Mr. SHUFORD. I have a couple of questions here.
Mr. HALEY. Congressman Shuford.
Mr. SHUFORD. Your organization, does it have a charter?
Mrs. HARVEY. Yes.
Mr. SHUFORD. Is it incorporated?
Mrs. HARVEY. Yes.
Mr. SHUFORD. It has bylaws?
Mrs. HARVEY. Yes.
Mr. SHUFORD. What is the purpose of your organization according
to your bylaws?
Mrs. HARVEY. I think our president is sitting right here and she can
very well quote them probably from memory much better than I can.
Mr. TAYLOR. She will be appearing later.
Mr. SHUFORD. IS it the purpose of your organization to represent
all of the Seminoles or simply the group here ?


Mrs. HARVEY. We have been working with this group and very
closely, but as far as my personal opinion, I would very much like to
see all of the groups get along and be very friendly. I hate to see
animosity and unfriendly attitudes amongst any nations.
Mr: SHUFORD. But your organization primarily is in the interest
of this particular group here ?
Mrs. HARVEY. Yes, it is. But, as I said, we do nothing to cause any
friction amongst any of them at all. I mean, we have no authority to
act for them. We only aid wherever we can.
Mr. SHUFORD. Do you have a list of members? Does your secre-
tary keep a list of your members and you keep regular minutes and
Mrs. HARVEY. Yes.
Mr. SHUFORD. Are those public?
Mrs. HARVEY. Our meetings are all public.
Mr. SHUFORD. Your meetings are public and your bylaws would
be public ?
Mrs. HARVEY. Yes.
Mr. SHUFORD. You would have no objection for the committee to
have a copy of the charter and the bylaws ?
Mrs. HARVEY. We would be very happy to send them to you.
Mr. SHUFORD. And a record of the minutes of your meetings.
Would you have any objection?
Mrs. HARVEY. No.
Mr. SHUFORD. Then, if the committee should ask you for them,
you would be happy to furnish them with them?
Mrs. HARVEY. As far as I am concerned, but our president is our
official representative.
Mr. SHUFORD. Yes, I understand. Do you hold any office in the
Mrs. HARVEY. Publicity director.
Mr. SHUFORD. I see. Thank you.
Dr. MILLER. I have one more question. What do you do to help
these Indians that do not want any help ? They tell me they do not
want any help. What are you messing in their affairs for, if I may
use that word?
Mrs. HARVEY. I don't think we are messing in their affairs.
Dr. MILLER. They don't want any help, they tell us.
Mrs. HARVEY. We all have very friendly relations, with which we
are very honored.
Dr. MILLER. What do you do to help them? What is your pro-
gram, if they don't want any help ?
Mrs. HARVEY. If they get into trouble, I am sure we would be the
first to their aid outside of Mr. Silver. You can bet on that.
Dr. MrLLER. You haven't been doing anything they don't want?
Mrs. HARVEY. No.
Dr. MILLER. They don't want anything, so you just sort of sit by
as a watchdog and see that nobody does anything for them because
they don't want any help.
Mrs. HARVEY. I wouldn't put it that way. Those are your words
and you have to eat them. I am not going to say it.
Dr. MILLER. They say they don't want any help. Why should you
be trying to help them when they don't want any help ?
Mrs. HARVEY. They don't tell us that.


Dr. MILLER. What have you done for them?
Mrs. HARVEY. We are aiding in trying to get the land rightfully
Dr. MILLER. Part of Florida, or all of Florida ?
Mrs. HARVEY. Whatever they want. Whatever we can do, we are
very happy to do it.
Mr. HALEY. Any further questions ?
If not, thank you very much.
Who is the next witness?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Frank Stranahan.
Mr. HALEY. State your name.

Mrs. STRANAHAN. Mrs. Frank Stranahan.
Mr. HALEY. Where do you live ?
Mrs. STRANAHAN. Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Mr. HALEY. I believe you are the legislative chairman of the-
Mrs. STRANAHAN. Friends of the Seminoles.
Mr. HALEY. I see. You may proceed.
Mrs. STRANAHAN. Besides that, I have been a neighbor and friend
with the Seminoles for 55 years. I expect my statement is going to be
in contrast to that which has been made, because I started working
with these Indians when I was a very young girl, so to speak. I felt
my duty, inasmuch as I knew them and had practically been raised up
with them, was to make them understand that the Government was
a friend to everybody, that they should have an education, the same
as I have had, and they should be at liberty to choose a Christian way
of life if they wished.
It was very easy to work with children, because that is the way we
started, just the young people coming around to my house and making
friends with me. We have always, as I say, been friends because I
am a native of the State of Florida and really knew them.
We felt that the young people should know and have the same oppor-
tunities that we had. I still feel that the Seminoles should have
access to all the improvements that we have that they can use to make
life easier and more pleasant for them.
We started in encouraging the young people to be interested in pic-
tures, and they always liked highly colored pictures and that kind of
thing. Indians are very artistic, as everyone knows. So it was very
easy to get them to become interested and to understand that the word-
ing underneath these pictures would tell them what this was. So
that's the way we started out in the line of education.
I felt that they should know that my Government was their friend,
and so I would tell them that whenever they would talk about the past,
that I didn't know anything about the past, only what I read. I never
had anything to do with it. They didn't have anything to do with it.
And so the thing that mattered most was what we did from here on.
When they wanted to go to school, finally we persuaded 2 or 3 to
go first, and later they didn't like to go so far as North Carolina.
Some of them. I told them, "Well, the only thing to do is just to
decide what you want, and let us know, and we will do just everything"
that was necessary to arrange for them to go to school at home, just



like any other child. "Only you decide what you want and come and
tell us."
I -have been very, very careful never to force my ideas. When they
would come time after time about certain things, I would say, "You
tell us what you want. You decide what you want, and then we will
see that that comes to pass."
Finally, when Fort Lauderdale began to settle up very fast, Mr.
Spencer, agent at that time, had word from Washington to get the
Indians out of Fort Lauderdale onto their own land on the reservation.
He wrote me to do what I could to get them on the reservation.
Mr. SHUFORD. That was the Dania Reservation?
Mrs. STRANAIIAN. That is the Dania Reservation. That was the
nearest any Indians was living then to any reservation.
I went out there one morning early, after everybody said it couldn't
be done. But anyway, I felt it was my duty to try, and there was quite
a big group of them in conference. We had also written them at the
same time. I told them that that was their land, their home, it was
set aside for them. Nobody else could get it, nobody else could have
it. And the Government told them, if they would go on that land and
make camp, they would never have to move again, and all the other
Indians that wanted to, all the Indians, all Seminoles, not one but all.
I went and sat in my car after talking with them for a while, about
half an hour. I said, "You talk it over. You decide what you want
to do. If you want to go, all right, I will take you."
After about a half an hour, one of the old ladies, old Annie Jumper
and her brother, Willie Jumper, Jack Cuff, and Cohontas Cuff, came
out behind, and that made just a load for my car. I had prepared,
because I felt, as I feel now, that whenever they made a decision we
had to move and seal the deal or that would seal it. So I had grub
hoes and axes and hatchets and things in the car, and I drove. I didn't
speak a word when they come up to the car, just opened the door, for
fear they might change their minds; closed the door and drove just
as fast as I could drive to the reservation.
It was a beautiful morning in June. When we got out I said,
"Annie, isn't this beautiful? Isn't this the most beautiful land you
have ever seen? The trees all virgin timber. They have never been
cut." The mockingbirds were singing in the trees, and they all
seemed quite happy. I opened the door and said, "Willie, this is
the biggest patch of palmettos anywhere around. You and Mack go
to work here now." I said, "This is going to be your home," and I
said, "Maybe by and by you have a store here and you sell gasoline,
candy, ice cream, everything to the people that go by, to the children,"
and threw out the axes, and I walked off down to look around. And I
walked off by myself. And it was beautiful, and the girl went with
her. She walked around, overlooked it all, and turned back to the
car, and I went back too. Then I said, "Isn't it beautiful? This is
the most beautiful place I know."
And she was happy too. Up to that time she had not said a word.
She smiled and I said, "Do you want to go back home ?"
I said, "All right, we will go back." I said, "Willie, you and Jack
stay here and work until 5 o'clock, and I will come back and get



We went home. At 5 o'clock I went back and picked them up. I
said, "You get 2 or 3 more to come out with you tomorrow morn-
ing and I will meet you and bring you up from the reservation."
Mr. SHUFORD. How long did it take them to move ?
Mrs. STRANAHIAN. On Friday. I brought them back and forth until
Mr. SHUFORD. They finally moved about Friday ?
Mrs. STRANAHAN. Yes. I told Mr. Spencer they were coming on.
Mr. SHUFORD. The chickees took time?
Mrs. STRANAHAN. He took a builder over there and they went to
work to build the buildings there now, and it took about a week of
their going back and forth.
Mr. SHUFORD. And they have been living there since that time?
Mrs. STRANAHAN. They have been living there since that.
Then the other Indians-that is another thing I said: 'This land
belongs to all the Indians, and all of it." You won't hear one of them
say yet, just Buffalo said here now, he said what belongs to all of
them and that they don't one have any jurisdiction over the other.
That is they don't want to dictate.
Mr. SH-UFORD. Mrs. Strnii hallii, when did you first hear of the claim
of the Indians to most of the State of Florida ?
Mrs. STRANAHAN. The first time that I really heard that was here
about, maybe, a month ago, when I saw in the paper that Mr. Silver
had been up to Tallahassee to see the Governor, and that they were
making claim to, I think the paper said, the whole State of Florida.
Dr. MILLER. You don't believe that ?
Mrs. STRANAHAN. I don't believe that. I never did tell them that.
I told them Florida was exactly like it was when I was a child here
when I romped and roamed all over Florida when I was a little girl,
just like these boys and girls are. And everything I could survey was
mine as far as I could see. But now it is all different. All I own is
what I have got, what I live on. It is all different.
Mr. SHUFORD. The first knowledge you had of that claim for the
land was just within the last 30 days ?
Mrs. STRANAHAN. Yes, since I saw it in the paper.
Mr. SHUFORD (presiding). Are there any questions?
Dr. MILLER. She made a very nice statement. You keep on encour-
aging the Indians.
Mrs. STRANAHAN. Thank you. I do feel, if there is any way-I am
like the Indians, I don't know who owns this land out here. But I do
think if the Government can in any way secure this land for a period of
years in the park, I think they should be allowed to stay in the park,
and every other park in the United States I know of, the Indians are
allowed to stay, but the white has to move out. I think they should
have that.
I tried for years, Mrs. Marmon and I both tried, to secure some of
these lands that these Indians have their homes on now from personal
private parties, but it is quite a task, as you know. But I do believe
that something should be done that the older ones could live on here.
I don't think we should hurt the older ones by trying to press a lot of
new things upon them. But the younger Indians are going to want to
use the white man's roads, the white man's cars, the white man's food,
the white man's bread and butter, and everything he has, and go to
their entertainments, too. So I am sure they should be allowed that.


Mr. SHUFORD. Thank you very much.
Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. F. D. Sheldon.
Mr. SHUFORD. Will you state your name and residence so we will
have it in the record, please?

Mrs. SHELDON. I am Mrs. Frances D. Sheldon. I live in Fort
Lauderdale, Fla., 801 North Rio Vista Boulevard. I am State chair-
man for Indian welfare with the Florida Federation of Women's
Clubs. I will read you my report.
Two elected representatives of the Seminole entities from reservations at
Brighton, Big Cypress, and Dania, met at the Dania Reservation March 19, 1955.
They represent the majority of approximately 1,000 Seminoles of Florida.
With recognition of majority rule, they request allocation of funds, per capital,
according to reservation divisions, of the funds held in trust by the United
States Government for the express use:
First, to provide welfare emergency funds for medical supplies and burial
Second, for a $1,000 housing loan fund for employed heads of families.
Third, to build a community house with hot showers and commodes.
Fourth, to provide a teacher of handicraft for the many unemployed adults.
The Federation of Women's Clubs supports the Seminoles in their request that
no change be made in the Superintendent of the Government Agency until this
program is in operation, pending the termination of Federal services to the
Florida Seminoles.
Mr. SHUFORD. Are there any questions ?
Dr. MILLER. It is a very good statement. Thank you very much.
Mr. SHUFORD. Thank you very much.
Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. J. R. Baumgartner.


Mr. BAUMGARTNER. I am J. R. Baumgartner, North Miami, Fla.
Most of the things I had in mind today have been gone over, so I
won't take much time. But there is one thing that has been brought
out today that I want to repeat.
The Indians say they don't want any help, but they do; and they
have accepted considerable help at various times. It seems they are
confused in what they do want.
Mr. SIIUFORD. By the Indians, you mean this group?
Mr. BAUMGARTNER. There are those in this group that have accept-
ed medication and hospitalization, old-age pensions, and during the
depression aid in the form of groceries. I just wanted to bring that
out. There seems to be a little bit of conflict there as to what the
wants were.
Mr. SHUFORD. Any questions?
Mr. SHUFORD. Thank you very much.
Call the next witness.



Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. McLinden.
Mr. SHUFORD. State your name and proceed.

Mrs. MCLINDEN. My name is Regina L. McLinden, and I reside at
212 Northeast 17th Street, Miami. I am president of the United
Seminole Affairs Association, comprised of 55 local women who are
interested in the affairs of the Seminole Indians who are right in our
Mr. SHUFORD. On the Trail?
Mrs. McLINDEN. Yes. The reason why I say right in our area, we
all have so much to do in club work, organizational work, personal
home work, and in business, that we have been very much concerned
about our own neighbors. I have discussed assisting them for the
past 5, 6, 7 years. I have been interested in them myself for 10 years.
But it just seems that whenever we pick up a newspaper that we are
helping France and England and all other countries, and here we have
a group that we have done nothing for. I seem to find that a great
many of the women of other organizations thought the way I did-
that we should form some organization.
Then we were chartered, as I told you boys yesterday in Clewistonr
at the hearing there. We were chartered in 1954, but we have been
working diligently toward some program.
I heard you request from Mrs. Harvey, our publicity chairman,
what we do for them.
First of all, there is not much that we actually can do for the In-
dians at this time other than to boost their morale and see that they
are not pushed around. And when I say "pushed around," I mean,
in that particular instance, we have heard-and this is only hearsay,.
and I don't think much of the hearing that the average person gets
may be true, and therefore I say unless one can prove really by evi-
dence that is actually so, you have to discount it.
I have had as many as five calls when that first little pumping out-
fit went up, and the amount of dynamiting and the noise that existed.
We came out, a body of women-Mrs. Harvey was with us and some
of the other ladies here were with us-and we heard the bombing, the
dynamiting, and it annoyed the council and the people here because
it would scare away their little means of support. When I say "sup-
port," their support at the time was their meal ticket, as they claim,
the fish and such, and they were getting little activity from fishing
because of the noise.
Now in attempting to boost their morale and stating that they had
been pushed around, there was a game warden who did come around
and say they could not hunt, that they would have to seek other quar-
ters, which was very alarming to so many of the women. That too
was a matter of importance.
When the organization was formed, it was really chartered and
we got going; we were given the privilege of meeting in a central
place; and we have been very fortunate in pulling in-by that I mean
inviting in-organizations. We do have a very fine group, and we
usually meet in the chamber of commerce directors' room in downtown


* Miami, which is central. Each and every month, as we meet, we do
get new members who are definitely interested. There is no monetary
end of it, nobody looking for a dollar. Nobody is looking for pub-
licity. But we are trying, through the good graces of our Congress-
men, our own men that we put into office, to have them look into this
affair. That is one of our big main issues.
For instance, Dante Fascell, a new Congressman whom you men
have evidently met and heard of, I spoke to him. I have known him
many years, since a little boy. I said, "What are you going to do
for our Indians?"
He said, "You girls get together and let us hear from you. I know
Emmons is going to be down shortly. Let us hear from you."
And other Congressmen who are very much interested. There is
nothing we can do until we show our own governmental heads what
they want.
I know, and I told them repeatedly. I told you at your meeting
last night that our Government don't want to hurt these people.
These Seminoles have very little confidence in the white people. We
want them to feel at liberty to talk to them, bring their problems to
them, and their problems are the same-they want a place to live,
they want their ground.
They claim they don't want anything, but I say another thing.
They will want something. I don't care how much land you give
them, they will want something for a start. And I think if you boys
are going to go back to Washington and go over all of this testimony
and are going to use your very good judgment, you are going to say,
"Yes, we are going to put you in business." You may give one a
tractor, you may give one some cows, you may be able to see someone
else gets a sewing machine, and maybe the women will be able to assist
their husbands.
They made uniforms for all of your officers, and they sat at the little
hand machines printing out on that little machine stitch by stitch
for a measly $11 a uniform, where it should bring maybe 3 times 11.
But that is their way of life.
I think if these people can get recognized through these people-
and I know you will do your best. I am very, very confident. I can
read human nature. I don't say I know personalities better than you
do, but I can see from every one of your faces a kindly attitude toward
them. You want to help them in their plight, and I know you will.
All they want is to be left alone like Greta Garbo. "Let me alone."
If you leave them alone, they are going to work out their problems.
Give them a little land. They don't want a barrel of it. Figure
out some manner, shape, or form, and also don't forget, they may
say they don't want to but, they have got to have some substantial
amount set aside. That is our opinion, the women's opinion, not
theirs, in order to start business. You can give me a little store, but if
I haven't got merchandise I can't sell it. It is going to take time.
You have to give one some cows, and maybe a tractor, and maybe a ma-
chine. You have got to have a budget set up for them because, in
some manner, shape, or form, when the time comes and they are ready
to go to work and are in business, they will be no problem because they
are such a law-abiding group. Everyone minds his own business.
They are nice.


I also think, according to the little group that met last night-we
had a house full last night-while the children, they say they have a
different opinion, I think their children in due time, and I hope not
far off, because these children are growing.in leaps and bounds, let
them have some form of education on their own grounds. They
don't want them to go away from home.
I feel as though my children should go to college in order to learn
the way of life on the outside. They feel different. They want
their children home. They want them on their own grounds.
Again back to finances. The Government should provide some
means, but they should stay on their own grounds, have their own
school systems set here, and I think we certainly will have a happy
ending when the story is done with.
Mr. SHITFORD. Dr. Miller, do you have any questions ?
Dr. MILLER. There are between eight and nine hundred Seminoles.
They now have 184,862 acres of land, which is something over 200
acres apiece. Do you think that would be enough land ?
Mrs. McLINDEN. You have 600 here. My approximate thought.
I base my figures on that right now-I say there is about 85 here.
Dr. MILLER. I asked you a question. There are about 900 Seminoles
who now have 184,862 acres of land. That is more than 200 acres
Mrs. McLINDEN. It this theoretically speaking?
Dr. MILLER. That is land they now have.
Mrs. McLINDEN. Have they got a deed to it ?
Dr. MILLER. Yes, the Brighton Reservation, and Dania and Big
Mrs. McLINDEN. Who holds the deed ?
Dr. MILLER. The Government hold them for the Indians.
Mrs. McLINDEN. How do they know it is theirs ?
Dr. MILLER. It has been theirs.
Mrs. McLINDEN. They don't know it.
Dr. MILLER. You should be telling them then.
Mrs. MCLINDEN. I think you too should advise them.
Dr. MILLER. Nearly 5,000 head of cattle.
Mrs. McLINDEN. Down here ?
Dr. MILLER. On the three reservations.
Mrs. McLINDEN. Here is one reservation. Let's talk now of the
Forty-Mile Bend Reservation. How many cattle?
Dr. MILLER. I wouldn't know down here.
Mrs. McLINDEN. I bet they don't know.
Dr. MILLER. Of the total 501 Seminoles over 18 years of age, 376
are salaried; 226 work off the reservation and 150 work on the reserva-
tion. Is that bad, or do you think that is all right?
Mrs. McLINDEN. You are giving me the picture from up above.
I would say that down here I doubt if you got 50 people making a
weekly salary right here.
Mr. MILLER. I am talking about all the reservations. You see they
are all Seminoles with me.
Mrs. McLINDEN. Well, you see, I had relations of my own making
big, big money, and I am making no money. So I don't believe you
could bring me in the category and say she is making a good living
because the rest of them are. If these people were given a proportion
and given a deed-


Dr. MILLER. They don't want anything, they tell us.
Mrs. McLINDEN. They want land.
Dr. MILLER. They don't want anything.
Mrs. McLINDEN. You are talking about the overall picture.
Dr. MILLER. They testified today they don't want anything from
the Government.
Mrs. McLINDEN. If you give them equal rights.
Dr. MILLER. What rights don't they have ?
Mrs. MCLINDEN. Just a minute. If you take 200 acres apiece and
you have got 600 people, you have got 12,000 acres which should be
deeded to the council and worked along according to the lines of the
Miccosuki Nation. If it is done that way, I am sure the story will be
a happy one when it is over.
Dr. MILLER. This land is all held in trust for the Seminoles.
s. McLIDE. DEN. What is the use of your holding money in trust
for me if I can't use it ?
Dr. MILLER. They can use it.
Mrs. McLINDEN. They have got a pump over here [indicating], got
two more over there, and one around there, which is theirs and-
Dr. MILLER. Is their land set aside for them ? I think not.
Mrs. McLINDEN. No, but how do they know which is theirs ?
Dr. MILLER. I don't think they would have any trouble finding out
if educated people like you would tell them.
Mrs. MCLINDEN. I can't tell them, I haven't been advised. Mrs.
Emmons is doing the best they can, to the best of my knowledge, to
tell us just what they will have or when they will have it. I think
that would be a very good suggestion, and I think you should check
into it if you boys can't give us the information. It goes-
Dr. MILLER. A lady testified a few minutes before you that she took
some Indians out to the Dania Reservation where they have now built
their homes.
Mrs. McLINDEN. That is Dania. I am talking about the Seminole
Miccosuke Tribe. If I can find out through metes and bounds through
the governmental bodies in Washington which belongs to these people,
I will be glad to help work it out.
Mrs. MCLINDEN. Can you tell me which Department can tell where
the land is?
Mr. LEE. We can give her a complete description of all the Semi-
noles' land held by the United States.
Mrs. McLINDEN. *What specific area these people live in?
Mr. LEE. No.
Mrs. McLINDEN. They are going up to the northern part of Florida
to live when they want to live down here where their fathers and
forefathers died. They want to stay here. This is home, their native
land. If you can designate, it can only be done in metes and bounds
because it is not-
Dr. MILLER. May I ask, Mr. Lee, where this is up in northern
Mr. LEE. The three reservations' land belongs to all the Seminoles-
the Dania, Brighton, and Big Cypress. Also the State of Florida
has set aside a reservation of 104,000 acres.
Those are the areas ybu gentlemen visited yesterday. This area
| here is not held in trust by the United States for the Indians.
Mrs. MCLINDEN. That is what they want.



Mr. LEE. The land around this area does not belong to the Indians.
The specific camp is located on the Everglades National Park land,
but it belongs to the Federal Government, not to the Indians. The
land across the canal down through there does not belong to the
Mrs. McLINDEN. Then they really are trespassing right this min-
Mr. SHUFORD. Over across the canal belongs to the Government?
Mr. LEE. I am not sure, Congressman. I think a good share across
the canal is privately owned. As I recall, a lot of that is privately
Dr. MILLER. How long have these reservations been set aside for the
Indians, do you know ?
Mr. LEE. Varying dates. I believe Dania is about 1911, if I recall.
They were set aside at different times.
Mr. SHUFORD. About 20 or 30 years they have been set aside.
Mr. LEE. That is correct. As I recall, several different dates for the
tracts of land.
Dr. MILLER. But they do have some lands besides. The State of
Florida has given them 104,000 acres?
Mr. LEE. That is correct.
Mrs. McLINDEN. But these Seminole Miccosuki tribe don't belong
here. This is not their area. But you will admit that they could get
some other lands wherever you designate they are entitled to. Is that
the point ?
Mr. LEE. I don't know what they can get and I don't think that we
can. What you are doing is telling these gentlemen or the Indians
are telling these gentlemen what they want. Then it remains to be
seen whether the Congress can grant the funds or the authority to
acquire those lands.
Mrs. MOLINDEN. I can't see for the life of me, right this second,
if you got all this acreage around, why something hasn't been done
to satisfy them and to just give it to them. If it is up in nowhere and
nobody is up there, all the land is going to no avail. Some specific area
should be given them once and for all and let them go and start trek-
king northward, southeast, westward, wherever it may be. If they
don't belong here; there is no need of them staying here and waiting
for your people to attempt to designate what they can do. If this be-
longs to someone else, they don't belong here, period.
Mr. LEE. May I elaborate?
Mr. LEE. Mrs. McLinden and several of the other witnesses indi-
cated Mr. Emmons came down here in December and had a great
number of conferences with these people in Dania and Big Cypress.
He promised the group at that time that he would do his best, as
soon as he found out exactly what each of the groups wanted, which
people belonged to which group, to try and work out something he
would present to the Congress or what other body had authority to
give them assistance on it.
Now one of the things he did request of this particular group here
was that the group define exactly what they wanted in terms of an
area to hunt and fish on. As I understand it, they did not ask for the
land itself, they simply asked for a reserve on which they could hunt


and fish and remain unmolested. As I understand it, they promised
They would send him a description of that area.
He has discussed their problems with a number of people in Wash-
ington. He has been awaiting specific definition of that area. He
still does not have it.
Dr. MILLER. Have you done that yet, Tiger, sent in this outline of
the land you want ?
Mr. TIGER. We are supposed to do that today.
Dr. MILLER. You are going to do that?
Mr. TIGER. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. Did you know you had about 230 acres of land for each
Indian down here that was held in trust for you?
Mr. TIGER. Yes, we know about it.
Dr. MILLER. You knew about it, and the lady says she didn't think
you knew about it.
Mr .TIGER. The Indians always say-the reservations you are speak-
ing about?
Dr. MILLER. Yes.
Mr. TIGER. The Indians always say those reservations are only,
you can hold them as long as you want, and you can take it back, and
they don't want that kind of reservation.
Dr. MILLER. Who can take it back?
Mr. TIGER. I don't know. Seems like they feel the people-I hate
to say this word-but white people they all work together so that
they have given land back during war, and they have been taken back.
They remember what happened before. So today they feel the same
Dr. MILLER. I see.
Mr. TIGER. This time they want the land. We want the land so
Indians can live, and hunt on it, and I think it is not too much for
you fellows to get together and just give to them and you can have
the rest of it. Let the Indians be happy.
Dr. MILLER. You had better get together and tell us what you want.
You are going to do that today, are you not ?
Mr. TIGER. Yes.
Dr. MILLER. Good enough.
Mr. SHUFORD. I would like to ask you one thing, Tiger. Your group
living down here, would you move to any other area ?
Mr. TIGER. We live here. We go in town, spend a couple of nights,
weeks, months, come back here. That is home they have along this
Mr. SHUFORD. Then you won't move out of this area ?
Mr. TIGER. No.
Mr. LEE. Could I elaborate upon one more point with regard to this
land ?
Mr. HALEY. Yes.
Mr. LEE. As Buffalo Tiger says, they have not designated the area
they want for hunting and fishing.
There is one other problem he hopes to get from them so he can
make recommendations to you people, and that is in terms of which
group of people want this particular area. As you have heard in the
past 2 days, the Indians come back and forth from the lands in the
north down here, and somewhere along the line there has to be a


distinction on what group these people are speaking for. So the Com-
missioner has suggested that the Indians align themselves with the
groups that want to live down here and hunt and fish, and with the
group that wanted to raise cattle, the group that wanted to stay in
Dania and work in town. And he has been working very hard on this
'problem. He appreciated the spirit in which he met with you people,
but it is not until he gets that information from these gentlemen that
the Commissioner or anyone else can get down to the problem of
actually solving the problem..
Mr. SILVER. Could I ask a question?
Mr. HALE,. You want to ask Mr. Lee a question
Mr. SILVER. Yes. For instance, the ones that live on the present
reservation today, do they have any guaranty that that land cannot
be taken-back from them and not used as a reservation ?
Mr. SHUFORD. I think that would be a question of law.
Mr. SILVER. Let me ask you that. Is there any doubt that this land
could be taken back, could be taken away from them ?
Mr. LEE. Do you want me to answer that ?
Mr. HALEY. If you can.
Mr. LEE.' I think there has been some questions on some reservations.
As far as these reservations here are concerned, I don't know. It is
my opinion-I do not know of any area that has been taken back in
the immediate past.
Mr. SILVER. Could it be?
SMr. LEE. I suspect that the Congress could pass a law to condemn
certain areas and take certain areas back.
Dr. MILLER. We can do that with anybody's land now. We can do
that to my land. The Government did it during the war, took land
away from me. They can do it with anyone in an emergency.
Mr. SILVER. They couldn't take all of it back.
Mr. HALEY. For public purposes.
Dr. MILLER. And that is the only time for the Indians, as far I read
Indian history, and I have been on the committee quite a while. If
anyone has been telling the Indians that, they had better straighten it
out and tell them it is not so, because Uncle Sam does not do that.
Mr. SILVER. It is possible though.
Dr. MILLER. It is possible to take anybody's lands, your land, if they
wanted to condemn it. It is part of the law.
Mr. SHUFORD. For public purposes.
Mr. SILVER. Let me ask one question. You mean they couldn't
take back other than through condemnation ?
Dr. MILLER. It has not been done. I suppose Congress, if it wanted
to do it, could. I do not understand there would be any Congress in
session-that would do that.
Mr. SILVER. But they could take it back other than condemnation.
Dr. MILLER. They can condemn it.
Mr. SILVER. Other than condemnation.
Dr. MILLER. I think Congress could do it probably if they wanted to,
but I would not expect it to be done, and I hope you don't go around
telling Indians they are going to lose their land, that Congress is go-
ing to take it away. That is pretty farfetched.
Mr. SHFoaRD. If they can take the Indians' land way, they can take
ours or anybody else's.
Dr. MILLER. Certainly.



Mr. LEE. I recall we have negotiated with a number of Indian groups
to take back some of the land for irrigation projects, but that has
been done by negotiation and after a very generous settlement has been
made. Certainly there is no recent history of the Congress or the ex-
ecutive department taking any lands away from Indians once they
have been set aside in trust for them.
Mrs. McLINDEN. May I ask one question before I leave? So my
understanding is that each and every individual, out of the figure,
whatever it is, is entitled to 200 acres of thereabouts according to
reports ?
Dr. MILLER. 184,682 acres in Federal land, and the State of Florida,
I understand, has given them 104,000 acres. So that is 288,000. If
there are 900 Indians, it would be about 320 acres for each Indian.
Mrs. MoLINDEN. For each one?
Dr. MILLER. If there,are 6 in a family, they have got over 1,800
acres of land to a family.
Mrs. McLINDEN. Yes. Is it possible-you know you could termi-
nate all of this very, very shortly if this could be done. Why not go
back and tell your group, or meet as you do, and attempt to give'them
this little land that they want, give them approximately the number
that you say they are entitled to. I think y6u would have a happy
ending tb the whole story.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much.
Who is the next witness, Mr. Taylor ?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Verne Barnes.
Mr. HALEY. Identify yourself for the record.
| Mr. BARNES. My name is Verne Barnes. I. am manager of the
Hialeah-Miami Springs Chamber of Commerce.
Mr. HALEY. Proceed with any statement you would like to make.
Mr. BARNES. Mr. Chairman, Ingram Billy, Sam Jones, Frank
Charley, and Jimmie Billy, Congressmen, I do what my organization
authorizes me to do, I can only say welcome to the country of the
Seminoles. You know that you are sitting under their flag. This is
their land. We who are privileged to share this land with them, we
SFloridians, are very happy in the interest that has been taken in
Washington in recent months.
In all of your deliberations, we hope that you will bear in mind that
you are not giving these Indians anything; you are only assuring them
of the help and protection that is their due, what is their own.
The attitude of the Chamber of Commerce of Hialeah-Miami
Springs and this group is simply one of helpfulness. We do not speak
for the Indians, we only speak what the Indians tell us to say. We do
not put words in their mouths, we do not try to guide their progress.
We believe that the council of Seminoles is very capable of handling
their own affairs. They have done so for hundreds of years.
We do offer this-and the council knows that we have this in writ-
ing-to appear for them in courts where perhaps they might be less
In bearing in mind the things that you have said about 220 acres
of land, I presume that you are thinking in terms of agricultural land,




and this is not an agricultural people primarily. It takes thousands;
of acres to produce wildlife for the subsistence of Seminoles as they
want to live and as they have a right to live, and as we Floridians,
who are their neighbors, the chamber of commerce that is closest to
them, both geographically and spiritually, believe that they have
a right, and to their religion and to their law and to their land, and
we will raise our voice in their behalf wherever we may.
We want to offer you our sincere services in any way that you can
find out the facts, and we beseech of you to find the facts.
Thank you.
(Discussion off the record.)
SMr. HALEY. Thank you very much.
Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. The next witness is Mr. Salvatore DeRosa.
Mr. HALEY. State your name for the record.

Mr. DEROSA. Salvatore DeRosa, 2231 Johnson Street, Hollywood,
I have lived in Hollywood about 7 years, and I live 3 miles from
the Dania Reservation.
I only have one question. About a year ago we had Mr. Marmon,
of the Indian Agency of Dania Reservation, taken out of there, where-
they had opened a saloon up across the street from the Indian Reser-
vation where these Indians were getting intoxicated and getting out of
hand there, and we had to do something in order to stop this, and we
had this place closed up and had Mr. Marmon taken out of there.
Now they took Mr. Marmon out of there and they replaced him some-
where else, and he was gone for a while, and then they replaced him
back again.
Now, the only reason I am here, I would like to know why he is
back there and why he isn't out of there like they were supposed to
keep him out of there.
Like Buffalo Tiger said, if he would only listen to their problems,.
I think these Indians wouldn't have this trouble at all then, and you
gentlemen wouldn't be here at all, but he just gives them a bum's rush.
in plain English to me.
That is all I have to say.
Mr. HALEY. Are there any questions ?
Mr. SHIUFORD. No questions.
Dr. MILLER. No questions.
Mr. HALEY. Call the next witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Robert E. Hanley.
Mr. HALEY. For the record, will you identify yourself ?

Mr. HANLEY. Robert E. Hanley, Indian affairs committee, Hialeah-
Miami Springs Chamber of Commerce.
Mr. HALEY. Have a seat, sir, and we would like to have any state-
ment you would care to give.


L- --------- -----------s~-- -------- - -----' ~-I~ --




Mr. HANLEY. Honored sirs, I can only reiterate as strongly as J
be permitted Mr. Barnes' sentiments, echo them as strongly as pos-
sible, in behalf of these people, our neighbors, who we feel are entitled
to the greatest and fairest consideration of your committee, and that
their pleas, as will be presented and have been presented, be honored
in the observance of their grant.
Mr. HALEY. Thank you. Are there any questions?
Mr. SHUFORD. No questions.
Dr. MILLER. No questions.
Mr. HALEY. I might state for the record that it is the desire of the
members of this committee, as I am sure it is the desire of the Members
of Congress, to fulfill every reasonable legal obligation that we might
have. I am sure you realize we are just representatives of the people.
We are trying to follow along the lines that we think are right and
just to these people. That is the reason we are here today.
We are very grateful to you for coming out here and giving us the
benefit of your statements.
Is there anything further?
Mr. TIGER. No. I think all right, gentlemen. Everything is all
Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much.
(Whereupon, at 3:20 p. m., the hearing was closed.)
(COMMITTEE NOTE.-Subsequent to the hearings, the following com-
munication was received and is herewith made a part of the record:)
MAY 15, 1955.
Re House Resolution 30.
Hon. A. L. MILLER,
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.
DEAR MR. MILLER: We attended your withdrawal hearing April 6, 1955, at
Clewiston, Fla., and wish to add a few recommendations in favor of the with-
drawal of trusteeship.
Our contacts with the Seminoles convince us that they possess the funda-
mental capacity to administer their own affairs. We think it is necessary for
the Seminoles to become united and that the Government should require them to
form a satisfactory organization before the trusteeship is terminated. This
would develop administrative experience in each community (or tribe) and put
into practice the individual responsibility of the decisions and actions that
concern all-building good citizenship. When the organization can function
efficiently, it should administer the disposal of the property and funds now held
in trusteeship.
Our recommendations are as follows:
1. All Seminoles of Florida to organize and incorporate.
2. All Seminoles of age have voice (vote-women included).
3. Elect an "All Seminole Assembly" (or council), annually, say of nine mem-
bers, without pressure of electioneering.
4. The assembly (or council) to employ the principle of consultation in making
decisions (majority rules), enabling the Seminole Nation to share responsibility
of termination.
5. All affairs now administered by trusteeship to be assumed by this organiza-
6. Retain Indian Agent, temporarily, as adviser.
7. All education to be through public schools, providing contact with others.
Respectfully yours,
0. M. DAVIsON, Jr.,
Baha'i, American-Indian Service Committee.






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