Our third century, directions


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Our third century, directions
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Table of Contents
    Front Cover
        Front Cover 1
        Front Cover 2
    Title Page
        Page i
        Page ii
    Table of Contents
        Page iii
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    Opening statements
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    Panelists: February 4-6, 1976
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Full Text




... .. . ..l.




( 1


h v

94th Congress COMMITTEE P2INT
2d Session







FEBRUARY 4, 5 AND 6, 1976

Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations



For sale by the Superintendii- of I)oocuIn)oI I.S. ; ov ,r iwmtt Printig0 m ico
Washinlgton,. ..2110 -P ic ",



SAM NUNN, Georgia

ABRAHAM RIBICOFF, Connecticut, Chairman
kN, Arkansas CHARLES H. PERCY, Illinois
N, Washington JACOB K. JAVITS, New York
E, Maine WILLIAM V. ROTH, JR., Delaware
ntana BILL BROCK, Tennessee
klabama LOWELL P. WEICKER, JR., Connecticut

CHARD A. WEGMAN, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
PAUL HOFF, Counsel
ETHEL GEISINGER, Professional Staff Member
JOHN B. CHILDERS, Chief Counsel to the Minority
BRIAN CONBOY, Special Counsel to the Minority
ELIZABETH A. PREAST, Assistant Chief Clerk


Introduction ----------------------------------------------------- VII


Senator (Glenn -................................................... 1
Senator I(ercyy----------------------------------------------------.2
S en ato r R ibicoff ................ ........ ....... .......... ..-3
Senator Javits -............................................5
Rockefeller, Hon. Nelson A., Vice President of the United St'les--6
Senator Htumphrey: Prepared statement------------------------------ 38
Senator Ribicoff: Prepared statement-------------------------------- -4
S. 1795, text of------------------------------------------------ -40
Alexander, Clifford, attorney, Verner, Liipfert, Beriilrd, McPher-4on,
a n d A le x a n d e r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .-7 3
Barnet, Richard, the Institute for Policy Studies------------------------66
Bunting, Mary, former president, R.adcliffe College7------------------- -67
Commoner, Dr. Barry, Washington Univerit.---------------------------65
(Grayson, C. Jackson, Southern Methodist Un'iversitv------------------ 71
Moos, Malcolm, Center for the Study of )emocrtic Institutions--------- 71
Toffler, Alvin, author------------------------------------------------ 68
FEBRUARY 5, 1976
Ash, Roy, former director, Office of Management and Budget------------102
Johnson, Nicholas, National Citizen Community Broadcasting----------104
Linowitz, Sol, Coudert Brothers_---------------106
Rivlin, Alice, Congressional Budget Office- -108
Rostow, Walt, professor of economics and history, the University of
Texas at Austin_-------------------------------- ---------------- 110
Ruckelshaus, William, of Rucklshaus, Beveridge, Fairbanks, and
Diamond ------------------------------------------------------- 121
Seamans, Dr. Robert C., Jr., Energy Research andD )evelopment A(1-
ministration---------------------------------------------------- 123
Zarb, Frank, Federal E, nergy Administration--------------------------125
FEBRUARY 6, 1976
Bergsten, Dr. Fred, Brookings Institution-----------------------------152
Fuller, Buckminster, world fellow in residence, C(ns(ortimn of Universitv
of Pennsylvania, Haverford College, Swart hnm(,re( llege, Bryn Iawr
Goldmark, l)r. Peter(.----------------------------------------------.212
Knowles, l)r. John 11., I1ockefeller Foundation_ -------------------167
Pauling, l)r. Linus, Linus Pauling Institute of Science and 'M(edicin1---------153
Ra'skin, Marcus, Institute for I(4licy Studies-....- 209
Skinner, Prof.. F., tlarvarl tnivrsity- ..-------------- 165
Weidentaum, 1 )r. MIirraiy l,., WL-ihing()n1 1. Iliver-.il v------------5S


Alphabetical list of panelists: Page
Alexander, Clifford ---------------------------------------------73
Ash, Roy-----------------------------------------------------102
Barnet, Richard------------------------------------------------66
Bergsten, Dr. Fred---------------------------------------------152
Bunting, Mary-------------------------------------------------67
Commoner, Dr. Barry-------------------------------------------65
Fuller, Buckminster--------------------------------------------271
Goldmark, Dr. Peter C-----------------------------------------212
Communications and Survival-------------------------------216
Grayson, C. Jackson------------------------------------------- 71
Johnson, Nicholas----------------------------------------------104
Knowles, Dr. John H-------------------------------------------167
Clarity of Thought and Higher Education---------------------178
Health in the United States: 1776-1976-----------------------182
Interdependence and Global Crises--_-------------------------171
Responsibility of the Individual, The_-------------------------193
Linowitz Sol ....-106
Moos, alcolm------------------------------------------------71
Pauling, Dr. Linus---------------------------------------------153
Prepared statement.----------------------------------------154
Raskin, Marcus-----------------------------------------------209
Rivlin, Alice--------------------------------------------------108
Rockefeller, Hon. Nelson A_--------------------------------------6
Rostow, Walt-------------------------------------------------110
Prepared statement----------------------------------------115
Ruckelshaus, William------------------------------------------121
Seamans, Dr. Robert C., Jr--------------------------------------123
Skinner, Prof. B. F---------------------------------------------165
Toffler, Alvin--------------------------------------------------68
Weidenbaum, Dr. Murray L-------------------------------------158
Prepared statement----------------------------------------160
Zarb, Frank--------------------------------------------------125
Letter sent by Senator Glenn to prominent persons inside and outside of
Government requesting their views on long-range planning for the third
century of the United States---------------------------------------297
Responses to Senator Glenn's letter from:
Institute for Policy Studies, Marcus G. Raskin, with attachnient... 303
Fuller, R. Buckminister, with attachment----------------------- 316
U.S. Department of the Interior, Bureau of Mines, Thomas V. Talkie,
Director, with attachment-------------------------------------320
Committee for Economic Development, Frank W. Schiff, vice president
and chief economist, with attachments--------------------------340
Gelman, Norman I---------------------------------------------380
National Urban League, Inc., Ronald H. Brown, director-----------384
3M Co., Jerome D. Schaller, manager, government relations_---------386
Bechtel Corp., Caspar W. Weinberger, vice president---------------390
U.S. Department of Commerce, Samuel B. Sherwin, Deputy Assistant
Secretary for Domestic Commerce-----------------------------393
National Endowment for the Arts, Nancy Hanks, Chairman---------396
Clarke, Phipps, Clark & Harris, Inc., Kenneth B. Clark-------------398
U.S. Department of the Interior, Office of the Secretary, Thomas S.
U.S. Energy Research and Development Administration, Robert C.
Seamans, Jr., Administrator-----------------------------------404
Lindquist, Warren T., with attachment_---------------------------406
Harvard University, department of sociology, David Riesman-------420
American Society of Planning Officials, Israel Stollman, executive

C(tminings, Hichard --424
University of 1)ytoit, Siilh:th (. Jainl, i-(,c1.1tclrl ,r ,il
attach-1ent ... ..25
Mortgage 1iaikers:k :s.oeittiOn of IlXierica, Oli'o r 11. \Jojcs, ,xcuti ,L
vice )resident, vit iatta'lih iit . . . .. .175
Anierican Institute of Arc hit cts, Th ne, iclla( I,). Bark, I, (pajtilleiit
of environment and design- ------- 4 ----
University of Califorinia, Berkeley, Loniard J. uhl, il M.I., jprofc -l r
of public health and urban social policy, with att:tchinen t_4 <*
IUniversity of Pennsylvania, Britton llarris, ofr fc,.r of city aii(I
regional planning. . . .. ... 12
D owntown Deliver, Inc., Philip -Milsteiii, { x(cutive vice president 494
Graduate School and Uiiversitv Ccnter of the Cit, Uitiversitv of Now
York, Sewnour X1. Finger, director, with atttc.hJiIH lit
Paley, W illiam ..S ------------------------------ - -522
B a ro n M artin ... . . . . . . . . . ... . . . ... . . ..- -,2 4
Brookings Institution, The, C. Fred Bf.rgteu, teuiior f(llhw_ .. 525
1)aedalus, Harvard University, Stephen It. ( 'raibard, editr 7-527
Iarvard University, (1(eorge C. Lodg(, )r(,fessor of isiniio - imij-
istration, with attach ent ------ -- --- --------- -- ------------ 529
Kent State Uiiiversity, Glenn A. Olds, president -. ...- 574
Voorhis, Jerry ---------------------------- -- ------------ ----.77
Center for Governmental Resosiility, ['niver'.itv of Fh ri: 7S
Clement Bezold, assistant director, with attachmeut- 7S
Bendix Corp., The, W. Michael Blumenthal, ehairn:tn and presideiit- 597
University of Maryland, Mancur Olson, with attach ients .....----- -- 6
Washington Center for Metropolitan Studies, Peter Se hauflier ...... i27
}WSM i nc., William G~. Swain, with attachnieiit - 629
Washington University, C enter for the Studv of A "i"erican Iuzines,
Murray L. XWeiden)'tm, director, with attachnIe t----------- 6'j.
Resources for the Future, Inc.:
Clawson, al-trion, consultant----------------------------654
Hitch, Charles J., with attachment_ 658
Advisory Commission on lIntergovernInental Relations, )avid B.
Walker, assistant director-----------------.... 66
American Association for the Advancement of Science, Williamt A.
Blanpied, head, division of public sector prograins_ -------- 675
University of California, Santa Barbara, Xilliain It. Ewald, Jr.,
professional researcher, series VI .. ..678
Library of Congress, The, Franklin P. 1luddle, seiior specialist in
science and technology, with attachnent -............ 6S2
University of Illinois at Uirbaina-( 'ha Ipaign, Scott Key es, professor of
urban and regional 69nning .. ..... .. .. 61
Chamber of Commerce of the [nited States of America, lichard L.
Lesher, president, with attachment -................... 694
Sporn, Philip, consultant ... .69S
University o of California, Berkelev, William L(. '. \Weaton, dean-- 706
Southern Methodist University, C. Jackson G ravson,7 Jr -.... 70S
Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Kanipelman, lax M. Kani pel nii- 710
Petrucci, Anthony, with attachment---.--- ---. 712
(Georgia Institute of Technology, William I 1. Sangster, dea. 720
Florida State University, The, Bernard F. Sliger, executive \ ic+e
president- --- 7-2
Williams College, James I\lac( regor Burns, with attachnnt --- 724
Conference on Economic Progress, Leon 11. 1Keyserling7 727,
Marion, Id., Allen Barber, director, conimnunitvelop\(h'" )ment,w ith
attachm nen t~ .. . .. .. .. .. ... ... .. .. .. ...... .. ... 2
University of Pittsb)urgh, -Michael J. Flack, pro)fe'ssotr of international
and interctulturai affairs-- 73:
University of California, Santa Bar)ara, O)tis L. I rahin), Jr., liro-
fes or-. . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . ... . . . . ... . ..... .-7 3 4


Haiman, Peter Ernest, Ph. D_-735
St. Louis, Mo., John H. Poelker, mayor-------------------------736
Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental Relations, Robert E.
Merrian, chairman, with attachment--------------------------738
Ash, Roy L., with attachment--779
Rand, Donald B. Rice, president-------------------------------781
Black Economic Research Center, The, Robert S. Browne, director.- 783
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Alvin L. Alm, Assistant
Administrator for Planning and Management, with attachments--- 786
Department of Commerce, Elliot L. Richardson, secretary-----------811
Federal Energy Administration, Frank G. Zarb, Administrator-------814
Council on Environmental Quality, Russell W. Peterson, Chairman_- 817
Letter from Patricia S. Knack, with attachment----------------------820


(B~y eoator Abe Iiibic:otI" and Se5nator .Jo]ln l ,ljl)

We live in all iireasiiigl Vco nplex te(,1holoj'ical society. a society
i, Ivhich AltheI')Votectionl a11)d proll-otioln of our interest s requires gov-
erni ient actioil. All too often, however, tlis action takes the fo-III of
crisis (iCIiae llt. of elat1in oldy in the face of i ui 1enino-d di a..tster.
In the last (lelade all of us lave had our filI of crises. W\e have been
iirweiit1 v alerted to tlie urban crisis, the ecolooi{al i'" is. and the
,uerj'.v Cr:sis. T lTese ('rises haove been real. but they have also el i '
r i 1v avoial )le. () ur failure to look ahead an(d to recog nize the intpli-
catioi is of our )oli(ies a l actions has il >Some cases lllowed l rol1(e'll:S
to reach crisis proportions nil in other ('aM's has cal ised 1 iuto tiss
o)ortunities for improving the quality of life for Allericanls. For
exaniple. we failed to see tha t many of o policies contributed to th e
(deterioration of our great cities. Then we were forced to react urfrently
to, an "urban crisis with ad tboe solutions whiich nma lbe1creating still
other unrecognized probleins. This is a situation we shouldd have fore-
>eei filnd avoided.
In a similar way we failed to anticipate the consequences of our
(eleildence on ('heal) foreign oil. Our past failure to develop o111 coal
resources. invest sufficiently in alternative energy sources, and estal.)-
lish a vigorouS energy conservation program has made our economy
vulnerable to foreign pressure. Thus. we did not focus on the question
of efficient energy use until we "discovered" the energy crisis at the
time of the imposition of the Arab oil embargo in 1973. Foresigiht
could have mitigated the confusion and near-palnic. We pay for our"
failure to look ahead: we pay in 'rises and in lost opportunities.
Crisis management is not the way to govern. Through crisis mian-
:,uemient we can only plu., tte dike, we cannot reroute oi -reverse the
t1ood. ro imlrove th~inigs requires more than a franti i search for the
solution to a current l) 'olem it also requires lookii, alead. In 1)1si-
ness and in our personal lives we try to ant i(ipate 1)roblelns anl(1 to
seize available opportunities. We should expect t lie s1111e foresiZI t
froin our ,ovennent. Policy development usit in( li(le a "Iprediction
of likely results.
Too often we have dealt with problems on an ad oe basis without
exa1 nation of the lone' ran,.e impact of our p rolra11s. We (e0iUm
'eliedies for past and present problemss witlot trvinIi to aii'tici'ate
the future. Thiis is easier in the short run. but it onlv leads to ,.'ea1 ,v
prolvlnls later.
This svn ipoiunmn was called to examinee to what extent tlui, ,overi-
nment can and does look ahead and to find ways to improve olim' L-ovL' i'-
ments ability to face the future with less ucel'taitv.


A s is obvious from this volume, the symposium brought together an
unusually capable and experienced group of Americans. The range
of views represented was broad, but there was near unanimity that our
(overnment must do a better job of anticipating the future if we are
to be adequately prepared for our third century.
The Committee was gratified by the interest of the Vice President of
the United States. Nelson A. Rockefeller. Vice President Rockefeller
appeared at the first meeting of this Committee to reaffirm his sup-
port for planning and to state his conviction that the United States
must turn from crisis management to future-oriented consideration of
policies or risk being swamped by the forces of change.
We are a nation founded by people convinced that the future could
be better than the past. We can still act on that conviction. To do so,
however, requires a recognition that the complexity of American life
requires us to look at the implications for the future of the steps we take
to fight the problems of today. It also requires that we anticipate the
problems and opportunities of tomorrow and act to minimize the for-
mer and maximize the latter. This is a tall order. It is our hope that this
symposium will help chart the path.



Co-I.N i'I(E ( N ( r( iVEISiLN (I GV ( )Iit'ERATI)NS.
IflJh '/hflito I).(C.
The sVypositiin met, purs'lait to notice. at 10:20 a.,m. ill 0302. Ile
1)irksent > enate Office Building. Iton. JolIn (ileun (ad hoc cli:nrlinall)

('hairnan Ge. mlie ieetinr will be in order.
It is a ireat honor today to convene this symposillilu entitled.
"Ot)ur Th'lird ( enttirv: D direction's I erlli into t lie fuii ne IS Il
inexact, scieiWe. butt one Ithat we in (4 oVVerinwit atid the citizPi-, we
>e I' I i cI'ea SI 1 yA realize ( I t I I )nIO b 1 i1)o re (I.
This inoininrs participants., the Vice President of the United
States ald a foriner Vice President. Hubert I [mphrev, are particu-
larly well suited to launch discussions on how to develop and evalli-
ate options fia tti" ,.i or land. I want to take t!i is ol)l r unit. to tlhailk
them very much for accepting the committee s invitation to testify.
Tleir prese('e ald )articipation reflects the fact that where our
country is headed. 0 or 10 or even 50 years down the road is truly
a hipartist oneru and onoe that transcends the urive and take be-
tween thle executive ad legislative branlche- s. It will in(!,,et 1 iMONx-
ctsal)le if. trom our inaction to(lay,.t ie next (werat ion a(.cs a 1a11t loll .1
crisis that (ould have l)een averted by exploriing the options availalt.
to I Is now ill 1976.
What if the 'Nation had neededd those el hlitened voices that
warned nearly two decades a.ro that energy could 1no longer' just he
take for o-ranted, that thiis building block of industrial power was
not infinite?
rlh a ,,ti n. of course, was l'reeted b aaheic silence. 'i Tl.
Ill the 1970's. as fuel priops soared and a va ilabilit tig'!htened, A ner-
iIs were rocked b v the reality 1)ehl d those predict ions and thle
resiltalut (1'Isis indermined tle public's conlfidce il Gover'nment S
al)iitv t) ea le question was properly asked. Whv can' o r
liatioial lea(hr.s anticipate a ('risis? Why iadt they moved o1 it?
And en(erov. of (ou-se, is just one of a nuiltitu(le o examl)les.
As iiidividtials, we try to chart 011' lives, seeking out the o)tion1s
lyin-" ltead. keeping solne control over oul. tiestin y. Siii ilar1v.
lisiness ald labor actively sti dv the ftlt ire in seltintr their ,,aols.

But the biggest business of all, the U.S. Government, too often
drifts like a rudderless vessel with at best ill-defined long-term
go0ls orobjectives in mind.
But nipping incipient problems is not our sole concern. In gov-
ermnent, as in our private lives, there are opportunities for enhanc-
ing our future that are lost if not defined and made the focal point
of some effort.
There is legitimate concern that our Nation's vast talents and
b)rainpower are not effectively utilized in solving national problems.
Too often, private studies and recommendations. generated after
years of exhaustive work and considerable expense do little but
father dust. At best, this is an erratic process which hardly guar-
antees that our best thinking in and out of Government will be
brought to bear on any particular policy issue.
A key matter to be discussed at these sessions then is the pro-
cedural process whereby the United States determines its priorities,
sets its objectives, and allocates its re-oiirces to meet its future goals.
How is the Government utilizing the enormous resources of the
private sector in reaching its long-term decisions?
Do we have the ability and the will. and can we organize, to meet
the future rather than be overwhelmed by it?
Senator Percy. we are glad to have you with us here this morning.
I know of your long interest in this area and would be glad to hear
any statement that you care to make.

Senator PRncY. Mr. Chairman, I would like to commend you on
two points: One. the concept of these conferences, and second your
putting us in a framework where we can have a discussion. Rather
than sitting up here like the Great Dictator, looking down on the
witnesses, I think this is a format that will be more conducive to
a free flow of ideas and discussions.
I have always been impressed with the fact that in almost any other
segment of American life, one would be derelict in his responsibility if
he didn't plan ahead. No business would dare not think in terms of 5
or 10 years of growth: no educational institution could exist if it
didn't think in terms of the future.
But when we associate planning and thinking ahead with govern-
ment, our reaction is, oh, that's socialistic or something. Maybe we
ought to shake up our thinking a little bit. Certainly having the
Vice President as our first witness is the best way to b1ein. because
for so many years, he has already been thinking in terms of the
I remember a telephone call I had from him two decades ago in
1958 asking me if I would serve on a commission for 6 months.
I asked. what is the purpose of it?
He replied, to think ahead to where this Nation should be by
Three years after the beginning of this Rockefeller brothers
studies project, "Decisions for a better America," we hadn't quite
finished our work. The 6 months had long since been up, but all

of 11S vei'e vey ,deellyI iiIv\lv /--lienll Ili 1, .,1 ulni ( j :ravi ID) 'Il
Iaiisl d al illIin's( ,)f 1 I"Ibm. 111 l)lb s le-s. liiis. 1 to .'- I I
to 'resident Eiseu1 v'er that we esi all h Ia ( 4lnhIViV 1 '4i r Nt-
t jonah.I ( ioals. Thlis e.iiie aaparFt olfIhis 191-)9 -4'.ak,() f 11w 1110111
"eI", I I e v1as(1 led Io t he 1tojl, l i .a ( 'lm itt)w' 411 1 ll Hi i di

collsidcl' vlere a )litial party wanitIs t) seet'o htis Nati,,I 2I'. ao II
lmw Ave shlild ,,-Yet tl'rc.
Ihe tli e I )enioats Set on ill 1).
And now that the (ommission on (' riirital ('hoices is p.ive v liven-
dowed by Vice ]'Qi'sidet R cl,f('ller. wAe lave al i Ivalltlale re ,-
sourl'e to draw l111)1l. So mallv titles I hiIs a re lon ill tli luzivIke
sector that Caii be of 2ethelp) to thle 2ovellInlent.
I think We are h ionor-ed and rvile-ed to ]have th e \i(i' 1 llu I-ldeIIt
here as our first witness. No 0e1i in A inira is Ietter i ali4d t han
him to think in tennis of the w fturT. Ie has been( doin12 it a! 1his life.
( 'hali'man (LENN. Tliat vou. Senator I'ercv.
Senator Ribicoff is chairmiani of the (iovenmln enit OIperat i ur-s (, mn-
nmittee. nlid lie and I have auid numerous conversations Over t I past
year on thlis sulje,'t. I know of' his p "lsoal and con"li ii tei'est
in this and he is the one whoo was really instruniental i stin il up
this whole concept of having the various rl)oups ill to speak, )1of 101,-
term concerns.
Senator Ribi(off. do -oil have aNthiin2von would like to s v

Senator RBIOFF. I have aI statement 1 to go into the record as
if read.
I am very pleased thlat Senator Glenn is I have the highest commendation for Senator Glenn s imagination
and dedication. As a first-term Senator. lie hns all the qualities to
onitinuIe a long serve. and I coniiend him. All of us are pleased
to have h hi diair these ad 1]to( l-eariI's.
I have always been i impressed with t!e inabilitv of vovor-nment
to think aliead. ITsuall V government cts oil facts an11d theories tIat
are already out of existence. So in 1976. we are reallY t rvin1, tt) s(olvc
problelns of 1971 instead of solvin" the problems of 19 1.
I was intrigued by PF' esideitt Ford s si2,'estio1 tlat nt l 1()t of
si itlitin, oof categorical rants for the Ibloc crnant8 slio10ld 1w loie.
T think that th eF'Prsident it iniiao(le b sie I )asc l-(1101' 1 e 154)I tw..i(-h1It
track. lt le failed to (rive the Con/ress a',nd tl te Anlcri,'k. l 'aW!hl
an evalation of what !plo(-.m, Its(lints to e'l1irt t.
Vice resident t IRoc'kefieller. 01 you ]ave I l 1 OV 1111 '1, ,tor
many. nimny ears, your atssi-lnt ,ee wh]o xv:< t1,,., IIit,: S,-
tarv of' Iealth. Education, and Wel fare du'i ti' intl' oillfe "()lf'i-
deit Nixon. l)ropo-sed his welfare reforl,-v. a1d it lad : I 1011.11 tiith.
Te lr'nsident ( 'OldiCt er aIy IIe-nlblival or )Deiocralt to 1'1V
tl, ball nufor 1. 4111d As o, 11now. I was is>olafe< Nvit 'U I(, ) l lport
wS at evu .
I See. Ip. 4.

IB3it I remember at HE W-what did we have? About 146 poverty
progranis. 146, 164-an inverse ratio of their order of importance.
And I think we came up with the idea if we eliminated all of the
overt) programs, all of them, and paid everybody under the pov-
erty level $1.000 more than they would receive under the programs
that we would save, for the national budget, some $14 billion.
And I have often wondered whether we shouldn't start over with
a zero ludgo'et and look at every program we have.
The programs that are worthwhile, let's keep. The programs that
aren't worthwhile, that aren't producing, let's get rid of them, in-
stead of fighting every year for the programs that might have
outlived their usefulness. What Senator Glenn is trying to achieve
here. I believe, is to look forward, to the future and by the process
of looking forward to the future determine which programs have
outlived their usefulness and no longer have any meaning to the
We have a. budget problem at the local. State, and the Federal
level. The question is how can we best use our limited resources?
T do not think that there is anyone more suitable to start this off
than the Vice President.
I have been reading in the newspapers that the Vice President had
certain tasks given to him by the administration-welfare reform,
domestic programs for tomorrow and the future. I have never seen
them surface. Maybe it is another study that is gathering dust in
the archives of tie White House, but I am sure that there are
things in there that could surface, or maybe somebody could "leak"
them. and we would have some constructive action that this Con-
gress could undertake.
[The prepared statement of Senator Ribicoff follows:]
The Committee is honored to have with us today Vice President Rockefeller
to inaugurte a three day symposium on the general subject of policy assess-
ment and planning in the Government. We are also honored to have with us
our distinguished colleague. Senator Iumnphrey. who has been a national
leader in an effort to determine our national priorities. These two distinguished
men have spent a lifetime in public service and have given a great deal of
thought to the questions we are considering over the next three days.
Fr the purses of these discussions. I have appointed Senator Glenn
Ad Hoc Chdiimn because of his long standing interest in how the Nation
charts its priorities and directions.
I sharosenatr Glenn's concern that for to)o long our government has
responded to problems on a stop gap, catch-as-catch-cmn basis. Too often, only
;ris generates a strong response by the Government. But national prob-
lems often simmer slowly and by the time they boil, it is far too late to
ehart a course of action to remedy the problem without tremendous economic
and social costs. I am hopeful that under the able leadership of Senator
Glein. this symposium will generate proposals which will help insure that the
Federal government will chart its future course with a clearer awareness of
the lon.- term implications of its policies. I am not committed to any par-
tic lar legislation at this point. but I believe the problem is one which must be
dealt with adequately if our Government is to continue to be a positive force
in our Nation's future.
Thank you. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GLE NN. Thank you. Senator Ribicoff.

Senator JANvITs. I 11a. ('hallnlan. I wo ll Ilike to say a word. if
I mav.
Chairman GLENN. S011(r '",avits
Senator JAVITS. Mlr. (,INir-1an I will iot detail the Vice I (i-
(leint from his talk with uis vv ]()lLmr. I did wallat to lite, tlv, srlifi-
VaIIIe of !is willinirness t() ap adiitd (lisl-5s this today.
It is Illost unu11lsual. It is a ]1ltlmnark of Ilis own eltrlise. whli,.}
has been one of our great prides in New York where he served for
so many years. I hope it is a irecedont whi will be fellow( i.
PresidIents often worry al)ot what to grive (ther Vie
to do. I can't think of a l)(tter" tljiii:r to (to llan to slub)stitlt(---th(,
I .S. sul)stitute for interl)olatiolls ill tie 1a l ianIlentary system. -, wllic
is represented l)v this kiiid of a dialo.
I think the Iresideint shouldIla%(a e a feelinr. and I certiviIi (o.
th t lie 1is )artii)atfli11 ill a liil-)torv)n ki )"'(,(ieIcl( l .i lwic' \
won't hold him to. but which I think 1 will open the door to a ver-y
much more enlightened dialog between tile executive and IerjslatiVe
And second, I think he is an unnsnal witness not only for all of
the reasons Senators Percy, Ribi(off, and Glenn have med ntionel.
but also because our former Governor and our present Vice 1)resi-
(lent has a mind equal to the size of our country in the world. ie
wants to know what do you do with our r'esources, and that is wh1at
the world wants to know. Anid in addition, he is not iitiniiolateot
by our $1,300 billion gross national product. Again, how are we
going to use it? Is it going to 1)e moral as well as practical, or is it
just going to be practical?
Finally, Mr. Chairman. Senator 1umphrey and I, joined by othe
Senators, to wit, Seiators Ea.leton. Bayh, M1cGovern. MeGee. a 1
N'elson, have tried our hand at a definitive bill for indicative plan-
nincg, called the Balanced Growth and co'n(om"Tic laininiic t of
While I thorouighlv aYree with Senator Glenn that we should
not be considering in this way anyv specific bill, it is a fact that here
is a practical diagiran of what iii!yit be donie ini a planming effort.
and I think that it meets our chairman's own statement, which I
like very much, Senator Glenn.
A key matter to be discussed in these sessions, as he says in Ihs
opening ( statement. is the l)rocedu'al press whereby the UT!nitel
State determines its I)riorities, sets ob)jectives, and allocates its re-
sources to meet future ,'oals.
We have missed out on this very Ibasic idea. both with Preideiit
Lisenhower's prolose(l Coimnissio'l on N atjolal Goals. wli :oh iiii-
happily for all of us with tle energy crisis, never !ot avwel,'e,
and with Bill Palev's ('o miiiission onl Iaw Materials necesit ies t!hat
came up in the mid-1950s.
As has been said. those who do) not profit from expeotienile will
live to repeat the mistakes which experience represents.
So I am very v rtatefi ito t he Vice President. I take trreat i)airo ch ia 1
pride in the at that he i ours from- \,w York. and I believe that.

as Senator Humphrey so properly said in introducing the bill with
me, this is perhaps the most important single thing that we can be
doing in this country.
We have got to know, like the Army does, where we want to go
first. What are our goals. Then, they will decide how to get there.
They have got to know where you want to go, and this is what this
is all a)out for government.
Thank you. Senator.
Cliairnman GlE--. Thank you.
Senator Brock?
Senator BROCK. I do not have an opening statement. Thank you.
Chairman GLENN. MNr. Vice President, this is an unusual meeting
of the committee in many respects. Particularly by the fact that
you have agreed to be here with us, not to appear just as a witness
in the usual committee function. but to sit more in a roundtable-
type atmosphere, and quite frankly, bat some ideas around.
I know from a number of conversations with you of your interest
in this. and as Senator Percy has already alluded to, the Commission
on Critical Choices that you have been so instrumental in forming.
We are very' lad and honored to have you here with us this morn-
lug. and w handle on where we are going in the future, the points of directions.
Out of your experience and expertise in this area, we welcome
any statement you might make. However, before we get into a gen-
eral discussion, I might add one thing. We will probably have
people in and out here. We are on another vote right now, as you
are aware. This is our problem with a symposium or committee meet-
ing such as this, so we may have to be running in and out to vote
for a little while.
But we welcome any statement you might care to make before
we just share some views.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Mir. Chairman, distinguished mem-
bers of the committee, you all have given a very succinct and clear
conceptual outline of the subject matter. Perhaps you would let me
just say a few words formally, and then maybe I will interpolate
as I go along.
First. Let me express my deep admiration for the Senate Com-
mittee on Government Operations, for your chairman, Senator Ribi-
coff and for the ad hoc chairman of this meeting, Senator Glenn,
who, as Senator Ribicoff said has given the leadership in focusing
the attention on this particular session, and for all of the distin-
guished members of the Senate committee.
In scheduling this public forum on the subject, "Our Third Cen-
tury: Directions." the committee has exhibited one of the qualities
most vital to effective national leadership, vision-a concern with
long-range development policies to meet long-range challenges and
opportunities before this country.
I am honored to have been invited to participate, and this is a
very happy moment for me.

The study of the futtire. t le gatlerini of kiiolvedgeable. creative.
conceptual thinkers, the disciplilled analysis and projection of pres-
ent trends, the understanding of their impact on the future of our
(country and on the world, the search for far-reaelhing solutions,
have been an article of faith in my own approach to plublic issues
oVer 30 years.
In this period of raIpid. re\-olltilary clane afnd stron(-willed
indelpendence. th is long-ra ige. i tegIrated a approach becomes allI tile
111Oe I l'erati\e.
If we (1o not understand a l shlape fclal1' e to serve 0111'r Iatit)1,8l
interests and the well-bei ii of waiikiiid. cil iiii (, n .very well over-
whelm us in the form of ulncontrolled1 cIMos. It was th is a} I-o'oacl1
ald these concerns t iat led me to ,rgall Ze t lle l ] W c l+feller' 1rot1 e r-
st(ies] i 1.,. tliat setator lPeVcV 1ia-; Blentioned., oi lI ro>pectI
or Anerica, and tlen ini 197,. theC ( o mission on (+t ical C1oiC(,s
for America.
tHowever, I have been el .age(1 in tli1 iiest ion of studies over a
loiir period of 3(1)-o years for fi e l ('Pr'-i Ul is. I tavt le( l e I i l -
miissions. and while I was ( Iovernor of the State of New York I s(4
Ip over SO task forces to study specific individual subjects of majolr
importance to the State. So I believe very strouiilv in this system of
ringingr together these creative minds. knowledgeablee people. dif-
ferent points of view to come up with fresh approaches to problems
that we face but which anticipate trends in the future.
We were Ioiiored. ii connection with the omissionn on Critical
(oices- we were honored to have servia,,1 o that as ex officio mei
iers of the Commission the leadership of the Senate. Senator ?Iike
Mansfield and Senator Hoih Scott: the leadership of the I louse.
Relresentative Tip O'Neill and John Ihodes and President Ford,
while he was minority leader of the House. anld then 'as Vice 1 resi-
dent. he also served as a m-ember of the Comnission on Critical1
Now. seeing we have mentioned that. I would like to, because it is
illustrative of the approach that to me is important in meeting all
of these problems, both the interdependence andl the acceleratilir
rate of change. to list the six panels which we set up. There were
30- or maybe 40-some mnemlbers of that Commission, evenly divided
Democrat-Republican and from all walks of life in this country.
professional businesss, labor, consumers, citizens, scientists, et cetera.
So we cet a balance.
So we set up these panels, and the reason I want to read them
is because it showed the concept we were trying to develop of the
interrelationshiip of issues.
The first panel was "Energy, Ecology. Economics. and World Sti-
bility" to try and iget these things in their proper perspective.
TFie second was "Food, Health, World Population. anid Quiality
of Life."
The third was "Raw Materials, Industrial Developnent, Capital
Formation. Employment, and World Trade"-sl ightly ambitious.
The fourth was "Open Societies and Government in a World of
Centrally Managed Economies," and this, I have to think, is one of
the most serious and difficult problems we, as a free society, have to

face. How do we deal-and the original Soviet grain deal 2 years
agq was a perfect example that we hadn't yet learned how to cope
with centrally managed economies in an open society.
And the last was, "The Quality of Life of Individuals and Com-
I mention these simply to give both the range and the concern for
the interrelationship of these subjects.
As Senator Glenn has wisely pointed out in his letter announcing
this meeting, it is important that the serious analysis of our problem
is being carried out by bodies such as the Commission on Critical
Choices and the work of so many other institutes, universities, and
other privately conducted study groups must not be left to gather
They should become a part of the total body of knowledge, wis-
dom, and thinking available to those policymakers. such as the mem-
bers of this committee, who will help chart our national directions
for the future.
We need farsighted vision, creative imagination, and the capacity
for conceptual thought in approaching the challenges and oppor-
tunities of the third century, and I stress conceptual thought, be-
cause it is really through that kind of thinking that the interrela-
tion of these subjects can be brought together and that you get the
dynamics of the situation rather than just a static situation, or, what
I think is one of the problems that we face as a society. We know
so much and we have so many specialists that each specialist has
got his own clear-thinking answers, but he has got a real problem
trying to relate those to the thinking and work of others, and it is
really an inconvenience when he has to take them into consideration
because that impinges on the clarity of his own thought, but life
isn't that way.
Our strength and vitality during the past 200 years have been
built upon the Founding Fathers concept that individual freedom
and economic freedom were inseparable. Those people who have
abandoned this concept have lost their freedom in the quest for se-
curity. This we see increasingly around the world.
America is in a unique position today because of our human and
national resources to lead the world in achieving economic growth
and rising standards of living for all.
With the creative genius of science and technology, the productive
power of our free people and the American enterprise, system, we
can restore and protect our environment while developing the sources
of energy, the raw materials, and the food necessary to achieve a
better standard of living for an expanded world population, and I
have to say that I am very optimistic about the future and our ca-
pacity, if we but have the wisdom and the intelligence and the vision
to grasp those opportunities and to act on the basis that will make
possible these developments.
We can build our economic strength, essential for meeting our
needs, as a people at home and our responsibilities in the world.
We face tough, towering challenges, but the opportunities were
never greater, if we have, as I just said, the wisdom and the world
to grasp them. And in doing so, it would give us a sense of direction

a d( plrp)ose as a nat ion tll 1osteliill (,lF01.IIIt.v ,III( a1 (' tl4 mI1P ; I i
II 1 relevi' to our lives as IIIivid al "1 opt iII i i t 1 I,,ll
t Ie future, Alld my opt imist is street lge!iel today ktv iii :,- tit:t o i,
of t he most i niport'a,11t (icou nlittees of1 ttue ,,reatest elil eriv\ r oI v
in the world i-:takin(Y the loi(1* view. ili-ollJI ii1elhe:1c- 11:I1
(lev(1oil Our Nitioii5 ()lbject lye>111dami jie%' for vIc;whIi112 I Iiefl .
InIdeed. if we perceive the 1)Il)ilells t l"Il .ve face realli-,4ln t ,i ,a111
if we respond to them creatively, thiis ca ll1)(, a )eriod pe 1' )fm !',,-
dented opportunity to hell) share the ftuvrei,,ot only f,r o1r OWI
Nation, but for all mankind.
So. lgain I sav I -am delighted. 7\Ir. (lhaiz'-ian. to b, Lr,. :111 I
appreciate greatly this opport~lnity a11 wOLIo( I e ely 181 py 0)
comment on the questions which o I ave p)ut On Vl 1', a1IlOF
i)weed in any manner that you would so 1 0 dic-te.
Cham an :N-A. Mr. Vice reside t thank you v r-y,.- very mi ,'l,.
I put on this agenda for discussion these three very &relleIU..
and they are obviously very general.
Vice president ROCiE'EM;LLER. Yes. !ut thev are very"01.
Chairman G:xx-. l,(1e do encompaiss I tlink. tle whole e l-
trumr of what we are talking about. and I will welcome any (onhuIwemlt -
you might have on any of those three areis.
For those. in the room who do not have a copy of this. I will read
the three of them first.
(1) What role should Government play in the setting" of loiiL:-termn
goals and the development of strategies for aclievingr those ,.0a5 il
a free, democratic society?
(2) What is Government presently doing in this reo'ar, and i i
in any way deficient?
(3) If it is deficient, what can be done to ill)rove tlie eloff rt. e.itier
through the reform of existing institutions or the ldevelopiieiit of
new institutions?
I think many of us feel we have a great deal of brainpower inl
this country west of the Potomac and Hudson River's. If we can
somehow mobilize this, not only to approach the prol)leins we haYVe.
but more importantly to assure that we take advaitae ovf the oli-
tunities that we have in the count'v. we soitiehiow wilI ha <1,lne a
service to this committee.
Mr. Vice President, what role do you t thin k tle Goverw e -Il ,1 ,1oid
play ?
Should they be the overall setters of goals? Should we 1e :i ... ,.
our present capabilities and trying to line up wh at our f ii new will
l)e .5. 10, or 15 years dowii the road in edlt'a1ion t :01p ,, in.
energy or any one of a dozen different fields'? Or should we let our
free system just drift into the future as we seen to be (lowil, I,,.)v
Vice IPresident tRocluu tmLLE. Well. irst to analyze, if I '.F1) "tv
to. the elements that gTo into the making of a decision re,,rdiii til
first question. what role should Government play.
Conceptually, and increasingly, it seems to me in tli Nation,
Government lhas to create a franiework witliii ,Nwlicl ,nr vI en can
operate, whether it is individuals or whether it is t i e -wAIerica ii
enterprise system. Whether it is our relations with other 1,wtri e,
or whether it is in t!e field of education, social ativit e. ,'t e a.

611)~> 74

The Federal Government has got to create a framework and, in
my opinion incentives, to achieve the objectives which we want to
achieve as a nation, the penalties or restrictions to prevent us from
doing things we shouldn't do that are in the best interests of all.
But then. as one analyzes the Government, you have got the execu-
tive and the legislative branch. One of the problems that has to be
tackled here is, how do we get the executive and the legislative
branch working more effectively and closely together so that we can
have an intelligent existing policy? We happen to be in a period
that is a very difficult period, because of our traumatic experiences
overseas in the whole Vietnam situation, then the traumatic experi-
ence domestically with the Watergate situation and the aftermath
of that with a President that was not elected but appointed under the
25th amendiient, a Congress which has got to be concerned about
the public's concern as to what has happened, and at the moment.
we probably have a very unusual and difficult situation in terms of
the executive and legislative working together.
In fact, particularly in the international field, we are getting some
disastrous results, because they are not working together.
So I view whatever is done has got to somehow bring together
the long-ranoe thinking, the analysis of the problems. The executive
and the legislative, I would hope for much closer cooperation so that
we have developed certain common-Senator Percy called them
toals-I worry a little bit about goals in the sense that they sound
a bit static and that really we are living in a period of accelerating
claiice and objectives, direction, motion.
So I put those two.
However, the executive and the legislative, neither can function
intelligently or effectively without public support.
So intimately involved in this has got to be a sharing of informa-
tion with the public so that the public understands what the issues
are. what the problems are, what the alternatives are and that they
will support intelligent action and consistent action.
Chairman GIExxN. I agree with you we have to work together in
the executive and legislative areas, of course. It seems to me the
only area. we are really getting together on now is consideration of
the budget. It seems to me that that is a little late in the game to
g,'et the specifics.
Can the domestic council adequately handle the task? Do we need
a different functioning group? Are the planning functions within
the departments adequate for doing this in their budgetary process,
which is what we seem to depend on now?
What is a. better interface-to use an overworked word-between
the executive and legislative branches in approaching this problem
before we ever get to the budget?
It seems to me that that is the only place where we really come
to grips with it on a common ground.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. I was going to come to that under
No. 3. which if it is deficient, what can be done to improve it.
Chairman GLEN-N-. I think we are getting ahead of ourselves.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. So what I would like to do is do

.1 little more anal Nsis ii rel ati on to ( ,Ilotoi Irst (i lest,,l)1. 1,'aLc I
think that behave to 111(1 i IIde maIny ot er elemnlts he f le we (et o
inttelligent planniniig4.
In other words. I -o ]ot tlink that tite exe'clitive alolle c ,11 it) it.
( (o not think the lecNislative- aloiie. a ii o (t0,not t!iil k that t Ie
two of themu together alolle Call do it. Yoll a"e rot to have tle 1,''1,1ic
lit, tllen \o1 lave to o to the eleieilts tilat lliake ill) O society.
tile Ilblic. "lllsiness. labor. professionals. scientist>., lo(,al ,,ove1il-
letits. State and local. a id t he int('iatio al. 1becaIaSe today as O I s(
it. 110 problems c'a be dealt with in isolatioti. .eii if 3o Ni tak(e all
facets of a, problem and its interrelatoii witin th (ciliitr. Y ten
yon have got the international situation.
The reason we have inflation and recession and witnt)'l,-ivitit
today, or two of the )i"i .....least ns. both on l .Iiateo I nit51e of
ori" cl omitry. one the O1E( action and tie otlIir. i ow 1) .la-
tios 1. isii standards of iNinc in other paits of the world and crop
faillures outside of the Inited States.
Those two areas, both were responsible for pushing our price stIvic-
ti0e up.
Til Federal deficit also contributes to it. bit I think that tile
inajor price increase and then inflation and then recession and twen
unemploywnent came from forces outside of out own country.
Fherefore. we cannot consider any of our Iproblems without think-
in,_, of them in terms of the rest of the world.
Now this makes planning pretty complicated because of this iter-
relation. and how do you find a place where all of these Can e
brought together and balanced in wavs-but I think it has to be done.
Integrated long-range planning and conceptual thinkin(r. in other
words. one has to have enough of an open mind so that because we
have done something this way all of our lives or lecaulse this Croul,
does it or because they have got this sort of custom here. does not
miean that we have got to keep that. Maybe that is going to inhibit
us. or prevent us, from really doing what we ought to (1o. And that
is why you need public support, because we have got to be flexible
and be able to change.
I can give you an illustration. I was diseus-ing with a rroup ti
whole problem of transportation. a subject that I was very a'tivelv
involved in in the State and when 1 1, m-itted that I would (o evervthing possible to support tlh'enterprise
system in transportation. We cut taxes in half ami! we seft upI a
coIlN u1ter car 'onstritioi tn fiuil. et cetera, a iud I emdled up 1 )years
later havingrtaken over all of tle railroads a& d all of the chli!iltt,
trais and tho buses and the sulbways and ever-'ytii -er., we 1: te i
in a G(l IV'l',i 1101iit Corpo'atiOlU.
So I was tallkinc down here, with a &rouil) aboit ,t e fet t III
really we needed to rethink the whole tu'ansl o artation lle1i0io..A\
new modes of transportation come in. they compete wit Ii tlh' olI
modes, but the old modes have reguilatoiry bodies which arpe dedi-
cated to tlem. So now we have reri latorv -bodies an lcIongresional
committees for each mode. and they are defensive of that Ilode andt

they are trying to protect it and preserve it. So they subsidize
some, they tax others. I suggested, well, why didn't they try-
because we made studies in New York on this and found that if
there was a national policy on transportation and if there was an
intelligent integration in the use of transportation that we might
save the American people, the taxpayers, the public, between $5
and $8 billion.
So I suggest we have a national program and send it up to
But they said you couldn't do that. because Congress is not pre-
pared to deal with a national program because the committee struc-
ture does not permit it.
Now, this is quite interesting, this whole question. So the Con-
gress has got to find a way of being able to deal with problems that
cut across-just exactly as the Executive has got to-cut across all
lines. And we, in a sense, have built a structure that has served us
well but which now inhibits the kind of thinking that you are talk-
ing about, because we cannot think that way because we are com-
partmentalized in our thinking.
This is true in private life too, certain businesses, certain labor
unions, certain educational institutions.
For instance, one of the things that surprised me very much
when we were trying to organize this Commission on Critical Choices
was how little the colleges are involved today in the very thing
that you are interested in. And yet they have got the best-not the
best, but they have got part of the best brains in the country and
they have got a major section of them, and yet, you don't get in
college from your peers credit for making predictions about the
future. You really get credit if you do a new analysis of some
obscure item in history which has never been treated before as
carefully as you might treat it. This is exciting and you are recog-
nized and rewarded, but it is not helping the country solve its
So that unfortunately, to be very frank, unfortunately-and, I
think, because of Vietnam the colleges sort of got so that they didn't
want to work with the Government, they did not want to be identi-
fied with the Government.
I only mention these things because we somehow--everybody has
something to contribute. Certainly science and technology has got to
be, and I have to feel that your background in that field is one of
the major things that leads you to propose what you are doing,
because that is one of the fields that has always been open to new
ideas. They do not exist them, they are excited about them-break-
throughs. Whereas others have vested interests in trying to, for one
reason or another, protect.
So I visualize-and when you say, what is the Government's role,
I visualize, it has got to be executive and legislative, it has got to
involve all of the elements of our society, it has got to be national
and international, and it has got to be both Federal and then involve
thinking, at least, and understanding of State and local problems.
Now, I know this makes it very complex, but this is a complex
society, and if we are going to be conscious about the future, we
have got to be intelligently conscious.

W e cole to tihe lwxt qelstio i, w!:at is ( i ()\WF1I jIl]lt l irelitIv
doi ,g in this re(yard aIni is it in aNv way vleirie llt,
Well, the answer to the secoll(1 part is. it eit ailliv is (lefiellt.
You have asked m to (Tonle. so I fhel that, I i (b etotallyv frank.
I thlink 1m111 too lii.b otti in the exutlive l h, cii and in tl
le,islbtive branch, ve a i riact ive. Vae arect Ive I1) eits, to our
constituents, to our press-(I1s. to thli j reseiit,*o t ViSt'S.
it yolt ca nnot sol re-i I t Say sol\'-voi ellit really 1(,lie-
tivelyd (eal with the problems of A nerica 1)v dealing X.iitI" t li los
that have happened. You want to antiipate tll h('Il a ut I. 51i heh
to avoid the crisis and really to iiaxiliize a11(l sl lape ehaige so that
it benefits all.
Now that takes the lon view. tele kind offacts vou are ial kilr
;I1)out. and after the fact. it is awfully Bhard to do allvtlill(g that
(thairman Gl Na-. It1s a and-,aid.
Vrice Presidenlt RocKI"i Iv Exactlv or-it is disaster aId. like
after a flood. Wll, using that as anl example. I tiled to get a law
to keep lpeoplefrombuildiI Oil oodplai s instead of golg in
every so often and putting (dikes and all the rest of it. dams.
(Tairman GLENN\-. Insurance after thev build it.
Vice President RocJ.- E,'- ,Iust to get a law so that -oi didn't
build oi the floodplains and then we did not have the problem. But
that runs against all kinds of traditions.
So that is why you need public participation and support.
So I say that the executive and legislative are both largelv re-
nc (ive and'where the planning is going on, it is in specialized groups,
isolated. doing a lot of very exciting, longY-range planning, lut it is
,nt inter-related with tle realities of the rest of the world or tle
rest of the country or the rest of the Government. So that-I do
nlot mean to be too pessimistie, but I am lJust supporting the wis-
don of Your calling this sesSwiol commission, into tbeiL.
NoXv. this planning that is going o1 is very important. Bit tl1e
ti e of the executive 1nd the legislative is taken up with current
problems, 'witness this fiearin(r. And I an Ch"ainan of thle ( ,oiw-
mission on Water Quality and there are iv(e Senators and fi Ve
('ongresien and five other members and we lave been oina rfor
3 years a.nd we have!'ot *17 million to spend and we have mlleetiliii>
like thlis and it is very seldom tlthat any Senator or anyv ("on,-ressniaI
Can ever sit throughlo a eetilir be'a se is is colstailtiv apit he.!,"lled
out to i'espolid to these bells-I don't know how you live withli tliose
1e lis-blit this is the way, evvervbod Tv i rom etiie Presi dent ill the
executive and front all of tle c ,_,vu)ress.r eli liere. We aVe all I-1in-
niny around. and it is important. But tlhis does 1ot a siw\ver vo, I

We then come down to the third area. what could we do?
I made a note of the bill that Senator Javits put in. S. 171,) I on
bAalalced growtlau lliilc lalii,". I have hot re:l the bill.
but it is an excitilug idea.
Senator JAvu's. Mfr. Cltii' an. may I put that bill in the record.
Chairman GLENN. Certainlv.
1 See p. 40.


Without objection, the bill will appear in the record.
Vice President Roci- EFELLER. I have to say that growth and eco-
nomics are only part of the problem. You have the whole interna-
tional aspect-an(l I am sure. maybe his bill covers this. I might
use it, Senator. simply as an illustration-but there are the social
problems, there are the political problems, the international rela-
tions. the national security, there is the question of freedom. So
that the question is-and I feel. Mr. Chairman, that you are reach-
ing for something as to how do we really integrate these into a
conceptual approach for the future of this country and the world
in its broadest sense.
Now, you say reform existing institutions or develop new ones.
I will try and "say where I think-and I have thought a lot about
this-this kind of effort could be located, which is the hospitable
atmosphere for the legislative branch. the executive branch, the
public, private groups, I would come up myself with perhaps the
Smithsonian. which has legislative representatives. Judicial-mem-
bers of the Supreme Court-and executives of its Board of Regents.
It is partly publicly supported and partly privately, so that it is a
very unusual institution.
Any institution that is permanently set up by one group or another
sooner or later is bound to go off on a tangent. It is very hard for
any group not to get off.
Therefore. I think it has got to be something where the Congress
has a hand in it, the executive has a hand in it, the various ele-
ments of our society. to keep it from being captured and take one
side or another, or go off onto a narrow course.
So I just throw that out as a possibility, and the reason I have
studied it. is that I was looking for a home for the Commission on
Critical Choices when I came down here as Vice President, and that
seemed to be a very logical spot but for tax reasons and political
reasons, that were really unrelated to the subject themselves, the
studies, it was not advisable to pursue it.
I was involved in financing it with the new tax laws, which have
not been struck down by the Supreme Court-the new election laws.
It could have been misconstrued, so I dropped it.
But, something created by the Government, I think it would get
Government support, executive, legislative, private in there and you
could. in that, find a hospitable home to bring together all of these
Now it does require one other thing, and that is the kind of leader-
ship which is open to new ideas. Because if you have a wide rang-e
of different points of view. somebody has got to bring them together
and reconcile them and be willing to accept and respond to dif-
ferent ideas so that leadership is very important as well.
Chairman GLEN X. I appreciate your excellent comments on our
three areas.
I would like to ask, so we can better define this, what we are cur-
rently doing- in this regard ? Who is charged with the type of things,
type ideas, and type analysis that we are talking about here? The
Domestic Council. of course, does some of it, but it has been my im-
pression they do it more on a day-to-day basis now and do not get into
the longer term aspects of things that we are discussing here today.


Vice PresiueIit (Iu(K11vI:lAt1:I cli. I ,l'esilet :,'l l':--il.2Ii I I I.,,
ori''inal fillti oliis as aszsiglw(l by 1'resitlelit N ixiil wli,'i 'ji 1"lt fm.
t I is lomr-rall~re 1)lah IIIIIII_. blit it wv;ls Ilevel. 1,'1l(el, alldt dl' mv l
wvit1oIot, the III01V all( witlbolit t ie plople. :tII1 with II I PItV 1-,0
of the (lav to (bN. Col a~lt have pctl fle li1, ii1ilw' dayN-itii .,I
who are trying t< thliik i itelli*&eiit Iv "IIlI t thei lately\ i,,it'ai8IvtI
world lol)olv 'is of tl io( iext 10t. 20 .0 \ 'i.
('birmII- 111(ilALEN. DO Yo OU 111111k the tw (.:]"lti- I ~
aratedor 0do(1 they liavo' t* he ('owii-1( Ie II miw1( ~I(1I'I*ii U'8
lotg-term and sliort-teiim aspect of t hiii,,s
Vi-e President Yh.('J{vv +A l. YotIave ]y t
ill Order to understanil what the l)Itdictiol 4 are giWIi to) 1), tl,
future, so Von really eal't. I slip-lol A'. A l(l tlie (1e&.iiiolA t8l, '
made today will affect tHe next 10 vciia-z. the ixt- _ix Ve: ,1111!
maybe the next, 100 year's.
o you are, riyl2ht. You cannot isolate tlieii. Bit ill odtei t- ,)1 +
jntelllrent decisions today that re n1 hoitsi,_,lItel 11i4l l'I*-
productive. you have rot to undei'statld tlciV iml)1 1tItrim> tm) '1lie
future, and that is not too easy if -\-oil ai-e vtlimill2: an,,i lt tEvvil ,_
to put out fires.
Chairnuan (iEI--. We want to make ithis :I .ollveV-8,r1i al f ll'it at
and not the usual formalized committee Zrilo-t lw'e were1 we +'all i
people for so mnaiy mintites each. So I woilld like to lIoo af 11111,z;
more of a discussion 2'roup thaan a formal cou mnlittee tiearing dtr-
ere. For those who just went to vote. I will suilnarize tlhe WcO
President's remarks.
The Vice ]President felt that under otir ag'eilda that v-e plt foil h
as a creneral umIblrella for di-c1-ssiou. iirler allv fiiaework wich we
l.t 11) it is inmportaiit that the executive and legislative work to/2etl ,el.
auid this obvioltsIv ilivolveV( the b1ildreti 1: )'roce;sz. It ilivolve- })INl)liC
1lI)1)ort, all eleiwits of society. whether 11110i1. iilalaage leilt all
business. so oil-it has to inch lile'all ele IwtIts. It lhas ilteriio l oal a:11i01
national aspects. It hias lFederal. State. atid local asject,. wl.iclj a]ke'
it a very highly coml)lex sitilatioln. ()ne of Our)- major dilllh]i('+ i> inl
the congressional sriictiire which i>. .o iiiplart 1e talizt a] that xv'oi
cannot really get things done wvithott cutt i2 aci'os., so iaiv t-t l'W't I'al
n)( jirisdictionial liles.
Slider (llestion 2, we ar'e too otItein just a reactive (G(ov),run ciit.
We react, to what 11> 1)pe ratlier tlaii 1ook ii alea I
And mnderq question 3 as to whlat can possilv be (one. the Vie( l-e ivi-
denti had indicated that the Smitisoiliali had iIi iii :I P0--
ible home for sIch elrolts as tlhs il tIa itit ]ad legi*lati, eili,'1 i 1.
a l executive nelibers1ip a1n public aII lrvi wvte Hlln qvw. ()l~v W,,, I\.
it wNold be (lel)endeilt on what leadership l) wild be )t,,Itii ievre whiIl
vould be opeen to new ideas,. sil l a i lie, "I )c ii 1at we :1'v t: '., 1-in 'ahlit.
Is that a fair 1-minute suirnia rv
Vice I rcsideuit A (.I . : fll..v I t i. I w ut I i
sa: id.
Chairman GLL yx. I at not trvinlo" to put l v llll].
Mr. Vice President. '
Senator Tavits ?
SeIator ,kIs. T would like to, if I ,aN ev .ii,'a, e Nice I' Pv+-i-


Obviously, if this plan is to be indicative planning-and that word
comes out of our French experience-it has to have some kind of a
governmental imprimatur to give it the proper cachet. This is what
concerns me about the Smithsonian, which I value greatly. As a
matter of fact, I have been looking over this bill of ours while the
Vice President has been speaking to see if we could not make some
provision for retaining such an agency as a kind of organ upon
which to play whatever symphony we wish to devise. I think it is
a very good idea to have such an assembled body of brains assisting
governental priorities and planning.
I think in order to get the Government agencies and private
enterprise to really make indicative planning meaningful and not
have another report that gathers dust on the shelf, you have to
have a governmental imprimatur, and you do have a problem
between the executive and legislative.
Does the Vice President believe that however we may contrive the
machinery, ultimately we would have to produce a plan which would
be the national economic plan and which would have the ability to be
revised, but which would have some kind of a period for which we
are planningS? Now, the classic period is 5 years, as in the Socialist
countries. Our bill calls for 6 years, with a revision every 2 years.
It seems to me that that is one thing that needs to be thought about.
The other is a separate matter. Do You need a plan enacted by
Congress and signed by the President which will be the national
And second, what period of years should we try to have it cover?
I have given you two criteria, the traditional 5-year plan, and our
bill. which calls for 6 years.
The third thing is, how shall it be implemented.
Now, the Full Employment Act of 1946, which is something like
this in terms of a goal of maximum employment, simply has a
general mandate and sets up a committee, the Joint Economic Com-
mittee, to breathe life into it periodically. It is the framework upon
which the President's economic report is hung.
On the other hand, classic indicative planning, let us say accord-
ing to the French model, gives a policy direction to the Government
to implement the plan in all of its actions and charges the Executive
with the responsibility to do that, but gives him no new or different
authority. He still vetoes bills. or takes whatever his place is in the
constitutional system of the country. And it gives him a direction to
bring about by all of the means available to him, properly including
what Theodore Roosevelt called the bully pulpit of the Presidency.
The coordination by private enterprise with the goals and objec-
tives contained in the plan. which has the imprimatur of law, is an
enonrous mandate in law. but it has no funding. You do not give
it ;10 million and say spend this as you need it to make this work.
It has no authoritative direction over governmental agencies, al-
thoug-h they spend a third of the national product, or over business.
Now those are some of the choices. I wonder whether we could
have the Vice President's views.
Vice. President LOCKEFELLEn. I am very skeptical about a plan.
It is rigid and the authors of it do not want to change, and to
me, we are living in a fluid, very rapidly changing world.

I would eoine to lplatis dow-n Ille lille at'tl' YOU :,'' ~l! I IWl~
01. ar ~VTV I~ti
ot her thin gs. I alu als) N Vl 1 1 r81)4)111 U( 'aIsi atVP'
ing but have no substance i l lback oft lem 11d a tl lrtl1(i 1I,4)1 ll 2, I t 1w
public sold-for instance, tihe 'r(l ofl ll f fIOVllplo I t :,S :. iZoal
which we all have as a iroaI. We talk abolit thlat. AWNe' \,, 4) Io)
analyze it, what do we mean ?
Sofie people say, well it is 1)ercent eiuijfloyylvli t. I ;1 Iit
full employll-ent. |rot that is Nwh-t people llal.
We have to be careful. I think, that we () 1o)t iV,:'l I l .
In this Water Quality Act. it says 114) n politalt i iti,,i_,a1lle
waters by 1985. What I 1i,2" red roludll wi 1411 I tI-;tio,'t ill I lie
House 4 Years ago that it would cost ,,) b) millionn to (14 it. 1 II1
not think we could do it. but if we cold. we had tite kiu&lVeh(lre
to do it.
Therefore. I am skeptical-and I an tspeakin, Yery iot kly,
about slogans that are very appeal ngbut that we have oot iial\"zel
and we do not know how to achieve, so I would 1ot t st.ArI itself
with those.
I think concepts, that is what I would start with.
For instance,. (10 we believe, and (o we want to ledic8ate our-
selves, to the concept of no growth in this Nation and wulat atie its
implications, or to growth ?
Can we have growth and preserve our ecolo,,y and rei t i'e )ur
environment ? Do we have the energy I)o we have t tie aw
Should we have a guilt complex because we cons m, a thlird of
the raw materials in the world?
Can we, have full employment without .,rowth or. are tlose wlto
say no growth, are they just simply saving we are bored. mates,
p1ll up the ladder and to hell with the rest of then
These are some of what I call the fundamental c m'IeltS. 11tik
we should get agreement on concepts. ail then you go fron there
to specific objectives related to the execution of theicarrvinv, ott of
the concept.
One specific objective, if You believe in growth, Colli be-tIle
full employment idea or the exp-andin,ol)l1otullityv .-a(l a risiilr
standard of living-would be energy self-sufficiency. Tliat is al ie-
able in this country. That is a special" objective. I ',art, spel)din,_
"30 billion this year importing energy which we could pro(h ce lere
and we could provide employment too. Now you start to ,_,t ()Wl\V to
Then you say, all right, what's the plans. Then You come up with
specifies related to that which is part of the concept.
Senator JAVITS. Would you, Mr. Vice President. give ti, 'Ill-
primatur of congressional and Presidential decision. 1ossi 1)V
joint resolution, to the concepts? Would you pass a resoluti iin :1ving
that these are our concepts of national policy-we will strive to
implement them?
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Where they could be agreed to. That
would be ideal. And the Government could be a major part ip, t so
that it becomes-it gives us a national sense of purpose awd direi'-
tion. I feel very strongly about that, that we now do not liave that.
We did more before, we do not have it. and therefore. v) il trpeople
in particular, feel no sense of meaning in their lives.


But if there is a clear, national purpose-and I don't think that
can be a selfish purpose alone, or it will not give value. It has got
to be a purpose that is bigger than ourselves, and I think our whole
Juleo-Christian heritage gives us a universality of thinking in that
we believe in the brotherhood of man under the Fatherhood of God.
All right; that is a universal concept.
I happen to believe that there are possibilities, and to me it is
very exciting, to achieve rising standards of living for people
throughout the world. that we have the energy potentials, that we
have the raw materials to do it. that we have the food production
capacity, with science and technology being in the front of all of
this. to develop new capacities as we grow, so we do not have to
worry about population growth. because as the standard of living
goes uip. population rates go down. And that we can sustain in this
world 10. 15. 20 billion people, and without despoiling our environ-
So these are really questions-am I right or am I wrong? Those
who s.iv they're wrong say it is wrong, that we are coming to a no
growth'era. What is the significance of no growth.
Now. I do not, think anybody is going to write any plan outside
that is going to be imposed on either the executive or the legislative,
but they can give them information and they can come up with
ideas. and then together. these things develop.
They have to be on soundly based knowledge.
Senator JAVITS. There is a lot of feeling that we do not have the
nececsarv tools.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. You are right.
Senator ,AVITS. We do not have the necessary information bank,
or information gathering, et cetera. Would that be a concept, or
would that be a plan?
Vice President ROCKEFELLrE. To get the tools?
Senator JAVlTS. To enhance and improve the necessary informa-
tion. to offer concepts.
Vice President ROCKEFELLErz. This gets to another question that I
am very interested in. I do not think that we as a nation really
want to do what Senator Glenn is talking about here. I do not think
that we can turn this over to a group of experts and have them
come up with some answers and hand them to us. We have to do a
lot of the work ourselves.
I think vou have to involve the best brains and the most ex-
perienced brains in the country in this effort and it has to be an
interreaction. Experts can compare materials, facts and so forth,
but I think that it takes experience and the interrelation of con-
(gressional experience and the legislative, Governors, mayors, plus
scientists. businessmen, labor leaders, et cetera, with experience who
are 1)road gaged people to sit down and do this reconciling.
T (o not think it is o'oin to be done by technicians.
Senator Jxvrrs. I thoroughly agree.
The bill which we have offered carries that out. We really throw
the debate into the public forum very actively by tying in the States
and the Governors and the public itself. The only difference, as I
see it, is that what you call "concepts," we call "goals," which is

really defining the saine question. tllat is, how I )road are vololig
to make what. you adopt. I think the COlcept idea is entirely sound
because it is broad.
Vice President RIZ0KEFHJ:.ER. It is a framework in which roals
alld objectives can lbe accomplished and interrelated.
Senator JAVITS. It would be simpler, too.
Vice PresidentT wIRKEvvFLuT. Well. it is a franimewolk witlli n
which goals or objectives can be en Senator JAvITS. It would le simple. too.
Vice President 'i 1) l1iise one goal !it ] lave that goal. in its 1)l11'5it. Wafl) 811 d distort
tii e rest of the society. And therefore. in llie long" 111. it wo t Ibe
achieved. So it has crot to be looked into tlie fluture to see wlat its
potentials are.
Senator JAVITS. Just one last point. I do not want to take u! too)
1m11ch time. )o vou feel that the resolirce avalalbilitv. or tlie alilitv
to create more resources. is a critical concept ? In other words. julSt
:s you were saying a minute a~o, tle trade off of h vi n- iiro'e ne-
so1,res availle is that -on can 10do nre. Therefore. isn t it a
proper subject for a concept to decide wlhtlhr or not to dedicate
ourselves as a nation to produce 50 percent more Btu's thlan we lhave
now within a period of X years. and whether to adopt the concept
of growth. because it is not only growth for us but it is (rowthl
around the world.
Vice President R'OCKELT.ER. E.xactl, lbut if von take Senator
Cranston's State. he has got a proposition-Vou haven't. but I mean
there is a proposition on the ballot to bar nuclear power reactors.
Now. I only mention this because to pursue the goal or the oblec-
tive vol are talkin," about without public support. voi m ay not be
able to pursue it. because maybe the public is (oin,_, to say-I (1o
not know how this vote will come out. but if California should{
vote in favor of that limitation, it will ave an influence on otwr
States. If that happens, then it will thwart the oljective which
you talk about.
Now. the question is. is it rig'hit to do thiis. and is it -wrvo a l
tlere is where we need more knowledge. we need more oinfo'atiol.
and the public needs it and they need it.
Now one of the things which grew oult of a fleeting just like tl is
which was the first tin,. I guess. accordimn that a tVice President ha( i ever testified in tlie ('onrress. wa-s oi tlie,
subject of the science advisers. and I was support in itNvery
orouslv and so was he and1 so was the Ioluse cu('ot-ittee. A d f gIis
now it is going through.
1lit in or.lder not to waste ti he. the Presid(ent a 1t,tori zeil n ie to
bring to,!eth er leadincr scientists on various couimn itteePs. Andlt tiv
a \e ,onie li with tremendously exciting ideas. TFhey are uleli lite I
to sit. dowVn 1 mother and talk about the 1ireakt!Irou irls that are near
in scicnc a i (1tie relation of science to ecoiioinics.
But you have to have sonic agreement Oi concepts, or some of these
thiilis are Loin' to run into head-on collisions.
Senator M r:ucv. Ii. Vice JPresilent. .-iii }iave sp it a "ry',at de 'l: l
of vyoulr li IY tltlin/ albou t llan+ii ,- in many arel:il o>l ll11N(lent.
Our (Iovcl'ilnlt i o rzaniz(l 51so diltleritlye "fIr m iillei lt ollelis.


Vice President ROCKEFELLER. That is right.
Seniato*r lPizcy. In our foreign policy structure, for instance, we
have a unit in the State Department thinking ahead, the National
Security Council on defense, and departments and agencies in other
fields, many of which are just responding to crises.
If I gave you a few of the major areas, could you give us a
rating as to whether you think we're excellent, good, fair, or poor
as a nation in planning ahead in these areas. Then. we might go
back and figure out why we happen to be so much better in one area
than another. Maybe it is structure, organization, or planning.
For instance, foreign policy. How would you rate our ability to
think and plan ahead?
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Well, in foreign policy, we are
fortunate to have a Secretary of State who is a conceptual thinker
and who does think ahead, but he has problems that in thinking
ahead and in acting', he may run into, as he has, concepts on the
part of the public at home or in the Congress which differ from
Senator PERCY. All of these ratings would be relative. That would
have to be related to, say, crime control. How well are we thinking
ahead for that as against foreign policy-not solving every problem,
but at least thinking of where the country is going.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Well. I personally think that in the
Government today. the best conceptual thinker is Secretary Kissinger.
Senator PERCY. You rate us, then as excellent, good, fair
Vice President ]ROCKEFELLER. No, because now we get into this
problem of whore his conceptual thinking and Congress' is not
moving on the same course. Therefore-well, I assume I can speak
totally y frankly, because we are interested in getting to the bottom
of this
Senator PERCY. This is just between us, off the record. [General
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. The Congress passes a bill saying
that OPEC nations shall be, because they boycotted the United
States, shall] be taken off of the most-favored nation clause list. OK.
So you take off Venezuela and Ecuador, two countries that did not
boycott us, and Nigeria, third; all exporting countries that did not
boycott us, our good friends, favorable balance of trade with us,
and we have got them on a boycott. We have taken them off the
most-favored nation list.
Well, now. one has to assume this was a mistake. But it is a very
expensive mistake, because this has a very, very adverse effect on
our relations with Latin America, and this is considered to be a
discriminatory act. The same is true of Nigeria.
Now, we may have the best long-range conceptual thinker in the
world as Secretary of State, but if his actions are therefore frustrated
by this-,
Senator PERCY. Well, let me help you in rating your-
Vice President ROCKEFELLER [continuing]. And you are having
hearings right now, our second year, on this subject of trying to get
action by Congress to take Venezuela and Ecuador off that list.


Senator P1ua'y1. ]"it :It least III \'ol1i' ('Oii'1' pt. (14 \\i 11:1 \ a 1,1 14
print ? It, is like so1eom e lmliIlinL :1 l.Iolse. If tI e:," 11av a lro,(l plI:al
blit the coltrac'tor (loe-z Iot lollow it .
Vice President IRoctKt:rr.liv. z. Bilt ,........
Senator Pi-- i co IitimilM!_ 1. I 'm i , l:'ck io Ihe 1] lal .
-\ice iPresilelnt l + 'h 1.:L.I.Er. I lili t2Ot t\ y it 'wi" l,ai 2' d
to include Congress ald t lie lxec'lttite. alli it :iiot bc i the ttIn
Executive. It does not (ho ail\ ,oo( fm thlie 1( Lx41 iA
j: Congress does not ariee. or do>es hot iite'>ttanl il. 'r if t it'
American people do not.
Senator PECY. (1'oil1< vOil 'Ite defeiise st rat e y
(Nhairman GL. I wou ld like to Iiterje(,t o le ItIi' t eIte.
I think what we are Ialkiny a bo1tt lie e. t oo. we are I U' k acl,,'t
on a day to day. what we do as a resimIt of Veezuela andI so on.
What is going to detenine for'eign "l)l'V-l01r ter i
You mentioned two things a little while a-ro tliat I think are
going to determine. whatever structure we set IIp. whether we boy-
cott Venezuela or somebody else. I think food and fuel
Vice President iRoCKETi4LEI. And raw materials.
Chairman GLENN jcontiningi]. Are ,.oing to determinee foreicrn
policy for this country whatever mechanisms we set up in our deal-
ings with other nations around the world and their interrelations.
those will be the most important factors. If we can identify some of
these long-term problems that are obvious in the world. then we start
pulling back and knowing what type foreign policy structure to set.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. I want to pick up what Senator
Glenn says, because I like it. I think we (,et to an enlightened self-
interest foreign policy, which I think it has got to be, and if you
really use the word "enlightened." then it takes into consideration
the interests of others as well as our own.
I am not sure that we do exactly that. I am not sure that groups
and, let's face it, foreign governments and domestic groups have
learned how to work our political system.
Senator PERCY. My general impression is that in this area, we
are a little better off than we are in a, lot of other area.
At least we do think ahead on raw materials. I put a bill in-
now law-to create a full-time U nder' -ecreta-v for Economic A ffla ir'
in the State Department, thus putting economics and polities si(le
1)y side in equal importance. It was structured that way because out-
ability to survive depends upon our access to raw materials. .nd
that depends upon our relationships in the third world. %o I link
we planned a little bit better there.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. But oil is a raw material, and if we
then, after planning that way, then cut off the three countries which
are not Arab countries and who are our friends and cut them oil
the most-favored nation, and then if the Arab countries ,,o bak
to a boycott and these countries are sore enmgh, next time they may
join the boycott and that is not enlightened self-interest.
Now, it seems to me that we ought to he more flexible a a nation
so that if we make a mistake we can cliaiije it like t luit. but tilis is
0 years, and they still haven't been able-tie reason I am talk injg
about it. I was talking to a fellow wlo is lip froin Veezuela last
night who is testifying up here on this subject.


Senator PERCY. Can everybody hear in the back of the room?
Mr. Vice President, these mikes are very bad. If you could really
speak right into them-
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Maybe we could take up collection.
Senator PERCY. They are not made by Bell & Howell, I will tell
you that. [General laughter.]
How would you rate us as far as defense strategy, relative to other
Again, it seems to me we are doing more thinking about it, con-
ceptualizing a 21/ war capability against 11/2.
It seems we are looking ahead on this a little bit more than on
some of our domestic problems, but how would you rate it?
Vice President RoCKEFELLER. Well, now you are getting into an
area where you have got to have some concept of what we visualize
for our role in the world, and this, at the moment, is a little bit
colored by what happened in Southeast Asia. But I do not think
you can talk defense isolated from foreign policy or isolated from
the whole intelligence field or isolated from covert actions. To me,
this is an interrelated situation.
Now we come to a question as to how do you analyze, you say
defense, defense for what? Preserving our own freedom, preserving
freedom in the world? Do we still believe in freedom in the world,
or do we just talk peace?
You know, 'it is very interesting. People talk a lot less about
freedom than they used to.
OK, now we are getting back to a concept. What is your concept
about freedom?
Senator BROCK. What is the reason for the existence of the United
States? I think the American people are wondering. It is one of the
reasons that they are frustrated. They do not sense a reason for our
national existence other than self-indulgence, which is hardly a
I think the frustration I feel is that nobody is speaking to this
particular question. I think that is the failure of the leadership on
the part of those who have been given that responsibility. I do not
know how you solve that, other than through this kind-of a forum.
Vice President RoCKEFELLER. We are a democracy, therefore, you
can impose on either the executive or the legislative or the country
a concept. It has to be that they understand it and agree to it.
Senator BROCK. Mr. Vice President, we are faced with some prob-
lems that are coming before us very quickly. A lot of people in the
country now are saying we should use food as an economic and
political weapon. That sounds pretty attractive. We are the. world's
biggest supplier of food. It gives us a great deal of leverage, until
you figure out what would happen if we did.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. The moral aspect of it--
Senator BROCK. Do we take this triage concept and say let certain
areas starve because it helps the population problem if they do not
vote with us in the United Nations? I think that would be an insane
How do we evolve a purpose?


Again, the thing that frustrates ine and Aliat Seliat"Pr l("cy is
getting at is that as we are presently si itcinred. wile we ia i, a
strong institution in the State D)epartneviit and the l resident for
the implementation of foreign policy, as it is pe('v.ed at thel ,-
ient, there is no adequate linkage bet ve the execlit i xi an't, tile
Congress, which has enormous say in foreigi1 policN 'l 't .V 11(.t,
it, should-I think it slhould- .d yet tl,-ere is nio linka.*' in tIIte
determination of objectives, broadly stated.
We engage in actions which are count er-l)rod1lctiye, nlot j ust Iatinl
America, but Greece. and Turkey. You ('1ai g on witli tl1-4 list: it
i. endless. You would liave that linikage. liol)etilly. if w. ",v'e
operating in a comilion fraine, a (oininoin sese of piii1ose.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Exactly.
Senator ]hzocK. The thin that I ai reaching fol ili tthi ',forii
is how do we reshape our institutions so as to nialie tieii capal )le of
reaching that kind of a decision? I am testifying with So1i( of 0M,
younger Members tomorrow before the Rules'Comnniittee on a reso-
lution we have been trying to get for 3 years to just study tihe colt-
inittee structure of the Senate. We have run into the problem liat
we are a smorgasbord. We cannot come to grips with the major
policy questions. We have 30 (liffIl'to (il1il111 itt(,(S. Fift,,.c'cf Xi':an'a,
we had 30 subcommittees; now we have 143. And as a 'esult. the ,e
is no place in the Congress for this kind of a discussion. We have to
have an ad hoc meeting to even discuss sonie of these issues.
Vice President ROCKEFELiLER. Well, I could not ag'ee with- you.
more, but I understand why there are more conmittees and m1vb)e
if Congress was paid an adequate salary they wouldn't have to all be
committee chairmen to get the supplemental. So at least tlis woR I(l
be found out in our leislature.
Chairman GLENN. If I might add to what Senator Brook dis-
cussed. I think Senator Mansfield had figured out one day that we
had to go to 34 committees or subcomiinittees to (lea\l with enorry le( 'i>-
lation, and it is a miracle we got anything hamniered out last year
after working through all of that.
Senator PERCY. Well. we have the military assistance bill on the
floor this week. That affects the security anddefense of tle 'ount i.
buit you have the Foreign Relations Conmiittee handlinij it Uii(lht
Armed Services.
Barry Goldwater. who has so frequently endorsed your owl posi-
tion on security and foreign policy feels we ol21t to (',0111 t!iehie
two committees, Foreign Relations and Armed Services. I ut iict! her
we do that or not, I am proposing we have joint leii-ii ,s Ol our
defense strategy on the triad concept. You ('annot deal with, it in
the compartmental way we are today. We have ot to liiid a better
way to operate here.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. This goes, for intellii-enee. too.
I can give you an interesting illustration just from Vsterday.
that I am very concerned al)out the fact that revenl e sia rill, r.:s
Senator Ribicoff mentioned, hasn't been renewe(, anl Stats and
local governments are starting to make u) t](,i 1il(rets, s. and tlhey
can't put revenue sharing in the goveriienIt and it tfhey a v ,t

got it in the budget, it is $6 billion, it means, increase in des,
cutting off services.
OK. I worked on the passage of this in 1972. There 'were two
commttees then. Ways and Means and Finance. Now there are seven
committees involved. This is after reorganization to: simplify the
structure of Congress.
And the date schedule. vou have hurdles to get through, you have
to get the money in before the Budget Committee now, besides-you
know. the total budget-and the allocation.
So that what we are really talking about is how you get our
structure, executive and legislative, into shape so that it can better
deal with a fast-changing interdependent world.
And I think it is very understandable why all of these things
happen, but whether we can afford the luxury any more of this
vestioTe of democracy or whether we don't have to streamline it.
I think it is a very real question. I am not sure
Senator CRASTON. I would like to ask you, if I might, a little
bit about planning, our ability to understand or predict the conse-
quenices of our decisions, and our action and the relationship of that
to the age-old question of ends and means.
In your field of experience and expertise, how accurate are the
predictions of experts?
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Well, I have always been interested
in what experts thought, but I never relied totally on them, because
they atre usually specialists and they have a certain point of view
and a certain field, and they get identified with it.
But without them, it is impossible to do anything, because they
have knowledge. So what I said a little earlier, I feel that it is very
valuable to get the experts to write a paper or express themselves,
maybe have two or three papers and then you get a group of broadly
experienced people who represent different points of view and you
discuss the experts position and you get a balanced view on that,
and from that, I think you can draw conclusions, which is safer
than just taking a straight expert position.
Senator CRA-NSTON. Herman Kahn said in an interview at the
beginning of the year, when he was trying to look ahead, that he
feels that the experts are wrong. And I think he was speaking of
his own Hudson Institute as well as more generally. He thinks they
are wrong more than half the time.
Does that coincide with your experience?
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Well. I would hesitate to make a
flat statement because I admire experts, and without them we would
be in very bad shape, and I don't want to run them down. So I
wouldn't want to-you know, I think they are essential.
I have a great admiration for Herman Kahn and I am reading the
proof of his new book that comes out in March, which is extremely
Senator CRANSTON. I am really asking about, not only the "ex-
perts" but people in executive responsibility roles and their ability
to foretell.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. If you go to that, then, I can com-
ment, because this I understand.


Senator CRANX STON. Wiat would be your comment on thiat
Vice President RO( CKFE LLER. Flios( of us who are eit hir iol i-
ticianis or adillinistrators. what(er you want to call it. I think i I
know I have made mistakes-some that were wrong jud'nitent and
some where I have taken a counrse or made a prediction a nI( ci'eum -
stances chancred which were not necessarily based on a false j dg,e1t
but the conditions changed.
So, for two reasons., either poor judgment or circumstances change.
you can be wrong. That is why I was concerned aboit Senator
Javits having a master economic plan tlhat (ets frozen because life
is-who could have predicted that the OPEC countries were oinj
to do what they did. So any prognostication without basinr plans
on that would have been wrong.
Senator CRANSTON. Onyour studies on actions and programs to
obtain short-range goals, how often have there been unfortunate
and/or unexpected side effects or undesirable long-ranre conse-
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. In minor degrees. quite often: in
major areas, less often. But on balance, I was testifying in New
York on a commission about the Iiban Development Corp. which
had some problems in selling notes. and the chief counsel was
questioning me as to why we built 35.000 units under construction,
a commitment of about $2 billion. Why didn't we have a contin-
gencv plan?
I said, what did you want us to do., sell an extra billion dollars
of bonds so we had the money and, you know, pay the interest on
it and just kept it in the bank?
I said. look, you are talking like a conservative banker. I was
elected to represent the best interests of the people and there are
a lot of people without homes or who are living in conditions that
are bad and I took some risks, and that is what I thought I was
paid for.
So I think you have to take risks, and I don't think we want to
get it so that people are afraid to take risks, because if you are
afraid to take risks, vou don't do new things. and if vou (lont do
new things, you are not going to stay abreast.
So you have got to be willing to take risks and make mistakes.
and that is the good thing about democracv. You get enough marks
against you, you get knocked out. That is why our system. I think.
is the greatest in the world.
Any one of us are expendable.
Senator BROCK. I think the thing that troubles me is that the
record of a Governor or series of experts or the (o4 ress of the
United States may draw us a little bit away from the fundamental
For 200 years we have been an insular, isolated. self-contained
people. We have not looked outside. Every time we have come out
of a war, we turn to the basic spirit of isolation and let. tihe world
go its way and we go ours. Everything is great here with our syst em.
We are all benefiting. Evervthinor is line. Let us keep it that way.
Do not worry.
The point thatyou and John Glenn were talkincx about earlier
was that our inflation in the last 4 years has coniie from food Waid

69-838 0 76 3


fuel, both of which are commodities. It is going to force us to think
about this Nation in a much broader context.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. That is right.
Senator BROCK. We are not doing that. The problem with aan
expert is that he looks at a problem in a domestic sense; he can
calculate the quantity of thorium or whatever material he is dealing
with and say we are going to be inadequate, or we are going to have
an excess, or we have to look at these long-term views, and so forth.
He is not thinking of it in terms of the political context of the world
Somehow, we as a people have to strike some kind of understand-
ing that we live in a world that is absolutely and totally interrelated.
Our highest interest must be in the broadest sense, if we are going
to talk of self-interest. You cannot deal anymore with food as a
weapon without an understanding of the moral context of that kind
of policy.
I think that is where I run out of steam in trying to deal with our
present framework. None of it, executive, legislative or educational,
perhaps more so the latter than any of the others, has come to grips
with this part of the question.
That is why I ask you, what is the reason for the existence of this
country? Do we have a purpose? Do we have any kind of objective?
If we cannot establish that, all of this seems to be unrelated and it
is fragmented, slipshod, and ad hoc.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. If we want to take your line to
launch on a program to help other nations produce food, for in-
stance, in the Mediterranean area, Africa, India, some of those areas,
the technical knowledge is now in existence to make deserts bloom
again, make the Mediterranean the breadbasket, desalination of
water, irrigation, storage, transportation, fertilizers, fungicides, all
of that, highyield seeds, with Arab money, U.S. technology-we
could set out a plan that would be tremendous if we got over run-
ning around over a lot of things at home and get all mixed up in
crises, political, and other problems.
I agree with you totally. I think that we need to have some
objectives that are bigger than ourselves that relate to mankind
as a whole. I feel that all of the possibilities are there in terms of
energy, in terms of raw material substitutes, raw material substitute
sources, if we think in those terms and if we want to do it.
I am very optimistic that we can create a current in the world
which would give meaning to the lives of people here.
Senator BROCK. There is no capacity in our current institutional
framework to act other than for a reactive policy. That is what
drives you out of your mind.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Well, there is no present structure-
I won't say there isn't the capacity. We have the capacity as a nation.
Senator BROCK. There is enormous intellectual capacity, but there
are structural impediments.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Exactly.
Senator GLENN. Pursuant to this, are we ever going to get to
where we can cope with these if we do not organize along func-
tional lines? I thought one of the better things that were proposed
in the Nixon years was the fact that we would organize under

functional lines of human resources, natural resources, defeiise, fi-
nance, and so oil, as a1y good halfway decent business would d1(o and
try to orgaize and get the job done. But we have just sort of pro-
liferated agencies and groups and departments and so oil ever slilce
our founding days without any concept of really organizilng to get
a particular job done.
It seems to me that should be the first step in the Congress. and
the testimony you are (goifl(r to give tomorrow iII the Rules ('oml-
mittee is a start. Maybe as a lirst step in the executive lbrano'hl.t he
White House functioning could be organized along tlhose fu nctional
lines, rather than reflecting more of just the existing agency relation-
ships developed over 200 years.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. No question.
Senator CRANSTON. The work that you have done in concepts and
goals and the opportunity of these hearings that John has brought
about to consider where we are and how we are doing provides a
real opportunity, a very important one, to rethink what our country
is doing.
I think we generally know what our goals are, at least as related
to our own country, perhaps not to the world. I agree with you.
We have been deemphasizing freedom, which I think is unfortunate
with dictatorships on the rise. But we talk about peace a great deal,
and certain other objectives.
We have not paid enough attention to the means to achieve tlose
goals. We have been very careless in that respect.
I think that we have not thought through adequately the lessons
of history in regard to improper means as they distort the ends.
Perhaps we are not aware of the fact that means are ends and
there are not clear distinctions between the two.
In relationship to all of that, in your view of history, how often,
if ever, have brutal violent means been justifiable or justified because
of good ends?
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. I suppose the American Revolution
is a good example where violence justified the ends.
Senator CRANSTON. On balance, do you see more instances in his-
tory where brutality and violent means have failed to achieve the
objectives or so distorted them
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. World War World War II were
Senator CRANSTON. Of course, World War I1, particularly, was
forced upon us.
Vice President RoCKLFELLEI.:R. I was not saving that we initiated
either of them. We went into them in the end with the piurpos' of
saving the world for democracy, but as you said, this country,
after it has gone in and done something, then it wants to pull
back-and yet, in a strange way, you also pointed out a very sensi-
tive thing and that is that people now feel that t here i li t a sense
of purpose.
But there canl be a tremendous sense of purpose. Iere is this
planet with an increasing population on it and here are these scien-
tists and technologists and a productive ye system which, if intelli-
gently channeled, like an irrigation system, can achieve a rising
standard of living for people throughout the world, for the benefit
of all.


Of course, now there is a question about whether a rising standard
of living is a good thing. I have to think that a lot of the people who
say that have already got the higher standard of living, so I have
a little doubt in persons who believe in that.
But to be able to assure that you have a good meal coming and
that you will be able to have reasonable health and so forth are
desirable byproducts of a rising standard of living. And the wonder
to me about the world today is what science is doing. It is abso-
lutely fantastic. I don't think that there really is a danger of a
shortage of the necessary raw material elements for production on
a scale that will give a decent standard of living for everyone.
Maybe there won't be the same raw materials, maybe we will use
substitutes, or maybe we will get them from another source. We now
find we can get-them from the bottom of the sea.
I never will forget when the Prime Minister of Trinidad came
to talk to me a couple of years ago about the fact that they had
discovered gas in Trinidad and he thought that maybe what they
would do after OPEC had done with it, was to get the bauxite from
its neighbors and they would make alumina and aluminum in Trini-
dad and then they would sell the finished product.
I said, you know, that is exciting. But I said have you looked into
what the costs are of making aluminum in the United States from
silicon sands, and from clay, as a matter of fact?
He said, I never heard of it. Well, I said, before you get into a
big investment down there, you had better find out what the com-
petitive prices are. We had unlimited sources for producing alumi-
num in the United States at a higher cost. It's rising; Government
comes in. I think the Government ought to determine, by a com-
mercial sized plant, what those costs are. I think we have to do the
same to find out what it costs to take oil out of shale through the
NC2 process. Livermore Laboratories thinks it is $7 or $8 a barrel.
If that were true, and there is five times as much oil in shale in this
country as there is in the Middle East in known reserves, we're in
clover. If it costs $24 a barrel, then forget it, for the time being.
So these are the areas where I feel that Government should be
working with private enterprise.
Now a lot of people say, well, you ought to leave this to the free
market system, but those people, in my opinion, haven't studied
American history. The railroads were not built by the free market
system, they were built because the Government gave lands to rail-
roads for building them across the United States.
American agriculture grew to its extraordinary capacity today
because of Government credit institutions, because of land grant
colleges, because of the building of roads, because of rural electrifi-
cation because of extention services. People sort of forget that.
How did we get the greatest aviation industry in the world? It
wasn't just private enterprise; this was Government contracts on
military research and development, and then they transferred it.
So that is why I happen to believe very strongly that we ought to
have-I would not want to make it the Energy Resource and De-
velopment Corporation, but Energy and Materials Resource Develop-
ment Corporation, where the Government works on these experi-
mental things with high costs and they find out-they did it with

rubber during World War ,II and t lien sold the plants and we hIad
a new industry.
Senator ( RANSTo(). Is it your view that the prevaiim virwVj1 ali1011y
so many people quite recently that we were o'ng to uI1i oit (of
energl rUll out of Inetal, run out of resources, are i ow provillg to
be invalid ?
Vice President Io(WKEmEtIA:ER. Absolutely. T(lev were totally wroii .
Senator CRANSTON.. Getting back for a itolnitlet to tle natter of
means: war is, of course, a violent affair. It seems to Me there are
legitimate questions even there about the degreee of violence.
W~e have seen civilian populations bonlbed in various wars for the
express purpose of breaking down the enieny's will. All we know
is that you kill a lot of civilians, create a lot of havoc.
Quite often it turns out that that stiffens their morale, they iiljt
even harder. Rotterdam is all exaniple, as is our own bombing of
Hanoi. It is not exactly clear what our purpose in that was, and it
is not exactly clear what the consequences were.
Vice President ROCIEFELLER. If 1 may comment on that. I was
Assistant Secretary of State when President Truman was making
the decision whether to use an atomic bomb on the Japanese, and
his analysis was, and I think it was the right decision, that we would
lose up to a million American casualties in invading Japan to take
the island, that this would result in the ability to make a peace
treaty and avoid those casualties.
Now, civilians lost their lives, but it was done with the purpose
of saving 10 times, 20 times, as many American lives. So I dont think
one can make a black and white conclusion on any subject. I share your
feeling, but I just wanted, in fairness to use that as an exaumiple.
Senator (1O\si)x. (n that specific example, the boiibnig of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the decisionmaking process and the
decision to proceed, do you have any comment or have you looked
at the recent studies made of the two books along with a lot of
other studies made on that whole matter. that seems-to add up to
the conclusion that the Japanese were seeking to negotiate a peace?
The military, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Eisenhower and.
among the others, Curtis Le May, all stated that they believed that
Japan could be defeated without invasion and without nuclear bomb-
ing. But plans for dropping the bomb went forward desl)ite that.
and possibly in part for other reasons. N\ow we learn that generall
MacArthur who was supreme commander in that area diri MI" t lie
war was not consulted about tle wisdom of the bonb strategy. Ile
was advised that it vas going to be(done.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. I hear what you say. I w-as here in
the Department, and all of the things you are now raisimi I was
totally unaware of.
I do not think General Eisenhower at that time was very active in
this situation.
Senator CR.\x-ST(o). No, he was not.
Vice PresidentR L IWIX-." Wi "v ". I heard nobody at tiat time. who
presented or put forward the thiinki ti(gthat ,vyou are iow discussing.
But on the other hand. this (oes back to this satime t i in. ti le on
who was there, tie I'resideit of tl 1t- tedI had a great
decision and this is the tough part of being il, a positotil w le yhe rx e


have to make a decision. This is at all levels. You do the best you
can. If you make the wrong one, you make the wrong one. As I
said about democracy, if you make too many wrong ones, you are
Senator BROCK. I have another committee that I must go to. I
will try to get back.
If I could just add one thought to the discussion you are
Chairman GLENN. I must go and vote, and I will be right back.
Senator BROCK. As far as I am concerned, I do not know whether
the decision was right or wrong. I can see the arguments against it.
I also know that the world needed to know in some dramatic
fashion the power of this weapon to make decisions in the future.
The greatest value of American diplomacy in the last 30 years has
been this inability to lead this world into a nonproliferation agree-
ment that would stick and hold and avoid the spread of these
weapons to those nations who are not as responsible.
Thank you very much.
Senator CRANSTON. I want to concur with everything he said.
One more point on that particular decision. It also is my impres-
sion from my recent reading and explorations I have done that
John F. Kennedy decided to proceed with the Bay of Pigs, despite
the many questions, because of the decisions that had been made-
apparently thoughtfully-by the Eisenhower administration and by
President Eisenhower specifically. President Kennedy was reluctant
to reverse that decision which was going along pretty well toward
the event.
In the same way, I have a feeling based upon what I have been
reading that Harry Truman came in never having heard of the
atomic bomb until after he became President. He received the im-
pression that Franklin Roosevelt started a great momentum toward
making immediate use of it when it was acquired and he was very
reluctant to reverse that sort of momentous decision by his prede-
I do not know how carefully he weighed all the consequences of
I would like to ask you one other question. How about deceitful,
unethical means? How often, if ever, have they been justified be-
cause of the good ends sought, as far as you understand history
and these questions?
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. You have to define what deceitful
and unethical is. In a war, I assume
Senator CRANSTON. Let us get away from war.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. [continuing]. That everything is
unethical that you're doing, if it was in peace.
Senator CRAN.STON. Let's get away from the question of war.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Yes, but as I see it, you want to
make three rough divisions. If we are talking now about reflecting
the enlightened best interests of this country, which we all agree
relates to other countries, and I add freedom as being-because I
feel strongly about it-an important element.
If our interests or freedom are threatened-let us assume that is
our objective, as well as working toward the well-being of people

in the world-there is thle diplomatic ecoioni i, cooperative effort
on the one hand. If that is iiJiSIC(ceSsful, at the other end is irililitarv
action. In between is what America is just learning al)olt, tihe
American people, but which has been a part of world relations for
a lot longer than 2,000 years. '"'T Art of W ar",ISprobablythle
most enlightened, if that is the right word, or the most deta iell
analysis of covert activities thatyou can find.
Senator CRANSTON. Whose book is that?
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Sung Soo; he is a Chinese military
expert just before the time of Christ who wrote a book which is the
basic book that Mao and Stalin both bu ilt their operations on.
And this is fascinating. le says that a good general never will
have to fight, that through devious means, he will destroy the vill
and the capacity of his enemy to resist.
Now, this goes right to your question of deceit, of immoral-all
of the actions which he describes in that book are deceitful and
immoral. I)eceitful, he described one thing where an Army is going
to invade another country and he is the general in charge and-
this is in China 2,000 years ago-so he has them light 25,000
campfires the first night. Then the next night they light 15,000
and the next night they're down to .5,000 campfires, or 10,000, the
impression being that they are going to be under observation by the
country they are invadig, and they get the imlression that the
army is deserting, so that they relax. And then when he arrives
the following day, they are unprepared and they are successful with
very little fighting.
But he goes into detail on what I would call covert actions.
Now, covert actions is part of a gray world that exists today.
And when Mr. Khruschev said after President Truman had enun-
ciated the containment theory or policy that they would abandon
aggressive expansion of communism by military action, but that they
would support wars of liberation and then they would set up the
elements in the country or support them first covertly and then
overtly support them, this is part of that gray world that we live in.
It exists in the world today, and you have to weigh whetheryou
want to go from a failure in diplomatic action to military action
or whether you want to use covert actions as an interim halfway
measure to achieve or to prevent the loss of the achievement of
U.S. long-term best interests, in the largest sense, we are talking
about the preservation of freedom.
Now, this is a very tough situtation. When I said at tlie very
beginning that I think executive and legislative have i(ot to work
together with the public. I think the pul)lic has got to understand
a great deal more about this in order to understand what the alter-
natives are and how they want to use them.
Senator CuNNNSTN. It seems to ie t hat we have had two recent
examples in history where the leaders of the land, for liirpo eS
that I am sure they rationalized totally as beingz (roon(t Und(l noble
and valid and important to the country practiced (evi'lisledss anld
deceit in covert operationsas they related to not inforing the
American people: in Vietnam, and I say that about a I )emnocratiC
President, Lvn(lon Johnson, as well as a h1el)l)lica ii I resident.


Richard Nixon. In the case of the Watergate, Richard Nixon used
deceit and covert operations to keep the American people from
knowing what his people in the Government were doing, and that
becomes the place where there has to be grave questions about the
desirability of such behavior.
I am sorry, I cannot wait for the answer. I will come back. I
have to run to vote.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. I do not believe in deceit either, but
this is not something that is unknown in this country.
Senator CRANSTON. Excuse me for running. Senator Glenn will
be right back.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. This is a perfect illustration of what
I was talking about.
[A brief recess was taken.]
Chairman GLENN. The meeting will be in order.
I apologize once again for the inconvenience that we have caused
you here with all our voting. You are familiar with our problem.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. I just kept on talking.
Chairman GLENN. I have a couple of questions that I would like
to explore in the limited time remaining. I know you have to leave
within about 10 minutes.
How successful do you feel that the Domestic Council has been,
particularly in the area of long-term planning?
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Not successful except in the one
effort which the President asked, which he wanted, which was these
hearings around the country on domestic issues which were really
interesting and Governors, mayors, businessmen, labor leaders, wel-
fare recipients, Indians, every group, appeared to testify. Then we
took questions from the floor. We had about 13,000 pages of testi-
mony and which really gave a very exciting insight into the thinking
and feeling of America today and one of the tragic things that I
felt came out of it was, whereas people used to feel that Washington
and the Federal Government was the solution to their problems,
increasingly people are feeling that Washington is the problem and
that this is just as true of a Governor or a mayor or a businessman
or a labor leader or a welfare recipient. The redtape, the bureauc-
racy, the delays, the uncertainties, and so forth. This was very
Then we prepared, based on these hearings, recommendations for
his consideration in connection with this in program development
across the board.
This was the only integrative operation which included the eco-
nomic, financial, social, et cetera, and the structure there is provided
with economic advisers, the Economic Policy Committee, the Energy
Policy Committee, Domestic Council, so that the Domestic Council
has been largely focusing on immediate problems and crises, except
for this one effort which he asked to be done, there has not been
the kind of planning and thinking that you are talking about.
Chairman GLENN. Do you think any organization, such as the
Domestic Council, can deal with the long- and short-range goals?
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. There was an interesting conversa-
tion when I went to see President Nixon on the Commission on
Critical Choices when I was still Governor when I set it up, and he
and John Ehrlichman and I had a conversation about this.


I raise this simIly because of Voltir Iqiiestioii. ,1o11 EiiiIirliiliiaI'is
feeling was that the I)oiestic ( oincil ould (10 this ;iid it ouglt
to do it and tlre was no nee( foir a pivate gUOUl) to be set lil). and
the PresidenIt said. just as we h1aye ,- )(eelI talkil lhre t(ldav. .you
cannot do this within the I)otiestic (,ouncil beca (Ise of tlle l sPetl yes
of the current problems and le said. I think this is a good idea.
I wanted to get the cooperation of the Governinent. not fillg ci "
but cooperation.
So it worked out very well, lut that was, to me. te colditrait.
There is no question that the bureaucrats wtalit to 1hol(1 oi to these
things and have a concern if some outside group works oil it. That
is why I want something that would involve the executive, 1eislative
and all of these outside groups sort of on a neutral groi11d w0ere
everybody is plugged into it. Otherwise. they are goingg to be
opposed to it.
Chairman GLENN. Such as the Smithsonian ?
Vice President ROCKEFELLEIR. To me, that is a unique Institution.
It was set up historically by a Britisher who left the funding creat-
ing this sort of quasi-private/public Institution.
Chairnl (LENN. Are there other ideas alon- flat name 1 i'( a
an alternative to the Smithsonian that you've thought about? I
think that is an excellent suggestion.
Vice President ROC( EFiILr. We studied, frankly. trying to find a
home for the Commission on Critical Choices after 1 came down
here. They are going ahead by the way. and publishing these re-
ports; we made a contract with the publisher, there will be 14
volumes that will come out from that.
Chairman GLENN. When will those be out ?
Vice President tOCE(I .EI:FI:m The first one is by Lloyd Free, Iow
Others See Us," which was a polling operation of other countries as
to their attitudes on the United States.
The second one is an Irving Crystal, edited 15 essays of Anierica"
1976, of how people see us today from different )oliits of vie\x and
different writers, and it goes into these other panels that I talked
about, energy, raw materials, and so forth.
In five or six volumes, we, did it two ways, we did it Iuct o,11, lv
and interrelated, then we did it geographically, so t here were lixe or
six findings on different continents of the world. Asia. Af'lica., Ltin
Aimerica. England. and so forth interrelat Pg the military. tplitical,
diplomiiatic, economic. social pItoblens in those a reas.
I think it will be quite intetestiig.
We could not figure out any other body that existed today that
has the kind of three-wav ties that ttle >iiithsoiiiai does fo)l r-wav,
von could include the court. The chancellor of the miitt hiuii ls tiu'
chlief justice.
Chairman GLENN. How unIch (10vo think we can learn from
other nations who have done a lot more llaniim I wat t) add
right at the outset that no one 01 t hiis ('()iiiiittee, a iid it i cv ria iil
not my intent, to h1ave us setting 1 a ,,-year coilinisav m .(lz Ar-y\ pe
})r(grali. "Fliat I Ihe tartht I 11i11l () t I 1 )111' () i :tluIl
have gone in various (Iirect.ions as far It Is lailIi1,_ atil 1- 1t1(g at
roal-setting for their nations.
Is there anythill() A we ean learn tol, hel(). or a tvtitniui& we can
learn to stay away fr()m .*

Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Well, I am doing a little free-wheel-
ing here, but I think the Japanese have developed some very inter-
esting relationships between the government, finance, labor, business,
et cetera, national .and international.
I am not deeply knowledgeable about how it works, but it has been
pretty successful. They moved very rapidly.
On the other hand, the Soviets who have certainly planning, but
at the same time, they also have had to keep central control because
of their political situation. And therefore, they are now, after 50
year of Communism, coming to the capitalist world to get their con-
sumer industries built by us, organized, staffed, and manned, train
them, and they have had to come to the capitalist world for their
food. So it has got to say something that that system--often it is
not in a military sense, in a propaganda sense, but in terms of do-
mestic needs has not been able to achieve their goals.
Chairman GLENN. Would you have any suggestions as to what
might be set up-a permanent Commission on Critical Choices or
a Commission on National Goals, as we had in the Eisenhower years,
the Council of the Future, a technological ombudsman approach to
things? How would you suggest structuring this, quite apart from the
Smithsonian, whether it was put there or not, what would be the struc-
ture and how would it interface with the Government and the private
That is about five questions in one.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. I understand what you are saying.
I do not think that it ought to be an institution that becomes rigid
and institutionalized. I think it ought to be one in which real live
leaders from labor, from business, from agriculture, from govern-
ment, et cetera participate and not left, like so many of these insti-
tutions, they have a board of directors, but the actual work, the
board does not participate and therefore it gets staffwork, which
may be excellent, but does not give the mature and integrative
judgment of the people who are running the country or phases of
the country.
So that somehow, one has to get, I think, involved, actually
intimately involved like these panel discussions in the substantive
issues themselves and that the final reports in any area could be on
a continuing basis, come out and keep on and come out additionally
as times change.
It ought to be a growing, evolving thing with the board members
changing, but I feel it very important that men and women of deep
experience in science and technology, in industry and government
and Congress and so forth, are actual participants.
Chairman GLE-N. Could there be regional commissions that are
part of the national
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. The hearings are awfully good.
Chairman GLENN-. I wonder, along those same lines, maybe re-
gional commissions that would then be a part of a national setup
of some kind.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. I had not thought about regional
commissions. I think people have got to come from all over the

But our problems. the lbig problems we are not solving ar global,
international. If we are moving along rcolstlrctiVe lines t Ie e
the regional problems would follow more easily withiii t hat frar, e
work, I would think.
But that is just a reaction.
If I could go back. now that Senator Cranston is bck, to his
que-tion I think that he is ra isinr that we as a nation have to fare
very realistically, that is this whole question of deception anid acts
that lie describes as immoral.
This is a real problem and we have to face this problem. because
the whole intelligence community is involved in acts which, under
our statutes-acts abroad which under our statutes at home would be
barred. They would be violations of our statutes, privacy, and yet
we have to be frank.
I was Chairman of that Commission looking into the CIA charged
with massive violations-and there were massive violations-but all
of the things that people were worried about that the CIA was
doing are being done in the United States by the Soviet Union, yet
for some fascinating reason-massively by the Soviet Union-there
is very little interest or concern.
Senator PERCY. Before we rece ss
Senator CRANSTON. May I comment on that?
Senator PERCY. Go ahead.
Senator CRANSTON. There certainly must be concern about the
Soviet Union doing those things in our country. and we have to
have appropriate, responsible agents of the Federal 6' %, 'nment
under appropriate congressional supervision dealing with that to the
best of our ability.
I do think, taking into acount Bill Brock's question about what
America means and what its purpose is, that we are defending not
just the population of our country and not just the geography of
our country. We are also defending the Bill of Rights, the Consltiu-
tion and certain freedoms that we seek through those means. If we
emulate dictatorship and other forms of government too much in
order to defend ourselves, we destroy what we seek to defend.
That is the dilemma we face in dealing with a violent world.
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. I agree absolutely, and when we
talk about freedom. I think that when one analyzes what was fought
for, and they were fighting for: individual freedom and economic
freedom and the economic freedom is inseparable from individual
freedom, and that is a lack of it, a control from Liondon of the
Americans that really was one of the stimuli that brought about
the Revolution. As we come into this 200th yearanniversary, we
have to reexamine that combination.
I do not think we can have this country an island of freedom
in -i world of centrally controlled social and ecomiiiiic nlations.
Senator PERCY. Mr. Vice President, I would like to ask for yollr
comment on one thing before we recess.
There has been discussion recently about simpn)lifvin g our income
tax returns and just having a stan(lard (deduction- for instance
removing contributions to charities. I happen to think that would
be very dangerous, because we would dismantle a large number of


the organizations that are really engaged in some of the most
forward thinking in this country where government is too timid.
For example, the Carnegie Foundation, started a public library
and mapped out a whole educational television network that has
now grown into public broadcasting. Also, the Rockefeller Founda-
tion has done a lot in the creation of miracle foods, miracle rice,
and the 30 years work your brother John Rockefeller has done in
population planning. Ten years ago the government would never
have touched population planning and politicians would not dare
discuss it. The foundations have been able to do it. The Brookings
Institution is a third example.
I would like to ask you about Brookings Institution and other
privately endowed institutions doing forward thinking and plan-
ning. How important do you think it is to keep and strengthen
privately endowed institutions like these before we start setting up
other governmental organizations and superstructures?
Vice President ROCKEFELLER. Your question goes to a fundamental
question of whether this country should continue to encourage what
in Biblical times was called charity, people doing for others.
I happen to think that it is a major and integral part of the whole
character of America. Saving and giving are important to individ-
uals and that the responsibility and the creativity and the initiative
with which an individual assumes that responsibility is an important
building of his or her personality and character, and I think this
is one of the things that has distinguished our country from other
countries which do not have this law and therefore have depended
on government.
So I would think myself it would be a disaster for this country
to eliminate this from every point of view.
I do understand, because I spent quite a bit of time before con-
gressional committees seeking confirmation, that there is a philoso-
phy, and perhaps a growing one, where certain Members of Con-
gress feel that only Congress should-with any surplus be taken by
Congress and with their wisdom they should be the only ones who
give. But plurality, pluralism in our society, free individuals and
their creativity, whether it is individuals or levels of government
or associations, voluntary, nonprofit corporations; this is this plural-
istic society to me is the enrichment of America.
When you get to Jean-Francois Ravel writing the book that he
did, he was a left-wing intellectual and said the only hope for the
future of the world is in the United States because the Catholic
countries-he calls them the Marxist and Catholic countries do not
have, as he puts it, the freedom and the flexibility and the creativity
to adapt to change with the speed with which change has over-
whelmed us.
This, in my opinion, is a very important part of that. Of course,
it would knock out private education, it would knock out religious
institutions, it would knock out all of the private hospitals, all of
the things that communities have done.
This was, if you go back to de Toqueville, this was one of the
extraordinary characteristics he found about America. He said, by
God, you will not believe it. You go into a community, some citizen


has an idea, (toes across the street and talks to lis li hl)or, a ld
they agree there is a prol)em anid they set ,lp a ,nnilttn .Iant ltv
do somethiiig about it. ie 1says it is totally tuielated to tle btl-
reaucracy. Ie says it is unbelievable.
I think it is our great strength.
Senator PERCY. Thank youN very much.
Chairman GLE.N. Mr. Vice 1President, we could go oil witl this
all day.
You asked one of the more prov-ocat ive quest ions all(l ilii jl (ct l1ii
into your comments awhile ago-are we goillg to lose 01r feedoIl1
in our quest for security. That is a provocative (luestioll alt m(l
be a subject of many, many more (days of discussion here. I wish we
had time to get into that and all of the other qulestions.
I know you have a very busy schedule; you have a already staved
15 minutes beyond what your staff told us was your absolute last-
ditch, deadline time. If, In the next couple f (lays olN ,to ld)ave
any free moments, we are going to be continuing this discssion-
this afternoon with a paniel-I will read the inme,,; witthoia
giving all of their pedigrees here-li. Barry Comnmoner. Richard
Barnet, Mary Bunting, Alvin loft"er, .CJackson Grason_. Malcom
Moos and (Jlift Alexander in this afternoon's )aInel. ai dt ie oriiier
Vice tPresident, Senator Humphrey, was unable to stay with us
here because of all of the voting problems. We hope lh Will b e alle
to join one of the later panels to expand, and plerha)s comimlent on
some of the ideas you have put forward here today.
We will have Roy Ash. Nick nohnson, William Ruckelshaus.
Frank Zarb, Robert Seamans, Sol Linowitz. Walt Rostow and Alice
Rivlin on the panel tomorrow morning. Probably that will carry
over into the afternoon because of I)r. Kissinger's appearalice to-
morrow before the Government Operations committee e at 11 as is
scheduled now.
On Friday we will have Fred Berirsten, Lims Paulin. Murrav
Weidenbaum, 1. F. Skinner, John Knowles, Buckininste rFuller,
MIarcus Raskin, and I)r. Peter Goldmark.
These are soIlle really topl 1 )tcl people. as I am sure ,Ioil-)ulldagree.
If at any time on those days you do find time, we would certainly
welcome your appearance back. It is rare that a Vice IPresi lent
sits with us and discusses things like this. We apIpeciate very nch
your time and your frankness this morning, and it has been a reat
Frankly, we do not know where all of this leads vet as I am
sure you will agree. but, we are tryi n to jret some (, tlie best
thinking going in this area, and we welcome your part icipatliol at
any time.
Vwre will be contiiuallv iii touch witl vow. We may want to sth-
iiiit somei of these questions here.
'e just appre('iate it yeryw mch volll l be I I Ier, tlis iiu) 1ia'.
vice President It R()cIK i;1Ai.. Ini closing. I would like to say that
to me, this is one of the most exciting tilngs hal)peliuiig il lo.e I',-
mnent in a long time, that it call be lerhal)s a hlertl'i iiitrI lator
in the fuitire of ollr co trv w I iose hitilre is o()t quite as clear
as some people think it is, l m loinion, altblough it can be the


most exciting moment in history, and I think we should strive to
make it that way, not only for ourselves, but for the world.
So maybe out of your work, that will come. [General applause.]
Chairman GLE.-N. I would like to place the statement of Senator
Humphrey in the record at this point.
[The prepared statement of Senator Humphrey follows:]

I am very pleased and honored to be a participant in this hearing and I
want to congratulate Senator Glenn for having the foresight and the imagina-
tion to step away from the routine business that threatens to engulf all of
us in Congress, and to look ahead at the future of our Nation and our society.
As I understand the title of the hearing or the symposium, "Our third
century; directions", your purpose is to examine the Governments procedures
for developing long range objectives and policies.
As chairman of the Joint Economic Committee, I began a similar inquiry a
year ago focused specifically on the Government's long range economic objec-
tives and economic policies. As a part of that effort I introduced, along with
Senator Jacob Javits, S. 1795 the Balanced Growth and Economic Planning
Without going into the details of the bill, it may be of some interest for
you to know something about the principles on which it is based and the
reasoning that is behind it. Obviously, our two committees are following a
similar thread.
I believe that planning procedures need to be established at the Federal
level in order for the Government to put its economic policy house in order.
Anyone familiar with economic conditions over the past few years and who
have studied the projections and forecasts for the next few years must know
that the present situation is grim and that the future is bleak and uncertain.
There have been accidents which have hindered the performance of the
economy-if you can call events like the oil embargo and the Russian grain
deal "accidents"-but it is no accident, in my judgement that the economy is
in as poor a condition as it is today.
The procedures followed by the Federal Government practically guarantee
that the economy will not perform well. In many respects they are not rational.
They are not systematic. They are not comprehensive. And they are not
There is no Government agency or office which concerns itself with the
medium and long range performance of the economy or with policies to in-
fluence that performance.
Policies are made by one or a few influential officials at the very top of the
Government and are then announced or launched. Congress and -the country
are often faced not with a proposal to be debated but with a decision that
has been made.
The decisions are made mostly by the President and his key economic
advisors. These consist of the Secretary of the Treasury, the Chairman of the
Council of Economic Advisers, the Director of the Office of Management and
Budget, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, and the President's own
White House Economic Council. This is a small group of experts,- an elite
gathering, to make such momentous decisions for so many. And a group
under great pressure to deal with today's problems. Under the present Admin-
istration, and often in the past, the cabinet is practically defunct. The
significance of this is that even within the Executive Branch there is little or
no coordination in the development and adoption of economic policies.
The Humphrey-Javits bill, therefore, adopted as one of its major objectives
the establishment of broadly based, democratic institutions for the making of
long range economic policy. To do this it is necessary to bring about some
degree of coordination within the Executive Branch and it is also necessary
that Congress be a full partner with the Executive. Congress as the repre-
sentative branch of government, can not afford to delegate to others the
policy making function.


Further, it is just as ilniortant to invlve, Ilie states n ml 1,cal i ,',erii Uie
in the pllInymaking process. I do not believe it is necessary for lwe it) ak
at length oil the fodly (of the Federal Goveriient xcl dinr qates :iid ,'rilitie'
from Federal decisions that involve the entire nation and that may impact
oil individual regions and C('lonllunities.
NOW. there are ()ther reasons which convin ed (Tf le i iiipi)rtli'ce (f
adopting systematic Idanning proceduress at the leeler. l 1e. I1eliye cN it1
economic planning is necessary if we are to achieve greater elli'iencv :iiil
equity in our system. The two go together,. ait h ei s) wIelt iie Iit:it fact is
not recognized or is ignored. But we can not have an11 eoIomIII y )I' I Nu cie!t
that works well if it is unfair.
Our economy is unfair to the millions of peoIle whor ire !lleidi ;l oyed a -i1
who are at present condemned to remain unempli)yed fT rthiie durti I. l(Wr
the duration of what? For the duration (of the period during -,lwichI l-e
Federal Government and its leaders flounder around without solutions ali
without vision.
Mr. Chairman, if we are to look forward we must look with vision. We can
not hope that things will improve by themselves.



S .1795

MAY 21, 1975
Mr. H-UMPiHREY (for himself, Mr. BAYH, Mr. CLANK, Mr. EAGLErON, Mr. JACK-
SON, Mr. JAVITS, Mr. McGEE, Mr. McGovERmN, and Mr. NELSON) introduced
the following bill; which was read twice and referredto the Committee on
Government Operations

To amend the Employment Act of 1946 'by providing for the
development and adoption of a balanced economic growth
plan, and for other purposes.
1 Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representa-
2 tives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
3 That the Employment Act of 1946 is amended by adding
4 at the end thereof the following newtitle:

8 "SEc. 201. This title may be cited as the 'Balnced

9 Growth and Economic Planning Act of 1975.'


2 "SEC. 202. (u) The United States is suffering its worst
3 economic decline since the 1930's. The combination of severe
4 inflation and recession has disrupted the Nation's economy

5 and has caused hardship for millions of Americans. Recession
6 and inflation have both revealed basic structural deficiencies
7 in the United States economy and have been intensified by
8 conflicting and erratic short-term economic policies without

9 in many cases providing long-term solutions.
10 "(b) The failure to develop a long term national eco-

11 nomic policy has also created fundamental imimlances in
12 the economy.

13 "(c) No single Government agency is responsible for
14 acquiring a current detailed view of the national economy

15 and its component interrelationships and the data necessary
16 to maintain such a picture. Without such information, it is
17 not possible adequately to analyze the economy, to antici-
18 pate and identify emerging problems, or to advise the Pre-i-

19 dent and the Congress about timely and effective action.
20 Government data collection must be better coordinated and
21 systematized and information should be in a form thnt per-

22 mits the identification in detailed ()mparison of major aval-
23 able options.

24 (d) Although the Federal Governineut plays a major
25 role in the Nation's economy, the United States has no sin-

69-83 76 4


1 gle governmental body engaged in the systematic and corn-
2 prehensive formulation of national economic goals and poli-
3 cies. The formulation of long term national economic goals,
4 the identification of, available and potential labor, capital,
5 and natural resources, and recommendations for policies to

6 reconcile goals and resources would enable the Federal Gov-
7 ermnent to determine and rationalize its own impact on the
8 national economy. These activities would provide assistance
9 to State and local governments and the private sector by
10 perlmitting action with greater knowledge of the Nation's
11 economic direction.
12 ".(e) The establishment of an agency to recommend
13 to the executive and legislative branches consistent long
14 range economic goals and priorities, and policies to provide
15 for their realization, would fill a major national need.
16 "(f) Individual economic security and personal well-

17 being are essential requirements to balanced growth in a free
18 society. The economic decisions of the Federal Government

19 have direct impact on the lives of individual citizens. It
20 is therefore necessary to provide a process of open and
21 democratic planning for the future to enable the citizens

22 of the United States to participate fully in the making of
23 policies affecting the national economy.,
24 "(g) The ,Congress finds that the formulation .of na-
25 tional economic goals, consistent with the Nation's economic
26 resources and the identification of coherent policies to realize


1 those goals are important national requirements wliith will
2 achievec balanced economic growth and promote the ceo-
3 nomfic well-being of all our citizens.

5 "SKc. 203. The purposes of this title are to:

6" "(1) Establish an Economic Planning Board in the
7 Executive Office of the President with responsibility for
8 anticipating the Nation's economic needs, measuring avail-
9 able national economic resources, asuring an adequate sup-

:O ply of industrial raw materials and energy, outlining eco-
11 nomic goals, and in the light of long-range economic trends
12 and opportunities, for developing a proposed balanced eco-

13 nomic growth plan, and recommending policies to achieve
14 the objectives of the plan.
15 "(2) Provide for the development of a balanced eco-

16 nomic growth plan, embodying coherent and realizable long-
17 term economic goals, consistent with the Nation's economic

18 resources and identifying the policies and actions that would
19. be required to attain such goals.
20 "(3) Provide for the coitimiing and systematic access

21 by the Economic Planning Board to economic information

22 and data required to prepare, review, an4 revise the balanced
23 economic growth plan and to ev'aluate implemenfation of the

24 plan, and for the general dissemnination of stich information
25 and data in accordance with this Act to promote widespread,


1 informed and effective public participation in the planning
2 process.
3 "(4) Provide for appropriate participation by State
4 and local governments and regional organizations, business,
5 labor, consumers, other interested groups, organizations,
6 and private citizens in the development and revision of such
7 plan.

8 "(5) Provide for congressional review of each proposed
9 balanced economic growth plan and for the approval or dis-

10 approval of the plan by concurrent resolution of -the Con-
11 gress.

12 "(6) Establish procedures whereby the departments
13 and agencies of the Federal Government will contribute to
14 the continued assessment and implementation of the balanced
15 economic growth plan.
17 "SEC. 204. (a) There is established in the Executive

18 Office of the President an Economic Planiing Board (re-
19 ferred to in this title as the 'Board'). The Board shall be

20 composed of three members who shall be appointed by the
21 President, by and with the advice and consent of the Sen-
22 ate. The Board shall be composed of persons of diverse
23 backgrounds and experience. The President shall designate
24 one of the members of te Board as Chairman.
25 kb) Th.4 Board, shall-


1 "(1) prepare and submit to the Council on 1ECuo-
2 nofic Planning a proposed balanced economic growtli
3 plan, as provided in section 208 (a) for aI)proval by

4 the Council;
5 (2) seek the active participation by regil)nal,

6 State, and local agencies and instrumentalities and the
7 private sector through public hearings and other appro-

8 priate means to insure that the views and proposals of

9 all segments of the economy are taken into account in the
10 formulation of the plan;
11 (3) evaluate and measure the achieveinent of the

12 goals and objectives contained in any approved balanced
13 economic growth plan and report thereon, as provided

14 in section 208 (b) ;
15 (4) review major programs and activities of the

16 Federal Government to determine the extent to which
17 such programs or activities are consistent with any ap-

18 proved plan;

19 "(5) coordinate the long-range planning activities
20 of the departments and agencies of the Federal Govern-
21 merit to assure maximum consistency of such activities
22 with the goals and objectives stated in an approved plan;
1%3 and

24 (6) carry out such other functions pertaining to
25 long-term economic planning as the President may direct.


1 "(c) The Board is authorized-
2 "(1), to appoint and fix .the compensation of, such
3 specialists and other experts as may be necessary to carry
4 out the functions of the Board, the Council, or any
5 advisory committee under this title, without regard to

6 the provisions of title 5, United States Code, governing
7 appointments in the competitive service, and without
8 regard to the provisions of chapter 51 and subchapter
9 11 of chapter 53 of such title regarding classification
10 and General Schedule pay rates; and subject to all such,
11 provisions, to appoint and fix the compensation of such
12 other officers and employees as may be necessary for'.
13 carrying out such functions;
14 "(2) to procure temporary and intermittent services'.
15 to the same extent as is authorized by section 3109 of
16 title 5, United States Code;
17 "(3) to contract with any public agency or instru-
18 mentality or with any person or organization for the

19 performance of services in. furtherance of the. functions
20 and responsibilities of the Office; and
21 "(4) hold such hearings at such times and places
22 as he deems advisable, and administer oaths and affirma-
23 tions to witnesses.
24 "(d) (1) Section 5313 of title 5, United States Code,
25 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following:


1 (13) Members of the Ecoiiotnic Plawting Board.'
3 "-fc. 205. (a) There is established in the JBoard a
4 Djvis-ion of Econonmic Jnfortnation through which the Bo ard
5 is authorized 'to secure information, data, estimates, a l(d sta-
-6 tistics directly from various ,departments, agencies, and
7 establisnnents of the executive branch of Government. All
8 such departments, agencies, and establishments shall furnish
9 the Board any available material Which it determines to be
10 necessary in the performancee fd its ,daties and functions
11 .(other than material the Aisdosuire of which would be a
12 violation ,of law). The Board is also authorized upon agree-
13 ment with the head of any such department, agency, or es-
14 tablishment, to utilize its -services, facilities, ,and personnel
15 with or without oimbursment, and the head .of each such

16 department, agency, or establishment is authorized to provide
17 the T)ireotor such services, facilities, ;amd personnel.
18 (b) The Board shall carry out a program to insure the

19 dissemination of economic data, statistics, and information in
20 such form and manner as will provide a basis on which State
21 and local governments, private enterprise, and the Federal
22 governmentt an make informed economic decisions and par-
23 ticipate effectively in the planning process carried out under
24 thyis title.
2.5 ",c) (1) The furnishing of any information, data, esti-


1 mates, or statistics under this title by any person acting

2 independently or pursuant to a requirement established
3 under this title shall not be a violation of or evidence of a
4 violation of any of the antitrust laws of the United States.

5 "(2) D)isclosure of any information, data, estimates, or

6 statistics in violation of any rule or regulation prmulgated
7 by the Board or the disclosure of any trade secret or pro-

8 prietary information or any other information furnished to
9 the Federal Government on a confidential basis by any per-

10 son in the exercise of functions under this title shall be a
11 violation of section 1905 of title 18, United States Code.

13 "SEC. 206. (a) There is established in the Economic
14 Planning Board a Council on Economic Planning (refe-rred

15 to in this title as the 'Council') which shall consist of-
16 "(1) the Chairman of the Economic Planning
17 Board, who shall be the Chainnan of the Council;
18 "(2) the Secretary of State;

19 "(3) the Secretary of the Treasury;
20 (4) the Secretary of Defense;
21 "(5) the Secretary of the Interior;

22 "(6) the Secretary of Housing and Urban Develop-
23 ment;

24 "(7) the Attorney General;
25 (8) the Secretary of Transportation;
S. 1795--2





1 "(9) tie Secretary of Agriculture;

2 (10) the Secretary of Commerce;
3 (11) the Secretary of Labor;

4 (12) the Secretary of Healtli, Educ ioit, an,(1

5 Welfare;

6 (13) the Chairman of the Fcderall Reser-ve B-rd a;

7 "(14) the Chairman of the Council of Ecoiioiic

8 Advisers;

9 (15) the Director of the Office of Managenteit

10 and Budget;

11 (16) the Administrator of the Federal Eiieirgy

12 Administration; and

13 (17) the Chairman of the Advisorx (.ominitte on

14 Economic Planning.

15 (b) It shall be the function of the Council to review

16 and make such revisions as it deems appropriate in the bal-

17 anced economic growth plan as submitted by the Botrd

18 under section 204, and, upon approval of the plan, to t,' as-

19 mit the plan to the President, and to review, (M I a regular

20 basis, progress made in the implemenitatioii of the plan. 'I'l e

21 Council shall adopt such rules for the con(luct of its business

22 as it may deem proper.

24 ''SEC. 207. (a) To furnish advice anad assistaIlwie to ille

25 Board in the preparation and review of the plan, tlhrie is,

1 established an Advisory Committee on Economic Planning

2 which shall consist of-
3 "(1) four members appointed by the President;
4 "(2) four members appointed by the Speaker of
5 the House of Representatives; and

6 "(3) four members appointed by the President of,
7 the Senate.
8 The Committee shall elect Chairman, and shtll meet at the
9 call of -the Ghkrinmn, but not less ;than twice a year. The
10 members of the Advisory Committee shall lye appointed from
11 among repre entafives of business, kibor, and the public -t

12 large, who are competent by virtue of trainilig or experieiWe
13 to fuinish ,advice to ithe Board on the views and opinions. of
14 broad segments of the public in matters involved in the for-
15 mulation and implementation of the balanced economic
16 growth plan. Each member of the Advisory Committee shall
17 be entitled to be compensated At a rate equal to the per diem

18 equivalent of the vatte for an individual occupying a position
19 under level III of the Execuive Schedule under section

20 5314 of title 5, United States Code, when engaged in the
21 actil, performance of his dutiie6 as such a member, and each
22 member shall be entitled to reimbursement for travel,sb
23 sistence, and other necessary expenses incuri'ed in the pt-
24 formance of his duties.
25 "(b) The Advisory Committee is authoized to estah,


1 lish regiionl or indua,4rv sul )euiIT nn i tcc' t t'o furli isll :dvic((' aI d

2 assistance to it ill the foliulatioii at(l i ipl(citciittli)n of tie

3 plai. Aiiv -, 5h sl)t()iim1littee shall con) ist 0f at least ine
4 uinliter of the Advisory (1onimiittee ,and slill he li-nidlv
5 rel)reseiitatlive t)f the l fl rtivul rr re0,p' i.i l., p.l 'lildillo"

6 binsiesUs, l al)or, aTid onsmir iiiterests.
7 "'II," BALANC'EI) I()NO mIIC (; \ Ir AN

8 "S. 208. (a) Not later than April 1, 1977, ndl hi-
9 annually thereafter, the President shall transniit to the Co)i-
10 gress a proposed long-term balanced economic grovth l)lail

11 prep red by the Board and approved by the ( "ouncil. The
12 plan shall-

13 "(1) establish economic objectives for a period to
14 be determined by the Board, paying particular attention
15 to the attainment of the goals of full emplovnent, price
16 stability, balanced economic growth, an equitable dis-

17 tribution of income, the efficient utilization of both I)ri-

18 vate and public resources, balanced regional and urban

19 development, stable international relations, land meeting
20 essential national needs in transp)ortation, energy, a''ri-

21 culture, raw materials, housing, education, public erv-

22 ices, and research and development;
23 (2) identify the resources required for achie"iiig
24 the economic objectives of the plain l forecasting the
25 level of production and investment by major iidustirinl,



1 agricultural, and other sectors, the levels of State, local,
2 and Federal Government economic activity, and relevant
3 international economic activity, for the duration of the
4 plan; and

5 "(3) recommend legislative and administrative ac-
6 tions necessary or desirable to achieve the objectives of
7 the plan, including recommendations with respect to

8 money supply growth, the Federal budget, credit needs,
9 interest rates, taxes and subsidies, antitrust and merger
10 policy, changes in industrial structure and regulation, in-

11 ternational trade, and other policies and programs of

12 economic significance.
13 "(b) The President shall, submit to the Congress with
14 the proposed plan a report prepared by the Board and ap-
15 proved by the Council. The report shall-
16 "(1) provide whatever data and analysis are nec-

17 essary to support the objectives, resource needs, and
18 policy recommendations contained in the plan;

19 "(2) provide an examination of longer term eco-
20 nomic trends beyond the period of the plan and recom-

21 mend objectives with respect to the goals outlined in
22 subsection (a) (1) ;

23 "(3) compare the actual results with respect to
24 matters referred to in subsection (a) since the sub-
25 mission of the previous plan with the projected results

1 of the plan when submitted and indicate (A) the reason
2 for any failure to achieve the objectives of that plan,
3 (B) the steps being taken to achieve the obje(tti.v, (;of

4 the previous plan, and ((1) any iiecesary revisions iii

5 the plan.

7 "SEC. 209. (a) The Board shall establish procedures

8 to insure widespread consultation with regional, State., and
9 local planning agencies in preparation of the plan.

10 (b) At the time of submission of any proposed plan
11 to the Congress, the President shall transmit copies of the
12 plan to the Governor of each State and to other appropriate

13 State and local officials. Within sixty days from the subniis-
14 sion by the President to Congress of the proposed plan. the
15 Governor of each State may submit to the Joint Economic

16 Committee a report containing findings and reconimenda-

17 tions with respect to the proposed plan. Any such rel)ort
18 submitted by a Governor shall include the views and com-

19 ments of citizens within the State, afterpublicl hearings

20 have been held within the State.
21 (c) Upon the request of any regional, State, o1 lweal
22 planning agency, the Economic Plalming Board shall review

23 the plan of such agency to determine its consistency with

24 the plan and recomnend ('alles to bring sIch plan or1lIe
25 fully into conf,,rinity with the plan. Funds available to ,tch

1 an agency under section 701 of the Housing Act of 1954

2 may, in accordance with such regulations as the President
3 may prescribe, be used by such agency for the purpose of

4 making such changes.

6 ISiEC. 210. (a) Each proposedN balanced economic
7 growth plan shall be referred to the Joint Economic Coin-

8 mittee of the Congress. Within sixty days after receipt by
9 the Congress of such proposed plan, each standing committee

10 of the House of Representatives and each standing committee
11 of the Senate and each joint committee of the Congress shall

12 submit to the Joint Economic Committee a report containing
13 its views and recommendations with respect to all matters
14 contained in the plan which relate to matters within the

15 jurisdiction of each such committee. The reports by Ithe
16 Committee on the Budget of the Senate and the Committee

17 on the Budget of the House of Representatives shall contain

18 the recommend.-tions of such committees respecting budget

19 policy for the duration of the plan.

20 (b) The Joint Economic Committee shall hold such

21 hearings for the purpose of receiving testimony from Mem-
22 bears of Congress, appropriate representatives of Federal

23 departments and agencies, the general public, and interested

24 groups as the committee deems advisable. The committee
25 shall also consider the comments and views on the proposed


1 plan which are received from State and local officials under

2 section 209.
3 (c) Not later than one hundred and five days after the

4 submission of a proposed national economic plan to the

5 Congress, the Joint Economic Committee shall report to the

6 House of Reircsentatives and to the Seia t/ olaurrleflt

7 resolution which shall state in substance that (1onlress

8 approves or disapproves the proposed plan, in whole or in

9 part, and which may contain such alternatives to, modifica-

10 tions of, or additions to the plan as the committee deems

11 appropriate. The report accompanying such concurrent res-

12 olution shall include findings and recommendations of the

13 committee with respect to each of the main recominmenda-
14 tions contained in the proposed plan. The Joint E(onomlic

15 Committee may from time to time make such other reports

16 and recommendations to the house amid Senate as it deeiis

17 advisable.

18 (d) Not later than one hundred and thirty-five day

19 after submission of a proposed national economic plan to the

20 Cong'ress, the ( ouagress shall act upon a concurrent rcsoltition

21 reported under suhsection (c) Upon adoption of any suich

22 resolution, a copy thereof, together with a copy of any report

23 or document prepared by ainy coiniiittee of either house or

24 by an. joiit ( lniittce iii colliection with the msidhratiomi


1 by the Congress -of the 'proposed plan shall be transmitted to,
2 the President.
.3 "'(e) There are hereby authorized to be appropriaded to
4 the Joint Beonomic Oemmittee such sums .as may be neces-
5 sary to enable it to carry out its functions ;under this se-tion.
,7 "Sac. 211. (a) Upon receipt eof a oencurrent resolutiou
8 pursuant to section 208, the President may wnake such raodi-
,9 lications as ,he deems appropriate ,in any part of the plan
10 vviich was disapproved or wich .was -not appmvod by tke
11 Congress, and shall publish a copy of &e plan, -together ,with
12 a ,copy of the ooneurrent resolution and all reports and doctt-
13 meats acompanying sudh resolution, except -that, if the con-
14 current resolution ,disapproved the entire proposed pan, the
15 P. sident shall revise the plan and resubmit it -to the Congress
16 not later than -thirty days after the :receipt of the concurrent
17 :esolution. Not later than thirty idays after receipt of a revised
18 plan under the preceding sentence, -the 'Congress shall, by

19 concu-rent resolution, approve or disapprove, in whole or in
20 aWAt, -the revised plan.
21 "(b) The President direcly, or acting through the

22 Board, uray not take any action under section 212, and the
23 Board ,way not -take any action wisder such section, with



1 respeot to any part of the plan which has not been approved

2 or which has been disapproved by the Congress.
4 "SEC. 212. (a) The President, with the assistance of
5 the Board, shall take appropriate actions to insure that the
6 departments and agencies of the executive branch will carry
7 out their programs and activities in such a manner as to
8 further the objectives of the plan, and to encourage State and
9 local governments and the private sector to carry out their
10 programs and activities in such a manner as to further the
11 objectives of the plan.
12 "(b) Whenever the Board determines that any. depart-
13 ment or agency of the Federal Government has submitted
14 any budget request to the President or the Congress, or pro-
15 posed any legislation, rule, or regulation, or undertaken any
16 other activity which may have a significant effect on the

17 achievement of the goals and objectives contained in an
18 approved balanced economic growth plan, the Board may
19 require the head of such department or agency to submit a
20 detailed statement to the Board assessing the consistency of
21 the proposed budget, legislation, rule, regulation, or other
22 action, with the plan, together with the reasons for any
23 significant departure from such goats and objectives.

69-838 0 76 5

3 "SEC. 213. (a) There is established within the Congres-
4 sional Budget Office a Division of Balanced Growth and
5 Economic Planning (hereinafter referred to as the 'Divi-
6 sion') to perform long-term economic analysis. The Division
7 shall be headed by a Deputy Director who shall perform his
8 duties under the supervision of the Director of the Congres-
9 sional Budget Office and shall perform such other duties as
10 may be assigned to him by the Director. Such Deputy Direc-
11 tor shall be -appointed in the same manner, serve for the same
12 period, and receive the same compensation as the Deputy

13 Director provided for in section 201 of the Congressional
14 Budget Act of 1974. 14
15 "(b) It shall be the responsibility of the Division to
16 assist the Joint Economic Committee in the discharge of

17 its duties under this Act and to provide--
18 "(1) information with respect to long-term eco-

19 nomic trends, national goals, resource availability, and
20 the economic policies necessary to achieve balanced
21 long-term economic growth,
22 "(2) information necessary for the preparation of



1 the report and concurrent resolution deutified in section
2 210 (d), and
3 (3) such related information as the corninittee

4 may request.
5 "(c) At the request of any other committee of the

6 House of Representatives or the Senate, or any joint corn-
7 mittee of Congress, the Division shall provide to such corn-

8 mittee or joint committee the information necessary to fulfill
9 their responsibilities under section 208 (a).

11 "SEC. 214. There are authorized to be appropriate
12 such sums as may be necessary to carry out the provisions

13 of this title.".
15 SEC. 2. It shall be the duty of the Council of Economic
16 Advisers to make an analysis of the relationship between the
17 economic report and the plan. The analysis of the Council

18 shall be included in the economic report transmitted to

19 Congress.

21 SEC. 3. At the time of the t)resentatiou of the first }al-
22 atned economic growth pkln to Gongress, the I)iviion of
23 Economic Information of the Econo(mic lannini II, rd at
24 the direction of and with the aproval of the Board, shall


1 transmit to the Oongress a report on economic data, statistics,
2 and information, which shall contain the following:
3 (1) A review, carried out in conjunction with other

4 departments and agencies of the Federal Government,
5 of the activities, methods, and purposes of the informa-

6 tion and statistical gathering, collation, analysis, and
7 presentation functions of -the Federal Government.

8 (2) An analysis of the existing information and
9 statistical systems, and the economic data required under
10 section 204 of this Act.
11 (3) Recommendations for the improvement or mod-

12 ification in the standards, methods, -and systems of sta-
13 tistics and information gathering.
14 (4) Recommendations for such additional authority
15 as may be necessary to obtain data not available under
16 section 204 of this Act.


Chairman GLENN. Thank you very much.
We will stand in rec(ss until 2o'clock this ,ft.rnoon.
[Whereupon, at 12:45, the sym)osium recessed, to reconvene at
2 p.m. this same day.]


lVashgnqtoii, D.C.
The symposium met, pursuant to notice, at 2:10 p.i. in room
3302, the Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John Glenn (ad hoc
chairman) presiding.
Present: Senators Glenn and Javits.
Also present: Senator Cranston.
Chairman GLEN-N. The meeting will be in order.
It is my very distinct pleasure to welcome the members of the
panel this afternoon. We look forward to discussing the overall
problem which was outlined this morning, problems and opportu-
nities I guess is what we are talking about.
Rather than repeating any opening statements we may have had
this morning and repeating things you may have already talked
about with us on the phone or in the letters we have had back and
forth, I would like to summarize what happened this morning.
Of course, we are in the framework of looking into how we do
our long-term planning or lack of it or whatever procedures are
used in that direction. We are trying to consider how this needs to
be improved, or reestablished, or made better, and are trying to
answer three very general statements, and these are used as sort
of an umbrella: (1) WVhat role should Governmelnt play in the set-
ting of long-term goals and the development of strategies for
achieving those goals? (2) What is Government l)Iesent lv doing in
this regard, and is it in any way deficient? (3) If it is deficieTt,
what could be done to improve the effort, either through the reform
of existing institutions, or the development of new institutions.
Now, obviously, those are broad questions to address. This 1moring.
the Vice President made comments on each one of those ar eas which
I think could be quite properly suminarized as follows.
Under No. 1, what role should Governnient play. lie felt that we
really have to make much more effort to get the executive and leczis-
lative branches working together, not just as budget tine, but also
in areas of general public support, which would include union, luau-
agement, business, and so on. We have to bring in all elements of
society if this whole thing is really to work.
There obviously are international as well as national connotations
to it, and there are implications at the Federal, State, lnd local


He felt that, in trying to get the executive and legislative branches
together-which he described as far too compartmentalized-we need
to set up some structures that will cut across lines. So, let us ad-
dress specific problems.
We did not really get into the integrative planned approach to
things that he felt we should have.
He commented on the two overriding factors of oil, or energy, and
food supplies that sort of overshadow everything else.
Under No. 2, what is Government presently doing in this regard,
he felt that too often we are only reactive, we only take action
after something happens and then we are forced into activity.
And No. 3, as far as what can be done, he says in looking around
for a home we should consider the efforts of the Commission on
Critical Choices. After looking at all of the options that they could
find as to where that group could possibly go, the one that looked
the best to him-and which we might want to consider for any
long-range planning group-would be in the Smithsonian. It has
already within its existing framework, legislative, judicial, and execu-
tive representation in addition to both public and private support.
It could be structured with leadership as he said, that is open to new
And then there was a large general discussion in all of these dif-
ferent areas, but I think his comments under those areas could be
summarized about in that fashion.
Now, what we had hoped today was that if there were statements
that people have, that we could hopefully submit them for the
record and summarize them in as rapid time as possible, so that we
can have the maximum amount of time to kick ideas around here
and to perhaps come up with some new concepts of ways to approach
this whole long-term planning idea. We will be glad to print any
of your statements, however long those statements may be in the
We certainly welcome you here today to the committee. I think
you know from our letters back and forth what the general problem
is that we are trying to address.
As the Vice President said this morning, he doesn't think that
there is any more important problem in our whole government area
that we should be addressing than the one that we are taking on here.
It may not be as spectacular as some of the more immediate prob-
lems that are being handled on a crisis basis, but for the long term
to make sure we ever celebrate a tricentennial in this country, con-
siderations along the line that the committee is trying to take up are
probably the most important.
Senator Cranston of California, who is not a member of the Gov-
ernment Operations Committee, has been interested in this general
area for a long time and has done much study-in the area. We are
glad to welcome him to sit with the committee today.
Other members of the committee will probably be in and out as
we are required to go vote. Alan, do you have any remarks before
we get into a discussion?
Senator CRANSTON. I don't want to make remarks, but I would
like to pose a question, and I appreciate the opportunity, since I
have to leave about 3 o'clock.


I would like to get the comments of t l panel in tie discussion,
just generally, if I may.
Chairman GLEN N. I)o you want to Wait u iitil after th leoi wn ing
Senator CmRxSTO.N. If I could do that after the opellilng state-
Chairman GL-:xx. If we could keel) the opening statemits as
short as possible, we will get. Sellator (i''aIist0115('st liS] isfirst. Itlien
I can continue after lie leaves.
I will just take the order of people in which they happen to be
listed on our agenda for the afternoon here.
First is Dr. Barry Commoner of Washington Universitv. I think
we know him from a long time back in writing many articles and
books and so on.
Barry, do you have any opening statement which you would like
to make?
Dr. Co0T10xER. Since I am a professor, you had better give me
a time limit. Do you want a 5-minute statement, 45-minute state-
Chairman GLENN. X1hatever you think would be adequate to the
cause. I do not want to place that type of a time limit on you. We
would like to keep to just a few minutes for each person, so we
can have the maximum time for discussion.

Dr. C0 3MNER. I would just like to briefly take off from the
remarks that you made about the importance of long-range plan-
ning and its relation to what we might call the crisis response.
I really want to make one simple point, that the reason we are
not sufficiently involved in long-range planning which deals with
future, long-range trends, is that we have terribly neglected our
long-term past.
One of the most shocking things that I find about our under-
standing, of the way we produce goods and the way we use re-
sources, is that there have been serious trends, which have taken
place over the last 25 or 30 years. I call that long term. These
trends tell us where we are going in the long-term future, and we
are totally unaware of it.
Let me just give you one or two examples.
One of the most powerful trends in our production system is that
the efficiency with which we use energy is falling. The produictixvity
of energy. tihe output that we get per Bti of e rrgy ised, is dlop-
ping. One of the long-term trends that causes tlhis is tim silbstit uti n
of synthetic materials for natural naterial.s.
Cotton is a way of capturing solar energy which you get free since
you cannot put the molecules together without the ener0.rv.
When swnthetic substitutes are for cotton, von still need enery
to put the fiber together. This time you get the energy f roim lpetroleulli
and you still need the rax materal.
In other words, if it takes energy to make a shirt, let us say, as
we switch from cotton shirts to synthetics. we are mreatlv increase
the amount of energy that is required to produce the shirt. We are
reducing the productivity of energy.


This is a serious, long-term trend, and we have been unaware of
it, and it has led to a very serious long-term economic trend. In
order to use synthetics, machinery which requires a great deal of
capital and very little labor is used to substitute for the previous
way of doing it.
For example, when you switch from producing a lady's handbag
out of leather to producing it from synthetics, it takes more energy
to make that handbag. It takes much more capital-I can give
you the numbers later-and it takes a lot less labor.
The long-term trend, then, is for two things to become in short
supply: one is capital, and the other is jobs.
Although the business community has suddenly noticed that there
is a shortage of capital, it is really a crisis issue which has arisen
out of a long-term trend. Unless we understand these long-term
trends, we do not know how to respond to the immediate crisis.
So my theme is that our problem here is not to sit and prog-
nosticate about the future. Our problem is that we do not understand
our past. For that reason, our present is full of unperceived crises,
crises that are sprung on us: the environmental crisis, the energy
I will stop there.
Chairman GLENN. Thank you.
Mr. Richard Barnet, the Institute for Policy Studies.
Mr. BARNET. I think Government clearly does have a responsi-
bility in setting goals, and in fact does set the goals in a haphazard
and unclear way at present through the budget and other kinds of
The problem, I think, is that we have not sufficiently defined our
overriding national goals or the way in which the issue of conflicting
goals and conflicting vIormties ought to be debated in a democratic
The overriding national goal, in my view, and the one that is
given insufficient attention by Government, is the goal of national
survival, physical survival of the United States in the nuclear age.
I believe that the danger of nuclear war is the most underrated
crisis facing the United States in a time of multiple crises, and that
we have assumed-again, I think, following the kind of thinking
that Dr. Commoner referred to-that we can plan for the future
on the basis of an unexamined past. What we have failed to do
is to examine the way in which the national security strategies which
we have followed for the past 25 and 30 years have, in fact,- under-
mined in very substantial ways, the national security of the country.
We have done this because we have thought about the problem
in compartmentalized ways although we have somehow seen that
there was a tension between "the needs of the city" and national
security, we have not seen that they are fundamentally a part of the
same issue and that if, in fact, our security is threatened, and I
believe in many ways it is, it is related to the inability of the

country to make tie necessary ilm-v(st it to dlevelop t l( eu'onic
strengrth (id resources of thw coH t v. to) I'Ox i le a se, ', cx1stene
for all Americans.
I think that is the single most-i11)r1ant n1atio(nlal g(al; th(,re are
others. of coul rse, blt we ia (, 1(do sIt III) It'0il1' )20% 11wIll II t ila-
chinery fo.tal'tglllg Oult what, it fact, a'e t lie ways ii x,]Ilicli we
should all ocate oii li cessa ii v ljiii it ed resou rces.
We have assumed, ill)intii very v'ecetI tli tat our re(soil r('es were
unlimited, and we could do juist aboit ankt tliiiu we walte(' il t11
field of military i)reparedoess ad (jolliest i" potll(.
rh facts.f 'eIf lii k. aIre ot llerNW ise, a ll We,111li-t e l el h)at e tI iese intel-
relationships so that inl the political arena we do ot coldlinue to
make the same mistakes ill the future that we h8ve made in ti
IFmially, I would just add tliat ie ii to I e a 11o1ion develop-
in in this country, and proinote( iy e politicians. tliat (Iovern-
ment is bad, that Government really is unable too per for'i tasks for
the improvement of life for citizens.
I think there are reasons why that so. (Goverimet has often
failed. Government is inefficient, sonietillies GovermuIent is corrupt.
and it is difficult and unwieldy. But the fact is not that GoverIIInent
is bad; it is that we have formed a bad Governi(nt. Ve must find
ways, both to make Government more responsive to citizens al(
also to develop I)rocedures in which important decisions for the
public sector are being made by publicly accountable and publicly
responsible authorities. We must develop institut ions for 1iore (I(-
mocracy in this country or we will end up with much less than
we have now.
Chairman GLENN. Thank you very much.
Mrs. Mary Bunting, former president of Radcliffe.
Mrs. BUNTING. Thank you.
It occurs to me as I listen that there are some inherent problems
in trying to work effectively toward lon0-range goals ini a d( mocracy
where short-range goals win votes.
I also wonder, when we e gin to think about longr-range roals,
whether we don't have to focus first on what the problems are that
need to be tackled, what the opportunities are that could be realized.
and then try to tlink about ttle a l f )roaclle at Itwill b e effectil (,.
And when it comes to the approaches. it does see to tle that
we need to be much more experil-ineal as we work for socal ellan11e
than we have been in general. \Ve face (olosaI i nora(e of tilte
forces involve(l anl need u cli nore data w "forewecan Vru, t com-
prehelnsivo planniln.
I think we have ap)rOachd-( long-range I)lan1iing like alchlemllists.
looking for mag.("ic keys t hat will traiistiiit e 0111' I ithijlt ics i iito pl'-
cnus metals, instead( ()f realizing tile i1t)01 ta lice(o01 ga if i ug1o01
understanding of tdhe factors that intlueuice tlie phenoItiiea th'at we
are concerned with.


I know this struck me very clearly the year I worked here in
Washington in 1964-65 on the Atomic Energy Commission. As an
extracurricular activity I was in touch with Frank Keppel and
other people in HEW, and I was impressed with the difference in
the amount of information available, but also in the hard thinking
and calculations, inadequate as they may have been, that went on
at AEC as we were trying to decide whether to approve experi-
ments in the plowshare program, as compared with the casual, un-
informed, massive push to start Headstart.
There are many kinds of problems that we need to attack, not
by setting up major programs, but by fostering multiple initiatives
under competent people, evaluating them, making the results public,
and letting the thing build until we understand the basic facts and
can construct theories that lead us somewhere, predictions that work
out, at which point we can move forward on a bigger scale.
I don't know whether that has been helpful or not.
Chairman GLENN. Thank you very much.
Mr. Alvin Toffler, author and student of some of the problems
of the future, author of "Future Shock... "The Culture Consumers,"
his latest book, which I haven't had the pleasure of reading yet,
Alvin, is "Eco-spasm," and we welcome you today.
Mr. TOFFLER. I find myself sharing some of the concerns of the
other speakers, but seeing them from a sharply different perspective.
I think the advice that we study the past and that we analyze
the present is sensible. Nobody who thinks seriously about the future
would argue with that.
My problem is that in the very nature of our political system,
there are enormous incentives to think short range and to act short
range and to ignore anything beyond the next election.
I believe that all of the basic problems that we have heard dis-
cussed-ranging from energy, foreign policy, to the economy to high-
level unemployment, to the eco-spastic condition of our economy-
all of these have a common element, and that common element is
What we are witnessing in the United States today is a funda-
mental breakdown of the political process. The mythologies on which
our entire political system are based, ranging from our ideas of
representation, our notions about the separation of power-indeed,
the Constitution itself-are being called into question by absolutely
basic shifts in technology and geopolitical relationships on the planet.
I think that in order to confront the basic crises, the multiple
crises, in which this country is caught, we have to look at the entire
process of planning in a totally new way.
The assumption most people make is that if we plan, we have to
produce a centralized master plan, that everything in it has got to
be scientific.
I disagree with that. What is basic here is not science but the
political process. Planning must be open to a variety of inputs, ideas,
and data, not all of which will or should come from purely quanti-
tative analysis.


I believe that what we iee(1 is a new I)I()ee-s tht 1I(all alitic pa-
tory democracy. We have got to inIvent a lwlI( P(lit ical lorocess for
dealing with long-termn questions, a1(1 tlhat 1)olitialI p 1's('t lilOt
be left to technocrats, experts, engilers, systlm alilsas, econ onist s
and people like myself.
We need to invent a new approach to plallrling -a id ittdeed, the
word itself is so heavily freighted with old ('olliot atios that I wotIld
welcome a new one-we need to design a new approach toward goal
setting that involves not handfuls of exports, but literally 1n1illions
of people. That may sound naive, but I believe that iiiiless we do
that, we are going to see such frustration welling llp in the county
that there will be anarchic outbreaks of violence. People already
understand that our present political st ruct ures are inadequate foil
coping with the crises facing us, but that they (1 tnot. }lar anybody
seriously talking about institutional rest ruct during iii this country,
and that that adds to the profound frustration that they fee. We
need to open a national discussion about the political process itself,
and the ways to achieve democratic planning.
There are, in fact, some models, some good ideas floating around
that have received insufficient attention. There are experiments all
over this country that involve getting citizens and governmental
agencies together to grapple with very long-terlm questions.
Nobody, I think, has the answer for how this can be done, but I
believe that some of these experiments are well worth our attention,
and I would like to conclude my opening statement byl describing a
process which the State of Washington has been engaged in in the
last 2 years, because it suggests to me a completely different way of
looking at the issues of planning.
This is a program begun, initially as I understand it, by the State
planning office. It is called alternatives for Washington.
State planners came to what I regard as a sensible conclusion
that you can't plan for people. You can make plans for people, but,
unless you are prepared to coerce people into accepting them, your
plans are not going to be carried out. But, if you invol p( eople
from the start in shaping the goals toward which plaiining is di-
rected, you have a much better chance of success.
Therefore, citizen participation is not a nice thing to have. it is
the absolutely fundamental sine qua non, without which voi can-
not have effective planning.
In Washington, they approached the people with the slogan. "You
don't have to be an expert to know what you want. -We ieed
expertise, we need highly qualified specialists. but thev call hel) us
determine how to achieve our goals, not what our goals should he.
The State planning officials approached every organiizatioll il the
State-black organizations, won-teii's roiips. 11sWness or!'iaiIzat iol,
and others-and asked them" nWhomN would %on like to have do 5s0
thinking about the fitture of the State of Wah nll.ton for yo"u,?
They pulled together a list of alplr'oxiliatel i -000 "allaes and1
from that chose random sa 111ples and created a roup of cit izeis
Comm issioins on the filit ire of tlie State o(f Wtashiiitoii.
Thev asked these people: What do von wa ut thle State to lok ike
15 vears from now? And tlwse peole ('ane forward( \vilt; all s ,rts
of goals. We want this in lhousi and that in t ransport a-Il t hat in


jobs and that kind of ecological safeguard, and so forth. The citizens
produced a long list of proposed goals for health, education, and
many other fields.
Then they said to the citizens. "All of these things are interrelated,
so we have got to study the interrelationships." And they did.
Together they concluded that goals without strategies are sense-
less, so they wrote scenarios about how to achieve various goals.
Then they said, "Well now, if we achieved all of this, what new
problems would that create ?"-which is a question unfortunately
nobody ever asks.
And finally they said, "Can we not put these in the form of
coherent packages or policies that will be useful to the legislative
process?" And one group of citizens said, "Vhat we want to do is
industrialize the State rapidly." And they replied, "Fine, tell us
how you would do that-what does that mean for housing, for health,
for transportation, for schools, and so on."
Another group of citizens said, "We don't want that at all. We
want better agricultural development." OK, let's have your program.
Another group said, "No, we don't want that, we want to develop
the tourist and recreational facilities of the State." Yet another
group said, "We want to turn Washington into a major port of
entry for trade with Asia and China and Japan."
Each of these groups put forward an alternative vision of the
future of the State of Washington, 11 alternator programs in all.
These were then published in tabloid newspapers and distributed by
the State through every newspaper in the State. They were pre-
sented on television programs. Citizens were given ballots with which
they could respond to that.
Random sample surveys were made by telephone and by mail to
reach population groups who would not ordinarily participate in an
exercise like this. And at the end of the line came a set of goals,
or rough proposals, rough general directions for policies in the
State. With these, the planners were able to create a "legislative
Across the top were listed the goals which were elicited from the
citizen participation process, and down the side they listed every
bill introduced in the State legislature in the course of the year-
some 700 bills or more, each ticked off to see whether it would ad-
vance or obstruct the movement toward those citizen goals.
I tell you this story, not because I think this is the ultimate solu-
tion to our problems by any means, but because it represents a way
of thinking about processes that we need for developing long-range
goals in the country. Unless we can have many such experiments,
we are going to be bumbling along, our minds filled with obsolete
thinking about "master plans," and we will work ourselves into a
corner that we will never get out of.
Chairman GLE-NNs-. Thank you very much.
Mr. C. Jackson Grayson, former Chairman of the Price Commis-
sion, Southern Methodist University.
Mr. GRAYsoN. Thank you, Senator.

Mr. I x sx. 1finll~lII\ sri f NN-l i~. 1111 'Mr. I)IlI i lls
desire o IIIlake thIe poltiral r IctsI aos deenI ralizct 1 l I 1l)1
vith citizelI il vOVel IIt. I llat1* 1 i ol o i tie f I.
'Ft(eare ITIwanit to u p a lllin to v I hat(df'II,,,, 14)lfillew.ire(of
1)olit 1cs and( ecollill 1ics. I I\ o \ rdI j 0 1111 I I I ,III oAr I tre I
f'" pol'Ie lics" and t hat \s wl1 t vII -- I IIl(Il !1 stI1I t Ij ', \ie tII.
Nyvstatement is In the direct o1 (I trv ii I to (LU as Ic as po -
silI leIt( keel, ) t Ile 1)oli t Ica I a I Iit woo I I II c s .-tI II ('' I taI I ied anIdI
I personally had the prience int le I'rice ('o n i-'-io mof
trying to centrally direct allocation of econou((ic resol rCes ,usiu c as
many models as I could get,
AWe w(re iot evei close to lbeiflg able to 1 ake a1loations that
were as efficient and as productive as the market 1ir('sse-.
That does not mean that tle i arhet process is per fet [I t hat thI
political inst itution s are perfect. but I thi k an atIenpt to cha 1 e
over to systems of central allocation is foin in the wrouw direction.
I don't know what goals would be sou'ht. I don't kimv who woull
be the designer--on what basis he -would decide, and what hiis
criteria would be.
It would ke dangerous, therefore, to t rv to d irect economic
decisionmaking and long-ran ge ecouom ic )lau-niI b)5 a ce ntral prO-
ess. I would much rather see the political pI'wce55 irected tow8 r(
keeping the economic process decent ralized antd efficient. The polii-
eal rocesses would be directed toward reIiova of strict ra Iblocks
to inefficiency of the market system, trying to remove areas where
competition is niot working, and so on.
AX ietlittr people believe that we should nove towa rd nationl 1oal
making and create m elhaiisnis to carry tlose out, or keepI 1 tem
decentralized, is a conflict of ideology-the ideol of imd iv id;Il ism.
private prop)erty. and ileceutr / lll \ e'011 V s llluhl raiuu
egalitarianism. and equality of results.
upon which ideology you couie from, yIouave dif-
ferent Prescriptions, both economy liic(al lv amd politically a* to what we
should do.
J submit that our economic systenu is how ph ned. It is Ilanuied
by tIhe consumers. Not perfectly, fo(r we havy, soiiie nii'-a1rat ions.
AlVe have made mistakes, m101 Jo lutio1, for example, )1 not ,'omi
what we were doing to the en'. irouiiiuent. 1o m(ove to,: vir a sub)-
stitution of that planning 1gProcess, in l v1 Vopillion. i> oi 1w thte
wrong way.
(Chairman (hIENN. Thank von xverv ,nc!i.
,Ir. AlalcoliN Moos, foern1e-,) 1tiIlent ()I 11 lI 1ive rsI t vof [inn--

Mr. Mo s. Tllank you,, 7\1,r. ( iiairifcaIi
Many of the reitiarks 1 have h eard heore, 111,u1rh1 ot wiili 1" I uaree


with, it has surfaced the idea of crisis, and I think we are immensely
weary of hearing the word "crisis," the energy crisis, health care
and delivery crisis, now planning crisis.
I would remind you that "crisis" is only the Greek word for
decision. In a similar way, the English definition calls "crisis" a
turning point at which events unfold and are resolved for better or
for worse.
So it is with planning, and so it is with planning crisis. Properly
understood, it can be turned into an opportunity.
In the interests of time, I would like to briefly take a minute for
four or five thoughts that I had on what we might do here in
planning and then a brief concluding comment.
First, I think the need for accurate and better baselines is crucial.
The social indicators effort, which was published in 1973, to me was
a magnificent document, but for some reason this effort has been
Second, it is time to accept the interrelated nature of foreign
and domestic affairs. Therefore, the current neat divisions between
the National Security Council and the Domestic Affairs Council in
the White House to me is absurd and must be realined.
Why not a single, interdependent Council?
I would like to also say, Mr. Chairman, that the same realinement
must be examined here with the congressional committees structure.
The current array of narrowly focused committees and subcommit-
tees provides no integration of points of view that is a necessity
in a changing society and a world changing drastically, as ours is.
Fourth, we still have not given fair consideration to the concept
sponsored for many years by Senator Mondale and others for the
creation of a Council on Social Advisors. Such a body, comparable
to the Council of Economic Advisors, would increase the policy
integration and is called fop,
Once again, as in the case of an ongoing publication, social indi-
cators, this would help enormously in making us understand future
consequences and future reactions.
Of course, and this comes to Mr. Toffler, there is the tremendous
need for public education-and I am not speaking now as a former
educator to award grants to universities for higher education, but
to uplift the level of civic understanding.
It always sounds trite, everything was said before that there is
to say on this, since we have to say it again,- the fact remains that
the bedrocks of our democratic system is the understanding and
support of the informed citizenry. No massive Government agency
even when staffed with experts and stuffed with information can
provide adequate substitute here for the political process and reincar-
nation of a real effort, muscular effort, to uplift the level of civic
The former Minister of Culture of France, Andre Malraux,
once said that the United States would be the first country to pass
directly from barbarism to decadence without undergoing a Golden
I am sure we all reject this, but I must say that I am optimistic
that there are step by step real beginnings we can do in planning,

but that the political process here is at the very basis of Mr. Tofilers
Thank you.
Chairman GLE Thank you. very much.
Mr. Clifford Alexander with a Washinl1gti()I law filn l now. former
Chairman of EEOC-the Equal opportunity y (' oniniissioi(,
Mr. Alexander?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Thank vou, Senator.
I would suggest that the Federal Government needs to find ways
to help, particularly city. governments attract people with corii-
petence, thoughtfulness-in other words, do the same kinds of
things that they would like to do to attract good people to work in
the Federal Government.
Let's take the example of Washington, D.C.
There are a number of people attracted to work on the -ill. How
many of those people. when the vagaries of elections cause their
principals to go home, decide that they want to go to work for the
city government?
How many city governments in this country-cities being where
80 percent of the people live-have the capacity to attract thought-
ful people. creative people. and perhaps, most importantly. have
the contacts with universities and those who would be creative outside
of government?
It is glamorous to be on the Hill. it is glamorous to be involved
in foreign affairs. it is glamorous to run for office. it is not glamorous
to work in the cities of this Nation. where the vast majority of
the citizens get their services and. where it is decided whether or
not the quality of life is worthwhile or whether or not it is going
to be worthwhile for their children.
The quality and thoughtfulness of planning that takes place in
the city governments in this country is poor. at b)est. and disastrous
at worse. Everyone in this room who lives il l ashington or (omes
to Vashingto n-probably most of you in this room have never swn
the inadequacies of this city-but no one is attracting your attention"
to them, certainly not the local government of this city.
It is not only 1Washington. I).(.
It seems to me. what we ought to be doing, the lFederal Government
and our legislators ought to be doing, is determining hlow tie cities
of this Nation and the massive bureaucracies they employ can attract
exciting people.
People day after day who live in cities look to tie local ovrn-
ment to pick up their trash. protect them. inspect their hones, edu-
cate their children. If cleatHiveness am! tlio-lit fIlle iie-s t akep l-tlace in
thousands of cities in this country, it would seem to mie that that
would be the most important di rect ion for oulr future l tteI'1elit.
ChairmnanThank you very niuc. Thev were all excellent

69-838 G 7f)-

Senator Cranston has some other commitments this afternoon. I
know he has some areas of particular interest here, so we will let
him go ahead first, and then I will get back to general questions
later on.
Senator CRANSTON. .- Thank you very much.
Instead of asking a series of questions or one particular question,
I am going to try to provoke discussion in one particular area among
Chairman GLENN. Incidentally, let me ask one thing. I know some
of you are accustomed to the usual committee format where there is
a certain time allocated and we go around in a regular order. We
have tried to structure this so we could have as many differing opinions
and have a conversation type atmosphere. So if we could follow that
type of format that will help us all.
Thank you.
Senator CRAN- STo-N. hat I would like to get at, and hear your
thoughts on, is generally this: in your fields of experience and
expertise, how successful have the so-called experts and the gen-
eralists who are there helping to make decisions been in predicting
the consequences of their actions in the future?
In your studies and experience, and programs relating particularly
to short-term goals, how often are there totally unexpected, often
unfortunate, side effects and long-range consequences that are unde-
sirable and unpredictable?
In your view of history, how often, if ever, have brutal, violent
means really served to justify the purpose toward what might have
been a noble goal?
In our religions and in our laws we Americans condemn, we
punish violence, but it seems to me in our conduct of foreign policy
we engaged in violence as often as not.
We often say what we are doing is because someone else is that
way. We tend, it seems to me, to start to wind up being what we
are seeking to oppose.
Finally, in another aspect of this question of ends and means,
how about deceitful, unethical means? How often, if ever, are they
I am talking now specifically about the use by our Government or
decisionmakers generally of deceit and unethical practices here at
home? I am talking about domestic affairs, not foreign policy; I am
talking about peace, not war.
Here, too, we have evasions and deceits designed by people who
presumably have our best interests in mind, but are designed to
prevent us from knowing what they are really doing because they
know best and they seem knowledgeable. What effect does that have
on our democracy? What tarnishing effect does it have on the
general goals? For example, is lying ever justified by the- leaders
of our country to the people of this country?
This is what I would like to hear your thoughts on generally and
M[r. GRAYSO-N. I will respond to the first part. In the Price Com-
mission, we had a great amount of intervention power and a lot of

expertise available to us. Even so. o}llrI)ve(l vtih T Ix rx r,
in both short-terni and long-ternp predict ahilit\ VIt!
pate side effects, interact is, ad :lht it lollt
place, even when w tried to 'olt'olW 0 eel t)II, variatI(. \V would i)t
possibly look at tHie cvbernet ic effects aii e La
went on.
Mr. Moos. 1 would second tlhat. certainly. Senator.
On mnany projeetios., we have eeii hinnp.... w ite lVir15r
lators get very annoyed at us.
If we go back to one of the first ef orts of this Nation. tryi ng to
put a collar on this, a very distinguished scholar at t lie- vutv
of Chicago on the (1o1m1ssiolof Social TreutL uder !'resident:
Hoover's commission pointd out t!tit thjie i)oIdiil atii,), }ad iwi l l'( i.
from 125 million to 80 million. God awful. bad niistakes, vet it was
an effort to try to forecast.
Mir. TOFFLER. May I suggest that the important thing about
applying a futuristic perspective is not forecasting', it is not gert(ti i-
it right.
The important thing about thinking long term is that it forces
you to consider variables that you otherwise would ignore, that it
opens up more imaginative options for you. that it.>uggert. or
points to opportunities and potential crises. It is not simply a matter
of making a dead-on forecast about something.
Anyone who is looking for that with respect to social processes
or political processes is looking for something that nobody knows
how to deliver.
Anybody who says they know how to deliver them is conning us.
It seems to me that the long-range perspective reqtl', e a n oIire
open approach. as I surgested, a more (ulantitative, more imaginative
process, and one which taps into a lot of people's thinking, not
merely that of a kind of priesthood.
Mr. BARNXET. I would very much agree with that.
I am very allergic to the notion of experts doing planning. When
I was in the Government. I found that it was ve asy tofi
expert to support any position. You often had a r,'eat number of
experts applying to service one particular point of vieV or father.
The same experts ended up servicing different points of ,,ievs QI.
different occasions.
Chairman GLENN. A definition of experts: a man from out of town
with a briefcase.
Mr. BARNET. It comes down to which experts and also what .on
are asking them to do.
In the area that I was talking about in the beginning of my state-
ment, the arms race. you stuidy what some of the, exprts who t
together the atomic bomb wvere ;a-\igrin 1946 19417, 19 1 and
into the 1950's about the whol(, direction of the ari, s rare a ld
national security, and also what some of the political 'ieitist ,ry
saving at that time about the sid(, effee'ts in the, dtol0est ic soc.iet
of a certain kind of military l)olicv. tbe effects o-: (1V1 lier.a
on domestic priorities, for example-at lot (f wat they were a,,
has turned out to be remarkaly accurate.
I suspect that if you are talking about lon-terni trends and
repetition of certain 1)0litinal pc uoesses that have t akei !dare r


history, there is obviously need to be learned from experts. One
example of a historical trend, for example, is the tendency of great
nations to suck resources from cities and to use it for foreign policy
and military ventures. This is not the only country in which that
has happened. We see it throughout history.
Mr. COMMONER. Let me enter a dissent. I am a little uncom-
fortable about the direction of this discussion, first, I think it is
enormously overgeneralized, and second because I think it is not
directed at what I regard to be the source of the mistakes that are
being referred to.
What I would like to do is follow my own precepts and give you
a concrete example, an important one.
We have an energy problem of some sort-I will not use crisis
in deference to Mr. Moos' sensibilities-but we have an energy prob-
lem in that a good deal of effort is being made now, some of it
pretty foolish, to achieve energy independence.
We have a whole apparatus for doing it; we have gone out of
our way.
Everyone knows that that issue came upon us very suddenly. It
was a crisis. It certainly reflected no good planning, and so it is a
good example of the kind of thing that confronts us.
Why did that come about?
Actually we have a record. There is a remarkable density of
information about that. All you have to do is dig it out and you
get the answer.
It did not come about because the experts were not competent to
plan. It came about because the purposes which governed the pro-
duction of energy in the United States were defined by private
profit rather than social value, and I say that flatly.
To me, there is an enormous social necessity that this country
have a reliable, ongoing source of energy. So it is socially essential
that we have a system for continuing to produce energy in a reliable
A good deal of our energy is not delivered from the oil fields of
the United States and, as Mr. Grayson pointed out, we rely on the
marketplace economics to develop that kind of activity.
I want to make a very simple point. The actual operation of
marketplace economics led to the energy crisis. It was an inevitable
consequence of it.
Because the criterion, even for searching for oil, was profitability.
If you like I will give you a rough example, quoting from memory,
a paper delivered by a prominent oil executive to geophysicists con-
cerning the way in which geophysics should operate to find oil.
He said you think that the purpose of geophysics is to find oil.
That is not right.
The purpose of geophysics is to find oil at a profit.
I can give you the quotation. I am now citing a paper given by
the president of Continental Oil Co. in 1956. The remarkable title
for the paper, "How to Become a Foreign Oil Company," because
before that period, Continental was a purely domestic oil company
and it went foreign, and he said why.

Because they noticed that the rate of return on itivest merts in
foreign oil was 28 percent wli ere tlWeIV were, getting 11 )r1- l t-ht 0 11
domestic oil. As a result of that. thle cal-4f fl1v carrie(I out their
own purposes, which was to prodhice oil at a l)riofit. S -((h ily so lite
years later, we discovered that the pir poses of society la( Ilot bven
carried out. The social purpose of oil production is that w, sliould
have a reliable source of oil.
I will make a very simple point, that the problem here lies in
defining who the master or the expert is. An iexp(irt is supposed to
serve. Whom does he serve, the profitability of the oil company, or
the country.
I can give you a series of other examples of the failure to under-
stand what is happening in the country with regard to production
and with regard to environmental pollution. The ozone problem is
another good example.
When the fluorocarbons were produced, what was the bottom line?
I assure you when an engineer walked into the I)u PIont lnaliage-
ment and said, we have this new substance here, and it will squirt
whipped cream out of a can, the question was not asked of him,
how is the country going to feel about that. What they asked him
was, what is the bottom line, how is it going to affect our profit
No one asked about the ozone, because the company did not have
a social purpose, it has a profit purpose. As far as I am concerned,
the problems that the country faces from now on require that we
openly examine the question as to whether the governancv pro
duction in this country can be carried out in a way to save the
country or is it primarily governed by private profit.
I think we have to ask the question whether the capitalistic
economic system is going to be able to serve, the country in the
Mrs. BUNTING. I would like to make a modest proposal which
perhaps would pull together the threads that a number of us have
been spinning here, and propose that we think about the establish-
ment of a National Foundation for Social Change or for the il~rpo-e's
of Society, to use your phrase, a place to which the State of Wash-
ington, if it had not been enlightened enough to do it itself, could
have gone for the funds to carry out its experiment. Experiinelltin,
as distinct from master planning, is the essence of tHe scientific
Mr. Toffler gave a beautiful illustration of what I was tryiiig to
say. If there were a foundation to which cities or organizat1()ns
could go for funds, a foundation that would decide which propos-als
looked most fruitful from the standpoint of the 'purp(ses',, of so-
ciety," could make awards, and ask that the experlimelts b oeval-
uated and the results made generally available we could be, ri. to
build the data-base and the understandin. that we ne(d. A gr(,at
variety of people would be taking part, hope fl ly. As our it-ider -
standing grew it would become worthwhile to shift from sall pilot
projects to larger and more ('ontlrehensive proPraIIns.
That is the general process which I think several of us have in
mind here although we descri be it differently.

Chairman GLENN. Thank you.
I want to let Senator Cranston's question get full answer here,
because he did leave. I would like to bring this back a little bit and
start through areas that were outlined on this agenda here, and
maybe get comments on these specific areas.
So far, we have addressed quite a number of specifics here, the
things that Barry was talking about, and things that you talked about,
Mr. Toffler. I would like to bring us back to the mechanisms by
which these decisions are made, which is the basic thing we are
trying to hit, rather than address ourselves to the specific problems
of economics, specific problems of the environment, the fluorocar-
bons, or whatever.
How are these decisions made? By what mechanisms could we
make or control or direct our efforts in the future in this area?
I think we should go back to our No. 1 item in the agenda, what
role should Government play?
It is already obvious that we have conflicting views here, for
example, on the economy versus the planning that goes on in that
area versus the free economy. That is an area that has to be dragged
out for separate consideration or special treatment.
Would you care to address yourself specifically to what role should
Government play in the setting of long-term goals and the setting
of strategies for achieving these goals?
Mr. COMMONER. Let me give you an easy point.
One thing is clear, that the Government has been doing a great
deal to collect needed information, but I think it still needs to do a
great deal more in a different way.
In recent years, some of us have started to look at production
statistics, how much energy is used, and so forth. The Department
of Commerce puts out a great deal of information.
We have discovered that it is organized in terms that are no
longer relevant. Let me give you a specific example.
It becomes extremely important right now to know what resources
are being used such as a national fiber or a synthetic fiber, soap
or detergent. These data can help you judge what has happened to
the country and what will happen as we switch very rapidly from
one to the other.
As it happens, the Department of Commerce categorizes those
two things. For example, the statistics are given for an industry
called soap and detergents; the statistics are given-fibers are broken
down to some extent-but if you wanted to break out the weaving
of fibers, you cannot separate the data natural and synthetic.
'And I think it would be very valuable for the Department of
Commerce, and also for the Department of Labor, to examine in
total the changes of the character of production during the last
25 years and to reorganize this data collection system, so that we
do not have a merging of numbers which obscures the things that
we want to know.
Also, there is an example in the census of agriculture, which is
again a very important thing. We have been studying the use of
fertilizer by farmers. What we discovered was that when the farmers
are asked to fill out the census form, he is instructed to carry through


a calculation which exactly obscures Ilie iiiiiiilber t hat wwi1(11ilke
to have-how much nitrogen is ilI t1w le atevial ttlat Ie l: s bo, ilit
It seems to me that it wuo t id he very important. heca 'se tllbte e are
enormous V valuable statistics.
I could tell youi the ,data Wvli is aVaila!)l(isfIwi Ole V U.S. (;(ox
ernllellt oi our r ir(ductiol sstei c, )l:lfre(l to) oil er co( iItrn{, it -
remarkably better than aliwiost a, other (,mmir v. btit I thilk it
could be eiiorniotisly i mpr)ovedt Lx e([tal)l is ig i, XX11 vil, riat 11 01 aris(
out of our recent experiments.
I know the I departmentt of (lonimercepople wo I rba!l\ get
pale at the thought of re(doig- all of tHe coil)l1ter pr)gValL. i (t -Jo
on, but I really think that this has to be looked at very carefully.
I think gathering data in a forh thlat is ziiaxii l. lIpifilli to
understanding the lar"e-sc(ale Ilovenliets ali (I cl la e i tl ,11 \
in which we use our resources are extremely import.:rit.
That is a noncontroversial problem.
Chairman GLENN. What role should (overnent1)lav.
Mr. ToFFLER. I would like to comment on that.
All too frequently the discussion of wheNther (oVermnent should
engage in planning breaks into two polarized piees. ()n the one
hand, there are those defenders of the maket ,svst em wIio
at the thought of Government planning of any kind. On the other
hand, there are those who are socialist-oriented and b ieve tiat
Government must plan.
One of the implications of extremely rapidly change oXer tthe piast
decade-and the likelihood of further rapid change in tlie next
generation-is that all of our ideologies are becownin2 obsolete. We
should not allow ourselves to become locked into those ol( id eoioica
Therefore, my own position is that I have. no doct-ial oric
theoretical objection to Government engaging in planning. nor oI0
I have any doctrinal objection to the market system. The niarket
system does function with remarkable sensitivity to certain kiinL
of issues.
It seems to me that we have to get rid of our ideological 1)aa
on the planning question. Also, I disagree that ou ir choice v e ,
centralization or decentralization. Sonie l)roblenls Pc i ir'e u ui I
attention, these don't. We nee(l to look at those decisions t ,
best be made lower dowtn in the s ;ter.
I want to coeI back to a -I t of the Issh t 1 .
away from. I aree on the( n.eed to wl lerct t), teE1 tat a. Tliel\ vt ii i
political scientists and econoiwi tscall the lh(h r' 'f i, ll o t i ,"at-
ories in our inrmatioi system. I 'ree withIi t I vit 8 I ary'e
1t t \we ha (Icdo I 1loLtXXjb n ,nitol it :0ou rI
But the real issue gotes ,:vIi letto data. I XVU ave '
at all about Americas tli nt i tile ludai.11oqI 11
are the political value (lue'ti(i what do Xe Xant ti-( ~ t,, v o
look like in the year 2(0), if inde1d1i tit i oiu t" V, a Nit
in the year 2000.
INVhIt t~~ ftcloo o''wi~moro'lv

What kind of fainily stiiture dohd we \want iii this ocie(t .\ Fa Iiv
structures are changing witlh extren(e rapidity in this SoiANv. -1, are


moving away from the traditional industrial nuclear family to all
sorts of other models. What do we want to say about America's
future in terms of its family structure?
What do we mean by work and education?
What mix do we want between human services and manufactur-
ing and agriculture?
What do we want to do about the process of deurbanization that
is now beginning to take place?
How much resource independence or interdependence do we want?
What about reserves and stockpiles of resources of one kind or
All of these are questions that involve massive value judgments.
They are not simple, technical questions to be solved simply by the
collection or integration of more data. It seems to me that we
have an opportunity now, on the threshold of America's next cen-
tury, to make some sharp, political statements about what we want
this country to look like. And I would urge that that be a top
priority. I do not derogate the importance of the technical work
that has to be done, but I think this country, and many other in-
dustrial countries are now in a profound political crisis, a crisis
of parliamentary government. They need not simply to find better
data or better, more efficient methods. They need to define a whole
new direction. The crisis presents the opportunity for a new start
in a new world.
We face a situation in which our raw materials are not going
to be available to us on the terms they were in the past, and that is
probably good for the human race. We face a situation in which
we cannot continue, as Dr. Commoner has so dramatically pointed
out many times, to use energy and other resources in the way that
we have.
So these are fundamental-fundamental, not trivial--changes..
Basically, I believe what is happening is that our society is moving
beyond traditional industrial society. Industrialism is not just a
matter of factories and mass production. It is a certain kind of a
family system, a certain bureaucratic form of organization. It is a
matter of a certain value system. It is a certain way of dealing with
time, space and so on. Industrialism is a civilization.
This civilization, which is not just American, but also dominant
in Western Europe and in Japan and even in the Communist coun-
tries of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union-this civilization, I
think, is coming apart at the seams. It is on an edge of either
collapse or a forward movement into some new kind of social system
that nobody has a handle on. That is the reason why so many of
our systems are in crisis, our energy system, our family system, our
political system, our economic system. The reason they are in crisis
is that industrialism as a way of life has played itself out and that
we are now moving to a new stage of development. We are not
moving backward into some pretechnological form of society. We
are moving foward into some kind of new, technological, social
and cultural structure. This is a transition greater than the Industrial
Revolution of 300 years ago.
The Industrial Revolution was accompanied by wars and revolu-
tions and strikes and demonstrations and poverty, hunger, and if we

are to make the kind of transition from industrialism to t he next
system, whatever that is, without all of that turmoil an(1 il a worl([
bristling with nuclear weaponry, we had better do some Ionls-ranw'
thinking about the transition and determine for ourselves, "Where
do we want to go?"
Now I know of only two political parties in the world that have
begun to address themselves to this absolutely basic question. LothI
of them are virtually unknown in this country. ()ne of thein is tile
Values Party in New Zealand and the other one is the Australia
The Australia Party put to the voters recently the question, "W'hat
kind of Australia do you want in the year 2000".I And it seems to me
that is precisely what we are about. That is what these hearings
ought to be about.
I would urge that we ask ourselves what an America 2000 should
look like. That is not a trivial question or an escape from the im-
mediate problems, but a way of shedding light on those inimediate
Chairman GLENN. What role do you think Government should
play, though? Should it be a directive Government role or general
planning, general guidelines?
Mr. TOFFLER. The Government certainly has a role in the collection
and integration of information. And certainly there are issues like
foreign policy and very large, macroeconomic problems that require
Government to play a significant role.
But the question of what a preferable future should be for this
country should not be answered in Washington. That answer must
come from a process involving millions and millions of people.
Even on more technical questions, like energy problems, we are
already beginning to have some models on how to reach more or less
democratic decisions. The Swedish government recently. faced by
the question of what their energy policy should be, instead of going
the usual route of inviting all of the experts to a meeting, held study
groups all over Sweden involving 70,000 or 80.000 people from all
political parties to suggest alternative energy policies, and in fact,
these ordinary citizens came up with positions that persuaded the
government to change its own policy.
So I think what we begin to see are new forms of planning, new
forms of involvement, and that those are what we have to con-
centrate on.
Chairman GLEN N. Yes, but what I am getting at is what role
would Government play, though. as we see it right now?
I don't think any of us feel that we could have a 200-million-man
town meeting, which is in effect what you would be suggestingc.
Mr. TOFFLER. You can't have one 200-million-person town meet-
ing, but I am sure you could have a lot of them around the country.
I think the suggestion that Dr. Bunting made about support to
those activities is an important one.
I myself have proposed a National Participation Act. for example,
which would supply some support for these kinds of activities
around the country with a National Institute for Participation
which would study how you might use electronic media for these


purposes, what other countries are doing with forms of participation
which go far beyond our own. We ought to be looking at worker
participation. We ought to be looking at consumer participation.
All of these forms. Because what we are developing very rapidly,
is a society in which 220 million people feel that they do not have a
pi. : of the action.
MJr BARNET. Could I make one suggestion?
I completely agree with Mr. Toffler that participation is essential
and that this is, in fact, the fundamental crisis we have in the
political system. If the projections are correct, half the people who
are eligible, are not going to vote in 1976.
I think that says in a very dramatic way what you are getting at.
Government does have a way now through very specific legislative
proposals to make a reality, or begin to make a reality of the kind
of thing that you are talking about.
We have lower level political subdivisions now in our cities,
neighborhoods, where there exist the possibilities for people to
make fundamental plans about their life on a manageable political
What we do not have is an overarching structure which would
make that anything other than play activity.
The Washington experiment is fine. But if, in fact, it is only
play activity, an invitation to dream, it does not become an important
activity. There is not much point in asking citizens what kind of a
State they would like Washington to be when everybody really
knows Washington is going to be the kind of State that the De-
fense Department, Boeing, and other powerful forces decide it is
going to be.
I think we ought to take seriously some of the rhetoric we have
had recently, decentralization, revenue sharing, et cetera. A. city
like New York could begin now to have a much greater share over
its own revenue collections plus a much greater share in making
national policy.
I do not see, for example, why the people of New York, through
their city council should not have some important say in how much
of our resources go into the Defense budget.
Chairman GLEN-.-. Mr. Moos, what role do you think Government
should play?
We keep bringing up the same question. I am being repetitive for
a purpose.
Mr. Moos. I think pounding beneath the surface, several mis-
givings have already been expressed about Government being some
kind of supreme factotum here to somehow orchestrate all planning.
I think it should orchestrate planning, but I think we are pulling
together some very interesting and exciting adventurous trends here.
Mr. Toffier, in his comments, one of the facts we face in political
life today is the question of somehow, there seems to be a moral
superiority that there be an independence or expansionism. We have,
in our professional journals today, scholars who say one of the best
things to do is abstain from voting. That is how you do it. You go
in the other direction for 50 years and have people vote. It is a
desirable idea.


What we have to do, it strikes me. is to attempt in some way to
get our political parties to coiie forwai rd ad l have solietlil t dt() (1o.
In a sense, the media has displaced its traditional role of tl(. party.
It goes right over t heir tIlads, and somlelho,, if I nliav go() Ik to
the depression, when I was in college in te iAidivest I recall. Nfr.
Toxer the beverage plan, which, like the Values Party iii. Alist ralia
had a magnificent kind of doctrine of what a party could to and
You've still got this 2-, 4-, 6-year cycle. I would like to see telie
parties having something to (1o. perhaps by way of developing a
preliminary state of the Union message for the party out of po\weI',
a shadow government.
This takes us away, it seems to me, from having this ordained by
Government itself. At the same time, I believe we all agree. andl I
agree with Mr. Commoner, that the marketplace as we traditionally
know it is failing. Otherwise, how do we have recession, depression,
inflation at the same time.
As I am sure the bill that Senator Javits, and my senior Senator
from Minnesota, Mr. Humphrey, would produce-
Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, I have one observation. The
matter that you speak about regarding a state of the Union for the
minority is contained in a bill called the National Institutions Act,
which I have introduced and which calls for a number of things,
including a counsel for Congress and interpolations of Cabinet offi-
cials, et cetera. You might be interested to see that.
Mr. Moos. I am delighted to hear that.
May I add one postscript, Mr. Chairman, and that is we have to
dream, and dream large. For years, we concentrated, as a former
executive for the Ford Foundation, how do we scrub tip our cities?
How do we get rid of what Jefferson anticipated, the pestilential
city, and do something about it?
And we have microcities now, and they are coming along strong.
Industry is way ahead of government. And decentralizing and get-
ting the people a beautiful community of 40,000 or 50,000, this is
the sort of thing I believe Mr. Tofiler is alluding to in the post-
industrial age here. It is a whole new spirit of our system, and this
is what we ought to be concentrating on.
Chairman GLENN. Mr. Grayson, what role should government
play, not just in the economics that you spoke about, but in general,
across the board?
Mr. GRAYSON. One quick dissent," I do not agrree that the American
system is failing. I think in the midst of the problems-reces-ion.
inflation and so on-we are living in an age of abundance. We all
have a higher standard of living in many ways than other parts of
the world. This is one of the few times in man's history that man
has been able to live without scarcity or deprivatio, witi a ri eatly
reduced level of disease, and with a much higher education level.
I remind people that even with the faults of the market system.
it has produced tremendous gains.
To your question, Senator, on what can be done ? A thi ng that
could be considered would be for government--the Federal (Ov1,en-
ment particularly-to fund some demonstration projects such- as


Mr. Tofflier pointed out in the State of Washington. I never heard of
it other than generally speaking-
Mr. TOFFLER. There are many States engaged in experiments of
this kind.
Mr. GRAYSON (continuing). To publicize them, to fund them
further, such as you suggested. The goals for Dallas program is such
a grassroots participation political process where people participated
in the design of goals.
The goals were then made available for other institutions to
implement. They did not urge the creation of a suprainstitution in
order to implement those goals.
So, specifically, what could be done? Fund and publicize demon-
stration grants, studies with seed grants to increase the involvement
of people in the political process at the grassroots level.
Chairman GLENN. That goes somewhat into our third area here.
Cliff, what role do you think that Government should play in the
setting of long-term goals?
Mr. ALEXANDER. It seems to me we are skimming at the wrong
place. We are talking about participatory democracy that would
probably involve middle class and above coming to town meetings,
voting on what goals ought to be, setting those goals for universities.
There are certain obvious things that we can see that are shifting
in this society. We can see the state of housing, we can see the
decay of inner cities no matter what kinds of Restons and Columbias
we are building up. Those exist and those are spreading.
So it is imperative that government without a mandate or with-
out a vote or without several town meetings start planning on how
it will achieve, as we went to the moon and did other things, housing
people safely by the year 2000, getting garbage off the streets by
the year 1980.
There are some goals that can be achieved without all of the
The most immediate ones, perhaps, are those goals. How do you
get the best minds, if you will, the best technical help for that?
Again, the government can be of assistance. There is a need for
direction, obviously, from the executive branch.
I do not think that we have to go through the participatory
process to recognize the most important goals we ought to have,
which is to make it better for the lower third, if you will, of the
Chairman GLENN. Would it be fair to say you have to break these
down into things that have to be done in certain time periods?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Absolutely.
Chairman GLENN. You are talking about the immediate problem
of garbage in the street as opposed to talking about fusion power
in the year 2000 or whatever. It seems to me you have to break it
down into time periods and what your objectives-
Mr. ALEXANDER. I don't. Even though fusion power is something
that I don't understand, it certainly affects people as much as getting
garbage off the streets, because it will affect whether they will
have electricity. I don't mean that because a problem is a little more
exotic it doesn't have as much of an impact. I do not think we need


referendums and town meetings to make those decisions. We know
those are there. AVhat is required is setting goals. It requires (jleci(liig
how our resourcest areP olg to 1)e it ilized. (IeCidilIg Whet le' we ;ra
going to spend money in Anrola or in this area or one of ttle cities
in this country.
Chairman GLEN. It sort of brings into focus then to what extent
has past inattention to long-term planning resulted in the immediate
problems that you are talking about now. If we had planned a long
time ago for garbage collection of some kind, maybe it wouldn't l)e
piling up in the streets now.
Mr. COM-MUNER. Let me make a point on that.
I think that we are giving the Government an easy way out,
talking about future foundations, and so on.
The Government's greatest power is what it does today, and I
find that the most serious hindrance to effective planning is that the
government is setting a bad example.
Take, as an example, the SST. There hasn't been any discussion
of the role of the SST in the future of the transportation system.
Take, for example, the enormous expense that the government has
gone to in dealing with the northeast railroads.
Planning a program which obviously will have to be turned
around the other way in 10 years, because it is clear that the rail-
roads are the most efficient way that we can convert fuel in the
movement of freight and people. Yet, every Government proposal,
from the original DOD plan to the Conrad plan involves lopping
off large trunks of the northeast railway system, shifting the freight
to trucks, which will burn up four times as much fuel per ton mile.
Clearly, as that fuel becomes expensive and less available, we will
wish we had those tracks back.
Now, in none of the discussions of the Government's activities,
even in these hallowed halls, do I know of a consideration of this
immediate problem that reflects the concept of future planning.
And so I would say, let the Government set a good example. Let
Mr. Colman tell us where he thinks our transportation system is
going rather than that we should tolerate noise at Dulles or Kennedy.
Chairman GLENN. I will not take the other side on that except to say
what we are trying to do at these hearings is to find out how we
can better focus on not only government brainpower but the brain-
power such as your own and other groups and foundations and
studies and so on around the country to try to bring them to bear
on exactly what you are addressing, the SST, the railroads, or
I do not think it is government versus everybody else at this point.
I think it is trying to get together with everybody else and set up
some mechanisms by which we can better address these things in the
That was my intent in trying to set up these hearings.
I agree with you that government is woefully inefficient in this
area. I can give more examples than you can shake a stick at. just
having been around here for 1 year. I am sure Senator Javits can
deal us right out of the park here on areas of inefficiency that I
have not even thought of yet.


That is what we are trying to do. First, try to define the role of
what government should play in general, maybe with the exception
of the economic area. We agree that government can provide a role
in this area, and I think maybe it would be time before all move
on to dealing with some of the experience that you gentlemen have
had, and ladies have had, in your dealings with government. You have
all participated in dealing with government from the private sector
or have been in government yourselves, and have a knowledge of
what government is doing in this regard in the area of future plan-
ning and trying to define where it is particularly inefficient or deficient,
and what areas are working well. Are there .particular areas that we
need to address that would be areas of prime concern right now?
Well, we have a Domestic Council, for instance, what is it doing?
We had some discussions of that this morning. Does that need to be
changed? Do we need to go to the Smithsonian type function the Vice
President tossed out as a possible suggestion this morning, and that
I mentioned earlier.
What is government doing in regard to trying to direct the best
energies of the country in certain directions, and is it deficient?
Could we address that?
Mr. TOFFLER. I would like to speak directly to that. Also, in part,
it answers the question you were desperately trying to get the
answer to earlier without a great deal of success.
There are certain things that I think are beginning to happen
here in Congress itself. For example, in the House of Representatives
a year ago, House Resolution 988 was passed which called for all
standing committees of the House, with the exception of the Appro-
priations and Budget, to engage in not only oversight but in fore-
sight. It gave a specific mandate for committees to begin making
long-range studies of the problems within their purview.
That may very well be duplicated here in the Senate.
The author of that provision, Senator Culver, was then in the
House and is the author of a resolution calling for a Commission on
the procedures of the Senate.
Well, that might be one very simple place to begin right at home
in the Senate by requiring committees to look at which are the
long-term implications or possibilities of the subjects under concern.
I think that one might require impact statements attached to
legislation. I think we need to develop a policy for technology.
There is in this country, so far as I can determine, nothing re-
motely approximating a technological policy-some attitude toward
what kind of technologies we want to develop over the long run
and which ones we don't want in this society. We are going to have
to make those kinds of choices, and they cannot be made solely by
the market-without such a policy, we cannot deal with unemploy-
ment. We cannot deal intelligently with any of the immediate prob-
lems we face.
So I would like to also see the creation of some mechanism for
formulating long-range technological policies for the country and
again would suggest that the Congressional Office of Technology
Assessment is a step in that direction.



I think that obviously the changes in budget procudires here on
the Hill have been important steps forward. H'le' Iototily make
possible a more global look at the budget, they also 'qu "(' lo)II('i
term assessments.
So that there have been certain encouraging steps. They are.
however, still small, and I tlink very e x1erileItal, steps.
More than simply the creation of another agency or proedure
v Congress or the Federal Government can apply two"eli-
eral policies or perspectives that cut across everything.
One of them has to do with what I call the denatioilal ization of
policy, or alternatively, the decentralization of certain policies.
As more and more decisions concentrate here, the Federal Gov-
ernment is going to have to allow some of those decisions to be
made in the regions of this country, in the States and cities.
Chairman GLE NN. A decentralization.
That is one way of encouraging a longer range view of things,
because if Congress is so taken up with the intense bombardment of
immediate problems, there is never an opportunity of taking a longer
range view.
The second thing is to recognize that planning in a society cannot
be isolated in a single node. It must be organic throughout the
system. So that, therefore, one of the best things the Federal Gov-
ernment could do would be to actually encourage planning through-
out the private and voluntary sector for example, by hospitals, by
schools, by business organizations, and so on.
Chairman GLENN. Microplanning as compared to macroplanning
Mr. TOFFLER. Right.
But then collecting data from them for some sort of integration.
Chairman GLENN. I keep on with the question, what is Govern-
ment presently doing in this regard, and is it in any way deficient ?
Anyone else have a comment?
Mr. ALEXANDER. It might also be useful if some planning took
place to see if those acts, that have been passed, have in fact been
implemented and what is expected at a given time.
The Housing Act of 1949 called for decent, sanitary, and safe
housing for everyone. Obviously, that has not been done.
The Equal Employment Act of 1964 called for no racial, religious,
sex, or national origin employment discrimination. But, discrimina-
tion is obviously taking place in the same way it was when the
act was passed in 1964.
So the concepts come out and perhaps they have been planned for
and again, we should check on how it has been implemented. Agai.
there is no method of achieving-
Chairman GLENN. We introduced a bill yesterday, Senator Muskie
was the prime author of it, and I was on with him as a CospIonsor
and a couple of other people too, which would do that. It requires
a reevaluation at not longer than 4-year intervIls-a zero bIse evalu:-
tion. What would happen if we (11 awa W v1 W itlili the, l mog!al ,.l-
pletely, what. would happen if we did away wit i5I percent. arn
so on, and require that reevaluation of both the executive branch
and legislative branch of Government before we go on.


I just throw that in. There is something moving on that.
Senator Javits, I do not mean to be monopolizing.
We have been doing sort of a general discussion basis. If you
have some specific questions
Senator JAVITS. I am sitting here running three or four com-
Chairman GLENN. When you want to hop in here, just jump in.
We are carrying this on a general, roundtable discussion.
Mr. Moos. You have asked repeatedly, Mr. Chairman, what can
Government do.
Chairman GLENN. What is Government doing?
Mr. Moos. It strikes me that Thomas Jefferson instead of Walt
Disney should be the dominant theme for the Bicentennial. There
are some great things that Government can do.
This recent report that 20 percent of our society is illiterate-now,
the Government did establish the Peace Corps, which really, I think,
uplifted the spirits of our youth in a great way in the 1960's. It was
a marvelous venture. It had some blemishes, of course, but it strikes
me that Government could plan here about illiteracy programs.
What could be more important here, as we are trying to improve
civic understanding, that our people be literate?
That, I think, ties in also to what has been suggested here.
Chairman GLENN. If you have had suggestions in the past that
you wanted to make in Government, did you know who to talk to
or to make a suggestion, or did you rely on a legislator you happened
to know?
I am getting back again to our question here of what is Government
presently doing as far as accepting suggestions from the private
sector and trying to do something about them?
Mr. Moos. Well, my experience, Mr. Chairman, was principally as
a ghostwriter, so I did illicit things, like bootlegging ideas into
Mr. GRAYsoN. I know the executive branch has an Office of Public
Liaison established in the White House. There might be considera-
tion of a similar one in the Congress.
It seems as though everyone should know the process by which to
contact political institutions, but the truth of the matter, is most
people don't. I don't know how it would be structured.
At least it would start to work on the problem, which may involve
educational programs at the grassroots level. Such an Office of Con-
gressional Liaison would work for the whole Congress, not just for
individual Congressmen.
Mr. Moos. This has been a complaint, I might add, that the small-
er cities, 30,000, 40,000, 75,000 do not have staff for the people to
participate in this so-called grantsmanship, where to go to help get
aid, that they need perimeters to assist them
Chairman GLENN. There are 1,700 and some programs in one book
like this [indicating].
Mr. COMMONER. There is one recent government experience that
I think is good and should be expanded and I think it could do a lot.
The environmental impact statement is a real innovation and I
think that it has done an enormous amount to insert long-range
examinations considerations into immediate actions.

I thin k th at whvlat iNo e' it (, is tim impact sat(L' t, o Iven for te
environnient, isD OW 11(d1er,att'ack bee ,, se soi l1 si iess iit( rests feel
that it exposes tOo l uch of ti lidIrt. Itlier thlan dij111ilisli it, it
should )e exlmndedT. I woZld like to see i I)act statenlelits 1icillode
ecoloic impact, social impact, tlid effect oil re(2Ao11a alit ollolny,1 a (lli
SO Ol.
In other words, if a w i kiiid of poli'v act. allla2"o1s to lu eNa-
tional Enironmental olicYv A t laidi ot t le act t1lat ever V goverii-
ment action has to l)e taken wit h all expllicati10 of low it relates I)
other problems, how it relates to futiire situations. I thiiik w \vevo i id
not be in the situation thlat I criticized before rettIlg slloit ra lloe
looks at tIinios.
For examplle, 5,Oill 1U)c]: to tite ])Oiit I criticized a]otit t lie hortI-
east railXwavs, the etivi'mlneiltal iniaect statelieilit O(I liat was a
joke. It was totally ltd croms. It was iot really laid out ill alv detail.
It did not follow tlte procedures.
It seeins to me talt i Ihat act -we e reqiiired. or(ele to Ihave a
ood e nvironinietal policy act. much less. all eilipiovnle lt pol icv
statement, and an economic policy statelnmlt, we would know "a
lot better what, to do aboii t the railroads.
I think this is a sgrood point to start toward the direction of tintdinir
better ways for the 5overNhlent to (ret ilto plaill111"i.
Chairman GLENN. That hasn't been brought out before, eitlier, liat
i nI)at statements are a inetliod of forcing people to think into it e
fut ure.
Mr. I3ARNEr. There is one way we mild really test tle issue tlimt
has come up amoni us several tilnes about lw well the market f' uc-
tions. We could require some very specific information fr'om corl)m-a-
tions which would enable us, first to determine how well the market
is actually functioning with respect to kev sectors of the econlolu,
and would also provde information for the develope)it of a-
quate government 1)oliey, if. ill fiet, tile market is lot T linetliolili, .
Let me give you some examples. I donit see wly we shoutldit -Isk a
corporation for an impact stateinenit oil say, teehni.lo.ical develol-
ment, what kind of teclhnolo2lcal develo mneiit are they contenplzi.t-
ilmo, for the next 5 years. 10 veirs, wlat social needs womithIilis Ileet.
iUder what theory do they set tliei o Opriorities for tec 'oloica 1
d(evelopIment ?
I Avoild make tite same 1)(flilt witi relnect to J})bs. V'ihat is t lei
projection over the P,(,ext )yeV's for how Iuai\v jobsi ar Ilikely t)1w
created or lost in tlleir particular inliditstrv. ( oVe0iuIiCit tlieul couwldi
beY'ii to plan at wlistever level sc(ijis :tlo1)VI)rilite to LietI l i't cI"is.
The Executive (lice of' weI'resideiit o t,,ljt tlell to W, :lale to !lt
those areas where it is uuiauitfestlY 'e rI liat tie iiaiket I i"s coll )>,d.
Let me give von one examl)le. It this citV. and it Is 'tim r *111 ,Vtirv
other eity t l at I lave visited retail )food( deliverly P0 ii 1r a reas 1-c s
collapsed. It is clear that t int( jaor food 'ctlinis llave simply left the
inner city in nany areas: an1d tie result is t tlit u11a *v e ople. i l ile
city and others. peoplee. nostY lOo i do Int lma ye at(Tss t-:4"It) 'a tH' l.
At thiat point it ()t' lIt to he a pliule co icernl of 'i( l' executive ()lice
to determine what (10 we do two \ ?)o we ,,iye special 21'alts to) citi's
to set up alternative co-ops or to set ill) ai hteintl\ye sYstenil fo r
alternative food delivery systems, or what.
69 s 1, ; -76..


But I think that instead of having a debate in generalities about
where the market is working or whether it is or not, let's have an
agency that really is mandated to look at those places where the
economy in fact is not working properly.
Chairman GLENN. I might add. with our suggestions for impact
statements, this comes, of course, at a time when we are trying des-
peratelv to cut down ol the paper work that we are throwing at
people all over the country, so it may fly right in the face of that one.
I think that before time gets away from us here completely we
might move on to the third question and get into that area of our de-
ficiencies and what can be done to improve the efforts.
Some suggestions have already been made, of course.
Can we really reform existing institutions, or do we require the
development of new institutions and realinements along functonal
lines? President Nixon at one time suggested-I thought one of the
better suggestions that came out in his tenure of office-was his sug-
"est-ion that we, realinetheexecutive branch along functional lines.
He ran that up the flagpole and no one saluted so he ran it down
again and never brought it out and nothing ever happened on it
really. I think until we get around to really realining-as any good
1)usine's would do--yon would realine to perform the functions that
have to be performed. and we haven't done that in our executive
branch or legislative branch. So perhaps that is one thought on
where to start.
But in addressing" our third question would you care to comment on
ideas, either the Vice President's idea of using the Smithsonian.
since it has private, public, executive, legislative, and judicial sup-
port as a repository for a study group like this or for a long-range
goal-setting advisory group, or should it be done in the departments
of Government?
How can we improve this other than the specifics that have been
addressed here already today.
I. TOFFLER. I would like to suggest that we don't need a prolif-
eration of think tanks. And we especially don't need a proliferation
of think tanks that are not accountable.
Chairman GLENX. Let me follow up on that before you go ahead.
How do we take existing think tanks and make sure that their in-
put to Government is heard and considered and doesn't gather dust
on somebody's shelf ?
Mr. TOFFLER. That's a much more-
Chairman GLExx. You might have the most original thinking in
the world in a particular area. and unless somebody listens to it and
considers it, or unless you get a champion to pick up your cause and
run with it, nothing happens.
What's the mechanism we can improve there?
Mr. TOFFJlER. That is a much more difficult problem, and I don't
know the answer to that. One can come up with a series of mech-
anisms like the Legislative Liaison Office, a way of inviting people
wbo are now unheard in the society-and that includes poor people,
but it also includes the middle class, rich, and executives. All sorts
of people feel that they can't talk to the Government-that they have
ideas that can't be fitted into the system, that he sysem is somehow
impermeable, inpenetrable for them.