Interview with Elizabeth Wing, 2016 November 18

Material Information

Interview with Elizabeth Wing, 2016 November 18
Elizabeth Wing ( Interviewee )
Ryan Morini ( Interviewer )
Irv Quitmyer ( Interviewer )
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
Publication Date:
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Oral history interview


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Oral history
Florida Museum of Natural History
Women in science
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United States of America -- Florida -- Alachua


Dr. Liz Wing, widely recognized as one of the pioneers of the field of zooarchaeology, talks about her life growing up in Massachusetts, and experiences moving to Gainesville for graduate school. She describes her teachers and mentors at UF, and the process by which she simultaneously helped to establish zooarchaeology as a field of anthropological inquiry and build the now-internationally renowned comparative faunal collections at the Florida Museum of Natural History.

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UF Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
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UF Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
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All rights reserved by the submitter.
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UF-352 ( SPOHP )


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The Foundation for The Gator Nation An Equal Opportunity Institution Samuel Proctor Oral History Program College of Liberal Arts and Sciences Program Director : Dr. Paul Ortiz Office Manager : Tamarra Jenkins 241 Pugh Hall Technology Coordinator : Deborah Hendrix PO Box 115215 Gainesville, FL 32611 352 392 7168 352 846 19 83 Fax The Samuel Proctor Oral History Program (SPOHP) was founded by Dr. Samuel Proctor at the University of Florida in 1967. Its original projects were collections centered around Florida history with the purpose of preserving eyewitness accounts of economic, social, political, religious and intellectual life in Florida and the South. In the 50 + years since its inception, SPOHP has collected over 7 ,500 interviews in its archives. Transcribed interviews are available through SPOHP for use by research scholars, students, journalists, and other interested groups. Material is frequently used for theses, dissertations, articles, books, documentaries, museum displays, and a variety of other public uses. As standard oral history practice dictates, SPOHP rec ommends that researchers refer to both the transcript and audio of an interview when conducting their work. A selection of interviews are available online here through the UF Digital Collections and the UF Smathers Library system. Oral history interview t ranscripts available on the UF Digital Collections may be in draft or final format. SPOHP transcribers create interview transcripts by listen ing to the ori ginal oral history interview recording and typing a verbatim d ocument of it. The transcript is writte n with careful attention to reflect original grammar and word choice of each interviewee; s ubjective or editorial changes are not made to their speech. The draft trans cript can also later undergo a later final edit to ensure accuracy in spelling and format I nterviewees can also provide their own spelli ng corrections SPOHP transcribers refer to the Merriam program specific transcribing style guide, accessible For more information about SPOHP, visit or call the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program office at 352 392 7168. February 201 8


UF 351 Interviewee: Elizabeth Wing, Rochelle Marrinan, Eli zabeth Betsy Reitz, Irv Quitm yer Interviewer: Ryan Morini and Miriam Domnguez Date: July 22, 2016 MO: So, should we begin? Okay, if we can start, can everyone just kind of give your names? Just introduce yourselves to the camera. MA: Rochelle Marrinan I went to Florida State University. W : Im Elizabeth Wing, and Im retired. R : Im Elizabeth Reitz. Im at the University of Georgia. Q : And Im Irv Quitmyer and Im a research associate at the Florida Museum of National History, and Ive recently retired from the environmental archaeology laboratory. MO: If I could also ask just so, around what time were you at UF? I k now the answer is going to vary across the table. MA : Okay, I think Im the oldest student of Lizs hereprobably chronologically, too. But anyway, I was here as an undergraduate until 1971, and in 1971 I took a field school with Charles Fairbanks on Kincaid R oad basically out east of town. And for my field school paper, I needed a project A nd so, another graduate student, Ste ph en C u mba who was in the lab working with Liz at the time, suggested I choose one of the features in the site that had a lot of faunal remains and work on that. So he had to take me to introduce me to Liz to get permission to kind of hang out in the lab. That was my first experience. A nd then I left, and then Betsy came basically. R : Oh, yes [Laughter] Although, we overlapped. MA: Well, not really so much. I mean, I went t o Tulane for a couple of years, and during that time, Betsy came. And was thoroughly ensconced! [Laughter]


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 2 R : Yes, I came i t was probably [19]71? And does that sort of fit where you might think? MA : But you were doing a different thing. R : Yes. I started off doing a completely different master sor a completely different p roject and my roommate was studying with Liz Kass Byrd And I took Kass to the Jacksonville airport, and we had a long wait. She was going off to her dissertation research in Ecuador, and I waxed poetic about how important the anthropological education was and applied anthropology. And she waxed poetic about how important zooarch a eology and environmental archa e o logy were. And we convinced one another. She convinced me to come talk to Liz about changing my major or my field of specialization. Kass plunged ahead with her zooarch, but then she became a state archaeologist in Louisiana. [Laughter] MA: Didnt pursue zooarch so much. R : Yeah. MA: Yeah. Q : And l ets see : I came in 1979, and just prior to that I thought I wanted to be a historic archaeologist so I was working at a place in the low er northern peninsula of Michigan called Michilimackinac and we had recovered some faunal remains. And when I got back to the lab, I went to Liz and said, Im kind of interested in what this stuff is, and would like to learn to identify it. And so, she gave some space to me. A nd that turned out to be really interesting material. A nd then I guess it was a roughly late [19]79, [19]80, Liz came and asked if I would like to work a large project at Kings Bay Naval base. And its there that we went and


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 3 excavated numerous archaeolog ical sites where I headed up the sampling, and then later the identification of those materials. And then, I didnt go away. I stayed. So, t hank you. [Laughter] MO: Can I ask each of you what attract ed you to zooarchaeology ? Like what really or if not attracted, what really sunk its hook s into you, I guess? Or was it like, Okay. Im sticking with this. Im going to do this and not the millions of other things an anthropologist c an end up doing or trying to do ? W : The bones of course [Laughter] MA: I can start I suppose. I didnt go to college right out of high school; I went to nursing school. And anatomy, human anatomy, really interested me a great deal. One of my first courses here at the University of Florida when I came back to school was a human anatomy course with Bill Maples. But zooarch is everything else. Humans were pretty easy because theres only, what? 206, 207 bones? But fish! [Laughter] Fish are amazing! When I started learning f ish I would literally go home at night and close my eyes and thered be fish parts. Or Id dream and there were fish parts in the dream A nd that lasted for about a month, and then I was fine. But its making those mental templates when you start that are so much fun. Its just fun! I mean, its science, of course, but its just fun, because the bones theres just so many different kinds of things. And just doing a basic species list to see what you have in any site is pretty interesting. So, its like a puzzle, and its a lot of fun. W : Can I try to say something? R : Yeah. Why did you switch from ?


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 4 MA : F rom killing pocket go phers? [Laughter] R : I can understand why you get tired of killing pocket gopher s. MA: Stopped at three hundred, wasnt it? W : Oh, Ive forgotten MA: It was a lot. W : No, it wasnt that many. MA: I think it was. Seems like I read your masters thesis and I was shocked at your killing power! Q : You know Liz, we skipped over you. You didnt tell us when you came here. W : I came here after getting my BA up N orth. Q : Right. W : And the question waslet me think. Where can I go for further education to study whole animals not just cells, not just the function of cells, but the whole animal? What then Ill call ecology, but in those day s that was a hardly recognized term. And so, there were two suggestions from people I valued thei r opinion A nd one was Chicago, and one was the University of Florida. Immediately I thought, Chicago: t hat means city. Yikes! Ill go to the University of Florida site unseen. So, here I came, and it was the best choice Iveamong many choices that Ive made. I really really really enjoyed working, or studying in the Z oology D epartment at the University of Florida, specifically the Florida M useum of N at ural H istory, and it just went from there. M A: Well, I think its important too that you really made something where there was nothing. You literally created a zooarc h lab at first, and I have to say that when I


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 5 first came into the lab I was very impres sed by the baby food jars, and the Cheese Whiz jars particularly, and things of this sort that youd managed to collect to keep specimens in. W : That came at a crucial point in my life. [Laughter] R: Baby food, yes ; but whered the Cheese Whiz fit? MA: Yeah, what about the Cheese Whiz story? Q: Latenight writing. MA: [Laughter] I dont think so, because nachos werent a thing then. They just werent a thing. W: Yeah, but you needed a bigger jar. MA: Some things of course. R: So you ate Cheese Whiz as a sacrifice to the lab? W: I dont actually remember just consuming that inordinate amount. But, the baby food jars, yes. Yeah, that. Q: You know Liz, a while back I think that you, and I and Kitty we were talking about the effect of the D epression as a child A nd the reason that Im bringing that up is that it has to do with baby food jars also MA: And the Cheese Whiz jars. Q: And the Cheese Whiz jars, which are storage containers which are kind of outside the best practices of museums. But w e allow it. W: And they work ed well. Q: And they work well, yeah. So, c ould you tell us about ?


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 6 W: Oh, yeah. Well, I was born in 1932, and that was born t o parents who had suffered through great deprivation of D epression; first in Austria and then in this country. And thehow should I put it? The needing to savenot to throw away good stuff, just be frugal was ingrained in all of us at that time. And so, hence using the baby food jars : we didnt have to buy at that time anyway museum boxes of specific sizes, and confirmation. So, in every case we tr ied to use things that werethat we didn t have to buy, they were available. And we managed. Q: Taught self sufficiency. W: Yeah! Yeah. We managed. MA: I do blame you for my hesitation at dumpst ers and things of that sort. [Laughter] W: Youll never know what youll find. MA: Thats true; may be useful. W: Yeah. Y eah. Yup. And I came to the museum where there was no well, there was little space to begin with, and there was no zooarchaeology So, I majored in the study of mammals. There was room for that, and I just enlarged it a little bit to include study of the animal bones from archaeolog ical sites. And this followed a pattern that I learned early on. When I was in high school and college, duri ng the summers I worked at the Harvard Museum of Natural History using the comparative zoology. I was just a volunteer ; I did what I was asked to do. And one of the curators at the MCC had worked on animal remains from major sites in the N ear E ast. And she was working just on the mammals from that site. And so I saw that whole procedure while I was numbering bones and doing things of


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 7 that sort that one needs to do in museum collections. And so when I then came to the University of Florida, one of the first sort of assistant jobs that I had was workin g in the basement of the S eagle building with someone who was working on archaeolog ical materials. And I was to help him work on those materials. A nd that was an experience in many ways, because I dont know if you know the S eagle building, it has a ramp that goes down into the basement, and if it rains its a sluice for water. And so, they had concrete blocks arranged so that you could get into the collection with dry feet or more or less dry feet. Across the way there happened to be a colony of gopher tortoises that Walter Auffenberg was studying, but I was working in the anthropology laboratory there, and they had bags and bags of the discarded animal remains from those features where they were studying pottery and flint and so on. I thought, Hm That should be just for completeness t hat should be added on. And so, one thing followed another. Q: D id you have comparative collections there at time, Liz i n the Seagle building? W: There was in the mammal department and I only started with mammals and then went to herps and it was up to me to make the fish skeletons. R: The lower vertebrates [Laughter] W: The lowest of the low D: I have a question about comparative collections. You started the comparative collection at the Florida Museum of Natural History and you have in your institutions also worked with comparative collections. How was devel oping those


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 8 comparative collections if you could share some of your experiences on teaching collections? W: Sure. MA: Its the dark side [Laughter] Its the dark side of zooarch. W: Well no, the vital side actually. MA: Well its true. But getting there is the dark side. W: You can only rely on illustrations in manuals so far. I mean, theyll give a theyll maybe a diagram a cats skeleton. But how does that help you in identifying a mouse skeleton? You can identify the femur or the hum er us. They look similar. But in detail, and some of these details are very, very subtle. A nd so, we would start because they had it in the comparative anatomy classes, theyd have a go at or a dog or something mounted. Well that might be a start but then you have to get more detail from there to identify the remains from a mixed faunal assemblage. And, I think this reference to the dark side is that in order to get those skeletons, you might have to pick up roadkills and prepare them. Identify them first because you have the whole animal and you can identify it accurately and then make a prepared skeleton from there. Have you ever done that? D: Uh huh. W: So you know how to MA: No wonder D: My masters advisor is a zooarchaeologist. In fact the book that both Reitz and Wing. Its an important manual in the lab S o, yes. R: Where did you study?


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 9 D: At Binghamton. Its Peter Stahl. R: Oh! Very much. Q: Oh Peter Y es! W: Where? R: Peter Stahl. W: Oh! Yeah. Q: Id like to add about the use of collections and the sorts of things that all of these folks teach their students and Ill give an example here: i f you take a fish skeleton just the skull itself will have several hundred bones and then you have the post cranial part of it A nd so that s a known specimen. Youve seen it in the flesh ; you take it, identify it, and render it to bones. But can you imagine taking that whole skeleton, and putting it into a bag and taking a hammer and breaking it up? And thats what the archaeological materi als do. So, if youll give a thought here, most of our students have command over around a hundred and fifty to two hundred taxa. A nd so, most of those in our case are fish. S o lets say two hundred, and you multiply that times two hundred or three hundred elements in a skeleton and that tells you what they have command over. But then you take and break it up and they can actually identify each one of those little fragments. And so youve been there and know that but thats the sort of thing that is taught and we get from the comparative collections. D: So you worked in the Florida Museum of Natural History and had very limited space to start the environmental archaeology program. How was your relationship with the other departments within the museum p articularly when


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 10 we re talking about mammalogy or vertebrate paleontology i f you had sort of any collaboration going on? W: Oh sure, sure. Yeah. W ell and having done graduate work in th e mammal collection in mammalogy and then snooping around in the bi rd collection and the reptiles, getting to know the curator and explaining the reason for wanting to borrow a specimen in order to study it and all of those things. There comes a fairly collaborative effort and MA: I think when I was there, it was a zooarch aeology lab, and it was in natural science. So we were in the middle floor of the museum A nd I think it was an incredibly rich place to start a career in zooarchaeology because you had all the curators of the collections right next to you. All of us took anthropology courses but it was these other courses and a lot of the just day to day conversations. The curators were also very nice. They would let us sit in their classes. I sat in Mammals classes and Herps classes and things of that sort. Jus t not even as a registered student ; I just sat in. W e also had parties, a lot of parties. Every Thursday we would takethis goes back to the dark side. Every Thursday we would take something frozen out of the freezer because it was full of animals that needed to be macerated A nd so, we would defrost them Thursday night. A nd then, Friday morning we would all come in we had agreed to do this a ll the people working in the lab, because we neede d more specimens at that time i n the early [19]70s and mid [19] 70s, and then early [19]80s as well. So, we would have these maceration events every week A nd we got a lot of specimens, including ones that we were bringing in ourselves from roadkills and things of that


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 11 sort during that time. And we had these parties and everyone accused us of us ing roadkill in our parties. But we didnt! [Laughter] On top of the Bartram building we had a macerating emporium R ight? W: Yeah. MA: A place where we could basically macerate things A nd I understand that came to no good in the long run. [Laughter] But, while I was there we were moving stuff through pretty rapidly and it was really an incredible experience to see that happen and to get the things basically on the shelf and useful. So, it is one of the things that some stud ents can simply not tolerate. Ive had kids just leave me with a freezer full of smelly dead things because they just couldnt handle it. So, there is a part of what you have to do to get specimens that some students can manage and others simply cant. But, we also collect. I mean when we go anywhere, we collect. I mean, Betsy and I were in Haiti together and we went to the various markets. We went to where fishermen came in and we would buy their catch. I learned this in Mexico from Liz watching her go down to the beach every evening and buy the collateral catch of shark fishermen, and then come home and actually, what she would do i s fillet one side and salt the thin g and then it would be in the sun and dry. But I have to tell this story about being in Mexico and going through this process. Liz made all these collections during the two weeks we were there. A nd about a day or so before we left, it started to rain. So the most recent fish had not cured very well but we packed them all up in boxes and they became a part of our luggage. Well, I went to see I left Liz and her two children and went to visit an anthropology graduate student who was in


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 12 one of the communities near Guadalajara doing her ethnographic fieldwork A nd when I met them again in Mexico City, they were all sitting in the hotel where I thought we were staying and little Stevie comes up to me and says We are not staying here. They said our luggage smelled. [Laughter] So we were in a hotel around the c orner B ut anyway, these are just things that happen. When we came through customs in Tampa, we came through faster than anybody Id ever seen and I think it was you know, I really thought theyd look at every plastic bag ; t his is during high times for mar ijuana importation and things of this sor t. B ut they put us right through. Off we went. R: I sprayed mine withit was from Trinidad wasnt it? Q: Y ou know I was sitting here thinking about that. Betsy and I were in Trinidad together. Go ahead. R: Wel l and knowing that you all had had a certain amount of difficulty and knowing that my specimens didnt smell very nice, I got bug spray and I sprayed. I mean, I emptied the can into the container so that when somebody said, Oh this smells strange, I said Well I didnt want to import any insects and so I sprayed the contents A nd thats what youre smelling is the bug spray. They bought it. [Laughter] I was just amazed. MA: We would often go to the field with a garbage can. In other words, our luggage would be a garbage can, and then. [Laughter] Its true! So you put all your stuff in a garbage can, and you go to wherever it is like Haiti for me and then you ve got the garbage can to bring the fish back or whatever animals you had


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 13 back to the States A nd you just put them all in there and tape the thing shut and air freight it. W: I f it sat on the tarmac in the sun for a while MA: Well there was that. In Mexico. R: And thats what happened to the stuff I brought back from Peru. They called me up from the airport here in Gainesville and said, Your package has arrived. [Laughter] I drove out to the airport to pick up my package, which was a trash can and it was at the end of the runway. I mean, it was so far away from the buildings that you just couldnt believe it. W: But, this sort of thing happens. R: Yes. W: But, it need not be dreadful. But it takes some effort to make it less dreadful and we all tried to put that effort in. R: Sometimes we dont succeed. Q: You dont want to end up with a reputation, you know? [Laughter] W: And the other way of preparing these skeletons would be to give them a beetle colony to consume the but it has to be dried. Thats the problem. It has to be dried, and thats often difficult. With certain specimens its difficult. Q: Especially in the tropics. W: Yeah. MA: Beetles havetheyre also kind of, they have taste. W: Problems as well. Yes.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 14 MA: Some things they like better than others. But also, if they get loose then you ve got a real problem W hich is why we dont use beetles. W: Yeah they have to be down and elsewhere. R: Well I use beetles and it does not help with the odor. W: You use the what? R: Beetles. W: Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, well there is a little bit R: Right We share our facility with our next door neighbors or the enterprise technology folks, and any time there is any sort of odor that strikes them as just a little weird, they call up physical plant and physical plant comes. A nd it may not be me! W: No, it probably wasnt. R: It probably wasnt. W: They found someone to blame everything on. R: Thats right. All odors that are unsatisfactory emanate from my bug colony. Q: But its my understanding that youve reported to me that you have ha d a special relationship with those bugs during the winter. R: Oh yes. Well you know, I dont know if they were serving me or Im serving them. But as I prepare Thanksgiving dinner for them and that sort of thing. Q: Yeah. So you turn the lamp on, and ? R: Oh yeah. Theyre very smart critters. Well the heat went off in the bug room once. A nd what I did was I had a little space heater. So I brought in an aquarium into my office with the space heater and I would turn on the light, put my bag


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 15 down, turn on the space heater and the bugs got to the point where I d turn on the light, put down my bag, turn around, and they were all lined up against the glass against the space heater. Q: Waiting for work. R: Waiting for dinner! [Laughter] Waiting for warmth. Yeah, it was just amazing. W: Yeah, thats remarkable. R: I learned a lot about beetles having them in my office. B ut I was glad to get them out. Q: I have a question both for Liz and for Betsy. Do you think that zooarchaeology w ould have been invented in some other environment other than a museum? And the reason that Im asking that it was impressive to me that when you were talking about interacting with the various ranges, being able to go and talk with someone in birds or in f ishes ; y ou think it would have been? W: Well, when we work on the crosssection of the vertebrates the skeletons of the crosssectionyou know all of the fish, et cetera, et cetera. Often, the people that just work with the whole animal dont actually know the details of the skeletons S o, weve had people, curators, come. Now what is this? You know, some little bone and then they get interested. Not enough to go into it in depth often but all vertebrat e biologists have to know something about the skeleton and the relationship between the skeletons of closely related animals S o yeah, I think R: I think one of the really fascinating things about the Florida Museum more so before they started building walls inside the museum, was the holistic aspect


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 16 where the fisheries people, and the mammal people, and the paleo people all came to the Friday party A nd we went to their parties A nd that kind of interaction is just MA: Pr iceless. R: Yeah! You cant do what we do without that. MA: I worry now for the kids who are downstairs in anthro, because they dont get that kind of enrichment that we got. R: Yeah. MA: It was just critical. W: It was good. Yeah. R: Yeah. That kind of activity only takes place in a museum but it does take work even in a modern museum. When they get so large, its hard to get people to come together in some sort of meaningful way across those disciplinary boundaries B ut those disciplinary boundaries are real impediments to anthropology. W: Unless theres some feature of one of the departments that another department would like to get engaged in so to speak. I d try to think of an example, but R: Well ecology. W: Yeah. R: And climate change. W : Right, right. Q: Geo chemistry.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 17 R: Geo chemistry yeah. Particularly any of those studies, they are now finding that instead of us going to them asking for insights, theyre coming to us because were the ones that have the history and the time depth. T hey can look at modern specimens but they cant establish a chronology and we can. So actually I see us having been through a period, one, where peopleone of the things I tell my students is, at one point the people who did the studies of animal bones from archaeological sites were biologists A nd their students turned into anthropologists A nd all of those people ended up ultimately in museums I mean, theres a cycle thats been going on, and I think now zooarch is actually more integrated. T he environmental anthropology side of it is W: More integrated into the anthropology than in zoology where MA: Its pretty vital I think in anthro now. W: Yeah. MA: Pretty critical. W: Well thats good, though. MA: But going back to your question about it takes a museum I think it had to start in museums zooarch because you have to have the collections A nd d epartments of a nthropology dont have those kinds of collections. They may have collections of human remains or ceramics or lithics or things of that sort ; but in general, they dont have comparative collections A nd it really takes a museum to manage that well. I mean, my department has a comparative collection which is not really great because it isnt a museum collection. W: But it is a vital thing to have a comparative collection.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 18 MA: It is A nd I just think, when you look at, I guess Theodore White, and Parmalee, and others, most people of Lizs vintage basically in starting zooarch aeology come from museums. W: Right. Yeah. MA: I mean, White was at D inosaur but that was kind of like a museum. W: Sure, sure. Q: Yeah, I think thats right. W: Yeah. MA: So, anyway. I think the interesting thing is that the zooarch lab became an environmental archaeology lab, and I think that theres some real interesting stories. I think that the real transition occurs in the early [19]80s when other people become interested in slightly other things like invertebrates for example. Meaning crabs and mollusks and things of that sort; soils. Sylvia S cudder basically started looking at soils So, in essence we were looking at a broader variety of things and also publishing a kind of a manual to tell archaeologists who wanted to have work done by people in the lab, what we needed from them to be able to do the work. I think that was really critical as well. So, there were a lot of changes that occurred right in that period from about 1980 to [19]85 that I think were really pretty critical for th e lab. W: And this more holistic approach extends to the study of the skeletons because it used to be just the skull; J ust toss the rest of those long bones away. Weve got the skull . B ut


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 19 R: And y ou know I cant ID skulls ? The fish people will bring this whole bone into me the whole neur o cranium and say What is it? And I say I havent a clue! I never see that. MA: I find myself in fish markets lifting the lip of the fish. [Laughter] Its true. Q: Where was that t hat we were at the ICA Z ? I think it was R: It was Washington. Q: In Washington Served up a poached salmon. Remember that? That big huge thing? It was like flies on a carcass! Oh look at this! [Laughter] MA: Folded that sucker up! [Laughter] Q: Th ats right! R: Its in the collection. Q: It is. Was that Washington? Oh my God! R: Yeah, it was Washington. We scavenged the skeleton from the buffet table. MA: That was a good one. [Laughter] Q: I think one of the things that I always like to say about this multi disciplinary stuff that we do, and youve been hearing about here: its really the boundaries between those disciplines where these great discoveries are being made, and were starting to see that come out of National Science Foundation and folks like that. And so, I would point out here that it started very, very early at the Florida Museum A nd in particular, in the zooarch aeology lab. When I arrived there, I dont think we had very many, if any, mollusks in that assemblage. W: Thats correct.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 20 Q: And you pointed me to Doug Jones who was looking at the growth increments in shells A nd so, here we take and we pull a young man in from Princeton that had just gotten his degree and was studying growth increments and we told him what we wa nted to do. S o Liz got that started. Its also the networking where you bring those in. B y the way, Jones is now the Director of the Florida Museum of National History. R: Well planned! Q: Well planned. Good job! [Laughter] W: Yeah, thats terrific. Well, early on, if there was a question about a skeleton, well if you dont have the skull, throw up your hands in despair. The obvious step is, because its a whole animal it live severy part functions. And so, obviously the whole thing needs to be studied A nd . [ Cell phone ring that sounds like a train whistle ] Oh dear, did we say something bad? MA: Thats okay; I need to check my phone. Im a department chair and they know where I am. [Laughter] Ill just check. It may not be anything important but you never know. R: Actually one of the things that I often refer to in MA: Tania Paris says Have fun at the zooarch lunch. [Laughter] R: Hi, Tania! MA: Another student. A third generation. Q: Third generation, yeah. R: One of the things that I tend to think of is that and I actually think this is what attracted me to first anthropology and then to zooarch, and fairly quickly to the


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 21 broader environmental archaeology was, we dont really live along the boundaries ; we live between these disciplines in the spaces between them. Q: We do. R: And that gives you all sort of freedom and flexibility to pursueyou remember when Pauly came out with the trop h ic levels study? How rapidly you and Steve dove into that? W: Yeah, yeah. R: And now its a pretty basic I mean lots of people are doing that now A nd we wouldnt have done that if we were hidebound by a discipline. MA: Allometric scaling too. To view estimates of what the bone actually means in terms of flesh that people eat. I think that was really a breakthrough. I think the seasonality studies on clams that came out of Kings Bay ; all these kinds of things are really such contributions in different ways of thinking about how food is used, and what people go after. I think all those things h ave been really great contributions. Q: Which kind of brings us to a question: t he comparative collections by and large all twelve thousandplus specimens that are in there right now and still growing for the most part have weights and measures A nd so, my question: Liz when did we start taking weights and measures in those collections? W: In the comparative collections? Yeah MA: I think it started with the macerating sessions. W: Yeah true; very early on. MA: Because we did a lot fish.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 22 R: You were certainly doing it when I got there. MA: Then the crab thing. Q: The crab thing, oh yeah. MA: When you go to one of our parties sometimes, depends on what is going on in the lab, you may have to peel your stuff and let it be weighed before you can eat it because thats basically the way we got al l ometric scaling for blue crabs, stone crabs things of that sort which do show up in some sites in great quantities actually so theyre important. W: And always in little bits. Q: Little bits yup. So then in the 1980s we started doing that for the most part. D: Seeing you speak about the relationships as being in between the disciplines within the museum and Dr. Wing, you have started with these sort of analyses and defining zooarchaeology here in the United States ; how was the relationship with other archaeologists who were working with faunal assemblages in other parts of the world? H ow that correspondence has changed throughout time, and how it was with you, and how it has been wi th you all? People will come from, lets say from the Middle East and say I have this epiphysis of this bone. What is this? So it has changed. I want to say how zooarchaeology worked with anthropology in those earl ier stages? W: Well I think this i s a broad generalization that I probably shouldnt even articulate, but I was going to say is that, in the European collections and Im thinking primarily of the Netherlands and Germany t hey paid more attention to the whole animal rather than focusing on the skull as was done early on in this


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 23 country B ecause many of the museum collections sa y, of mammals would be skins and skulls, and the skeleton was too much trouble, I guess or not viewed as that important. So, early Im talking early onit was skins and skulls W hereas I think and I may be mistaken at that time in the Netherlands anyway they paid more attention to the whole skeleton. Im not sure that holds up, but thats sort of a general impression I have. B ut I think anybody working in zooarch n ow would use the entire skeleton. Im not sure thats the case in curators of mammal collections. I just dont know whether . R: Yeah. I think that actually, every region seems to have its own research questions and the collections that are used for those research questions tend to be appropriate for those questions. So, the Europeans would look at whole animals of mammals because they were interested in the history of domestication of domestic animals. W: Exactly! Exactly. But throw away the fish. R: Yeah. A nd the other is that they often looked at because theyre training the difference between the American style of anthropol ogy which includes the four sub fields that has social anthropology and archaeology and linguistics and physical anthropology all combined; in Europe, anthropology was a social discipline A nd archaeology was a separate discipline. So that you actually had an institutional barrier to studying animal bones from archaeological sites for purposes of studyi ng social history or anthropological questions A nd so, many of the researchers who were working in Asia, and Europe, and Africa didnt actually have a question about human behavior ; t hey had a question about history


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 24 archaeological history. So, their colle ctions reflect that, and the way they used them reflect ed that A nd over here, we were almost immediately there was a strong biological component almost immediately in departments of anthropology so that the questions were slightly different. The problem with saying theres a sharp line however, is that of course theres a fair number of people here who are based in the United States who work abroad, and there re also plenty of people from abroad who work in the Americas. So, for purposes of writing a cha pter on the history of zooarchaeology, you can put them in two separate containers but theyre really not. W: Yeah. R: Because the people cross those boundaries. But I think the questions change, depending on where you are. W: Where you were working. R: Yeah. MA: Well, I think also having appropriate collections for the area youre working can be a real difficulty. I think for example the Florida Museum does a good job with Southeastern U.S and the Caribbean. A nd I know we have a lot of South Amer ican material from work thats been done, and on material thats been worked on in the past. But, to do Near Eastern stuff, you really have to go somewhere else. O r borrow heavily from another museum which is sometimes very difficult to do. I think having the appropriate collection for the material youre working on can be very difficult and just finding the right place to do the analysis can be difficult as well and financially difficult.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 25 W: And building up a collection has all manner of legal constraints that very early on we didnt face to the degree they do now. Yeah. A nd importing collections is . Q: Yeah, CITES and stuff like that. R: Yeah, we tried to get a fossil whale bit up to Canada to be identified ? M an alive It was a fossil whale. It was not a live whale. It was a fossil whale, and it got covered by CITE S because its an endangeredand in point of fact, extinct species [Laughter] Quite problematic. W: Better save that one! R: Oh gosh yes! Heaven forbid that weactually ended up being hand carried to Steve Cumbaa Yeah. Actually one of your questions was about the role of Liz and sort of global setting and I would have to say that one of the most important roles I dont know whet her you think its this is the visitor ship. You know the number of people who come to this collection from all over the world to use it is I think quite remarkable and integral. W: Well and this probably stems from the fact that you cant just go out and get a skeleton of X, Y, or Z Y ou know its there are more and more li mits to developing a collection. MA: We should have gotten X, Y, and Z before CITES. [Laughter] R: Why is the last passenger pigeon someplace else? Its not in the zooarch collectio n MA: Passenger pigeons there were a lot of them that were done by Ward Scientific as skeletons for university labs and things of that sort S o thats pretty interesting.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 26 R: You think some of those old pigeon skeletons may be passenger pigeons? MA: Yeah! Exactly Y ou should check. R: I will. MA: Seriously. R: I got a headless something or other and . [Laughter] MA: It might be. Just have a post cranial. R: Its of the vintage. Q: You know Liz, last year for the environmental archaeology laboratory, talking about visitors, we had twenty four foreign visitors that came representing over sixteen hundred hours of research W: Oh good for them Q: d one in the laboratory. So, thats a pretty good legacy isnt it? R: Yeah. Well after the ICA Z meeting in Washington, I think a fair number of those people packed up their bags and came to Gainesville. MA: Yeah; well we had the fish. [Laughter] R: Exactly! Q: Whose bags did th at go back in? I think that was you Rochelle. You brought that back. O h my God W: Thank you, Rochelle. [Laughter] MA: That was funny. That was a funny trip. MO: So if I can ask, since youve kind of seen the field of zooarch developI mean really come from a time when it was expected that you would just ship the bones off to someone else to Lets actually really ask anthropological questions about


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 27 this Early on, was it difficult I mean, youve described a sense of community in the lab in the museum W hat about at national c onferences or with other archaeologists and things like that? Like did you have to build that sense of community? Were there people outside of the lab who were really interested in these questions or was that kind of a process of getting people to listen? W: I think as the field of archaeology developed, that seemed like the logical direction to take, and not just rely on a few tentative identifications for the skeleton material but actually look at the whole, whatever it was, excavated. A nd excavations also changed. The change that I experienced and you all would know better but, my impression was that it used to be, well Oh heres something that I recognize; well save it A nd then it changed to all of the skelet al material the bag of bones everything that was associated with that stratum or that pit, or whatever A nd so it became a more inclusive recording of what was there. MA: I think in the late [19]60s and early [19]70s the emergence of the socalled New Archaeology and the push f or better standards in the field of screening W: Oh, yeah; t hats really important. MA: Just greater control produced samples that could be informative. A nd I think once archaeologists found out what other kind of information they could get from faunaa nd also from flora, because theyre paralleling at this time. W: Yeah. MA: They were very interested. A nd that interest has stayed. A nd I think Im working on a paper with a former student t he one who just one of the things that we say


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 28 in this paper is t hat w e totally reject the world ecofact . This is something that B i nford basically started in the [19]60s ; h es apparently the first one to use this term A nd it was so dismissive of the kinds of information you can get from animal bones, from soils, from floral materials and things of that sort that it was used during a time that privileged pottery and lithics A nd maybe human remains and maybe architecture B ut those were the things that were really archaeology. Now we can really see that we can get at the kind of underbelly of what people are doing in the landscape. As one of my friends says All archaeology is about food, fundamentally Even these big Clovis points, its about food. Theyre not killing each other ; t heyre hunting megafauna. You know its about food. A nd so, one of the things I would like to really see is the loss of this word in textbooks for both plant and animal remains. I just think its dismissive and not germane anymore. Q: I think also theres a social component to what Ive learned from you, Liz A nd thats to be collegial B ut not only that, but to be friendly and to listen, and to discuss different viewpoints and that sort of thing A nd I think that thats again, one of the things that was imparted, I think in th e lab is to do that. W: Very important, very important B ecause we as zooarchaeologists have things to offer But our colleagues who have excavated those things obviously have lots to offer us S o you have to speak together and understand each other and then Rochelle mentioned the fine screening. I was on a rampage about getting people to do fine screening. That means a window screensize sieving, because thats where you would get many of the fish bones and the shrimp mandibles, and


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 29 thin g s of that s ort that were totally missed through the quarter inch or half inch gauge screens A nd until you see a value in that sort of information, its a lot of work to do fine screening MA: Its a real commitment to time in the field. F or any archaeologist figuri ng a budget it really is time consuming. W: Yeah, a lot of work. And it has to be worthwhile. A nd I think we as zoo archaeologist s can make it worthwhile by providing the type of information that otherwise would ve been lost. Theres no retrieving it. R: I think one of the things that occurs to me as Im listening to this, with the exception of Rochelle, we dont go out in the field and dig things up. So, in terms of our relationships with our colleagues, we have to offer them something, they have to come to us and ask. Over the years that Ive been at Georgia, I probably worked with about three hundred fifty different archaeologist s, and in each case they have questions that theres a reason for them asking me to work with them A nd sometimes those reasons need a little tweaking. And often, theyre offering me collections that have research potentials that theyre not thinking about. Im here working on a collection that was excavated in [19]94, and Im doing a restudy because the questions have changed. We had this interest we worked on the collection; and now I thought I was done in 2004. I t turns out that Im not done. So, its this conversation that goes on. A nd of course of the vast numbers of archaeologist s, they still do potsherd s and lithic s, benighted souls that they are. [Laughter] But the rest of us we work with that group of people who are interested in the environmental interface between archa eolog y human behavior,


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 30 the environment. And certainly I mean, what happened to me, the reason Im doing this restudy is that the questions have changed, the methods in terms of stable isotopes and analytical procedures have changed, and we can come back to these collections, which is another plug for museums. W: Theyre doing stable isotope and so much more now R: Yes. W: Studies that Q: You know Betsy at the SAA that we came from, I was impressed with your comments A nd its relevant to this discussion that we really, as a discipline, were more than a service group, where we just identify bones. They dont come to us just to identify the materials. They know that we have opinions about it, and that we have had experien ce with it. And so, again, something that Ive learned from, in fact, all of you is t hat we just dont give them a fau nal list. We write these things up. Its one o f our requirements that we sit and the zoo archaeologist puts pen to paper. And I think that s a critical element of what we do. R: One of the things I tell my students is sometimes the collections speaks to you MA: Tells you something about R: Tells you what you should be looking at. Q: I had to take some therapy for this [Laughter] R: You heard voices [Laughter] You hear voices in the middle of the night, thats probably not, yeah. Yeah.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 31 Q: You know one of the ways that if youre working in the lab with new students that are just beginning to become zoo archaeologist s, o ne of the ways you k now theyre starting to get it is they actually dream about it. And, yeah. R: Ive ID d bones in my sleep. [Laughter] You know? MA: The truth is I cannot say that Im a zoo archaeologist I can say that I can do zooarch, and I can teach beginning students, and get them started, and send them on their way to somebody else whos got better collections and better opportunities to work like Betsy, like Liz used to be, and things of that sort. So, I dont I ve really done more field archaeology in my time working on Spanish missions. And in dreadful circumstances for the preservation of faunal remains O ne good feature in twenty years of working on missions. So, i ts just the way the soils are in the red hills just very tannic. So, we dont get good preser vation. B ut I think for me the time I spent in the lab, especially the time I spent as a doctoral student, and then as a postdoc with Liz in a lab where there were grad students, where there were undergrads, it was very interesting because we often worked on each others materials W e often worked i n the field together. It just was a very growthfu l place to be. And another thing, too: while anthropology is supposed to be holistic and inter disciplinary, the zooarch range really was. And I think that was an important experience for many of the students who took the class just for interest. R: Bec ause I dont think you can ever forget that youre working with humans of a relic of human behavior, and that this is a biological relic of that human behavior. Whereas I think pots can beceramics can g et reified into something quite


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 32 MA: [Inaudible 1:07:00] R: y es right W hereas I dont think you can do that. I think you always have to remember this is an anthropological conresult of anthropological behavior. O ne of the things about the lab that I think that we tend to forget, although I remind my students of this, is that when I first started off I didnt know how to spell Odocoileus virginianus [Laughter] Two hundred times writing it, trying to remember how to spell it ; and plagued Rochelle and K ass for help! And then in turn I got plagued after they left B ut the students teaching one another is a dynamic that I think the labis absolutely crucial, and you serve your time as the plague, and then your obligation is to be. MA: Most definitely Liz definitely got plagued by me! Just definitely R: And I see that in my lab, where the senior students are plagued by the junior students. And once I had one come a nd complain to me, and I said, No. Its your turn. [Laughter] MA: Its really true. R: Yeah! Q: So if you have a question of how do you teach interdisciplinary work : plague them. [Laughter] MA: Plague them, yeah. W: Very stimulating though. Q: Yeah i t is, isnt it?


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 33 W: To make time is really stimulating, because everybody working on different collection s, with different information to be gained, and different settings, and you have to really think R: Yeah. Im seeing thats going on in the lab right now with the people working on the south Florida project. Theres a young individual in there, and the way they come in, they help her and thats a tradition thats just terribly important. And I suspect that i n many more hierarchical labs that wouldnt happen. W: Also, helping each other can confirm what you believe, or make you question what you thought you believed, and all of that is really pretty healthy. [Laughter] Yeah. MA: Another thing too is that we worked on different kinds of collections S o someone might be working on a historic collection, lot of domesticates in it. My collection might be prehistoric with no domesticates whatsoever. And being able to see what was going on in a different site, in the lab, was really very helpful to you. It kind of prepared you for the time when you would do a similar project. So And it was just a great place to be. There are times in your life I think when you are in a situation where learning just occurs A nd its so intense A nd you dont have periods like that often, but when they happen, they really change your life. Q: Yeah. Y eah. MA: The right group of people, the right circumstances, the right kinds of collections, and the right opportunities; its just an amazing thing. And thats what the lab was for me. Q: Me too.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 34 R: Ive never regrettedI dont know why K ass went off and been a state a rch a eologist, but Im delighted she talked me into coming to see you. W: As am I. R: [Laughter] Thats very nice. B ut I never ever thought that that was a poor choice. I meanI was ready to leave archaeology I just was not interested in what they were doing. Q: Well you know, Liz, one time I was thinking about leaving and I talked to you about that A nd you turned to m e and you told me, Well, you know, Irv, none of this is wasted time. And that has always stuck with me. W: Oh! How good. MA: Thats the truth about anthropology, actually; nothing is really wasted. Even, like having a nursing vet and things like that washas been very helpful. Ive known all the diseases I c ould get in the field. [Laughter] R: Thats right, exactly Q: Yeah, but it turned you into a really fine scientist, though. MA: In a way. The fun thing about it all is that we are all learning still. Thats the fun thing. W: Yep. MO: If I c an ask one more question about thewell, youve described the atmosphere in the lab but Dr. Marrinan you also wrote that the W ing farm was kind of an oasis for students as well. R: Oh yes! MO: S o I was wondering if you might have some things to say about that.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 35 MA: Well, there have been two W ing farms. One was on Bivens A rm w e would have to say E ven though it wasnt as palatial in terms of the spread as the one near Alachua. But, just to be aske d for dinner and things of that sort was a lot of fun, because they had amazing animals. I mean, the peafowl were really the peacocks and peahens A nd the pugs. These we re the first pugs I ever saw. The goats. Q: Could you share the guinea pigs? Do you re member that? R: Actually, I remember thewas it a turkey? A male that was not socially i t kept attacking you, so you just turned around, and its in the collection now. [Laughter] MA: And then there was Ginger ; Ginger the goat, who found her way to the table. Q: Oh what was that goats name? Calico. Calico. W: There ve been so many Ive forgotten. Q: Ca lico wa s the one that got hooked by B aby Doc, the water buffalo. MA: Yeah, well, that was at the Alachua f arm B aby Doc was a water buffalo. Q: But I was thinking about the guinea pigs that Liz was keeping and Liz sent the kids off someplace, and had Peruvian friends to come. MA: I dont know this story Q: No, youre the one that blew their cover. Because t he kids were standing there, and said, Oh, well Liz told us that the guinea pigs had gone off to the pet store. [Laughter] W: Oh dear. Q: Well, I hadnt intended to tell that. [Laughter]


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 36 R: Actually, I knew Liz long before I ever met you. When you were on Bivens A rm and the place, our friends the K rezdorns were on the other side of Bivens A rm And I kept hearing thesemy entire childhood, I would hear these r aucous screams, and never had a clue what they were. And years later when I went to the farm, there they were, making this raucous scream, and I finally solved the mystery. W: Peacocks, yeah. MA: They were great. R: The soun d just carried across the water, and, yeah. MA: Then at the Alachua one, there were those funky chickens. Those little bantams. Youd never sleep late at the farm. Those chickens R: Well, it was dawn someplace [Laughter] Q: Well, you know, Rochelle, when Janice and I moved in to our present day house, I told Liz that I wanted to have chickens. And she goes, Well, Ill give you some chickens, but youve got t o take a rooster. And that was the deal that I had to haul one of her roosters off So. And it was one of those little bantams. W: Getting up at four is good for the soul. R: Not really [Laughter] MA: Yeah, I did it this morning. But it was also true that in going to the farm, we were kind of a part of the family, although the kind of odd sisters or brothers or something of this sort for the children, and for Jim. And Jim was a potter, and so what he di d was very interesting too. And that was really a lot of fun for us, and


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 37 so very different than living in a dorm, or an apartment, or whatever we were doing. It was just nice to be there. W: That was pretty . MA: I wont go there. [Laughter] W: Oh, we had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. And actually, for the childrenand Im talking about my children, not these childrenlearning about animals and taking care of them, and whats needed, and how to keep them safe, and all of those things I think were important for their upbringing ; and living in the woods so to speak. And both the childrenI have are daughter and a son both of them call themselves swamp children, because for a while on the Bivens A rm when we lived at Bivens A rm there was sort of a woods, but it often flooded. It was wet, so that was the swamp childrens place to explore. And, as I think about it in my old age, we didnt really perhaps hover enough over them to keep them safe B ut they seem to figured out you dont pick up a rattlesnake without thought [Laughter] Q: Snake hook W: They seem to have stayed safe. Thank goodness, thank goodness. R: Well, I think if you hover over them they dont learn these lessons. MA: Well, the W ing children were pretty interesting anyway. One Christmas Stevie gave Liz for Christmas two dead birds. Remember? W: I dont remember. MA: One was a least bittern. W: Ooh!


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 38 MA: Things that we didnt have in the collection; I mean they were great. And I cant remember what the other one was, but it was something equally W: Precious. MA: a rail, actually And I thought, W hat kind of kid is this? He gives his m om two dead birds for Christmas? But when we were in Mexico, one evening we went down to the beach to buy the collateral catch, and that day they had caught a tiger shark. And Stevie was seven years old at that time, and he was his eyes just got so big and he had to have the jaw. He just had to have the jaw. But Stevie stood in the carcass of that tiger shark and tossed out twenty seven fetal sharks that had not been bornI mean, theyre livebearers And so these had might have been born before the mother died A nd he walked off down the beach with his hand in his moms and he said to her, This has been the happiest day of my life. [Laughter] T ruly ; that i s no exaggeration! W: Yeah, yeah. They have a lot of experiences ; birthing all those sharks R: Well, and now hes a marine biologist. MA: Exactly! W: Naturally. MA: I was also very impressed that Stevie understood the difference between P acific fish and Atlantic fish, and that they were different. And s o many different species. When we were on the west coast in Mexico, we were seeing P acific fish for the first time wh ich was fun for meand he already knew this So, it was fun. Stevie was fun. W: Yeah, he was.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 39 MA: Well actually when we got on the plane and Molly took your hand, he had to take mine. So, t hat was a pretty amazing trip. Coming back our plane blew a compressor on takeoff in Mexico City, so we sat on the ground for a long time. And our luggage got smellier and smellier. Then they took everything off the plane and put it out in the hot sun, on the tarmac and it got even worse. But I w as I think in my late twenties at that point, and going back remember I was offered a coloring book by the stewardess, and we just thought that was remarkably funny! [Laughter] W: Thats right! [Laughter] Well weve had a lot of fun. MA: We have. Still t o have more fun. W: Yeah, that was good. Yeah. MO: Okay, I think youve covered a lot of territory. MA: [Laughter] I think so, too. MO: Do you have any final thoughts that you would want to share, or ? W: I guess, just from my perspective, that our r e arin g children in the woods so to speak I mean we ha d table manners too, you know? [Laughter] They had to have a range of behaviors that were acceptable. A nd in fact our daughter went and lived with my mother for a year in Vienna. And so she learned a lot from that experiencew ell, learning to speak German, for one thing was a good thing. Went to school in the same school my mother had gone to. A nd Steve didnt have that kind of an experience. But he had a lot of natural history experiences that I think b oth of those served the children well in their adulthood and passing


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 40 it on. Its not possible for everybody to rear their children in quite such a bizarre fashion, but well, I mean different fashion. MA: Well Steve became quite a groupie for the zooarch ki ds too. We used to take him to the Rathskeller [Laughter] He was unfortunately still in high school, but he seemed to fit in pretty well. We did have to drive him home sometimes. He was not safe on his bicycle. W: Oh, dear. Yep. Anyway, those were fun times. R: Well, and I think in terms of zooarch, and environmental archaeology it was just a remarkable ability to start somethi ng that is really so integrated. W: Thats the important thing. R: Yeah. I mean, played out in the chi ldren, and in us. MA: Your professional children. R: Your professional children, right. W: But an example of that is the mammologist who used to only work on the skull instead of the whole animal. Its a metaphor is the word. R: Well you have intellectual great grandchildren now. Q: Mmhm. R: Speaking of Peter Sta h l, one of his students w as Barnet PavaoZu ckerman and Barnet then came to me, and she is now a professor at the University of Maryland with her own students. So, yeah. W: Thats fun, yeah. Q: And Betsy, you told me that you had one of your students that is now in retirement or


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 41 R: Im not going there [Laughter] MA: Its amazing to me! It is. I mean people stop so early. Q: You know Rochelle when my retirement party came up MA: You didnt even tell me. I asked you if you were having a retirement party. Q: I didnt know. MA: I would have come. Q: I know you would. I didnt know. They were afraid that I would refuse, but R: They thought you would leave the building. Q: Yeah. Yeah, that was right They were afraid I was going to leave the building. But one of the things that I noticed is that most of those people in the room I d seen most of them hired. Id seen their children come along and you know. MA: We hired one of ours who had come here Tanya P eres who i s here in Florida. So we have a third generation. Q: Wow! W: But its great to see that. MA: Oh yeah. And r eally interest ing And whats so interesting to me is all the things that shes into that we wouldnt even have conceive d of when we first started. And so, t he field has really just gone in a lot of different ways a ll of them pretty coherent, but there are many different things now that can be done that we reall y . Q: Lots of real creative people.


UF 351; Zoo archaeology panelists ; Page 42 MA: Shes been working on turkeys lately, and I have this wonderful turkey gorget that I bought at one of the southeastern conferences Im waiting for that paper to be finished and then Ill give it to her. Ive been looking for a home for that for years. MO: I know theres a lunch that people have to R: There is. MO: So. But yeah. T his has been great. Thank you very much for all coming together. MA: Its been f un for us. W: Yeah! MA: To tell stories about ourselves. W: Just to be together, yeah. Q: Ryan, thank you. R: Yes, thank you. MA: Thank you all. [End of interview] Transcribed by: Sandra and Jennifer Romero, November 2, 2017 Audit edited by: Ryan Morini, November 21, 2017 Final edit by:


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